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Forums > Social Discussion > Intelligent Design vs Evolution

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ok so first read this http://www.venganza.org/
i mean really!!!! wtf?!?!?!?! i just cant get over how censored censored censored censored censored censored censored censored this is.

*deep cleansing breath*

ok so how is it that any educated person (as one would assume the Kansas School Board would be required to have some level of education?) or even a mildly retarded chimp for that matter would even consider adding something like ID to a science curriculum?

Now if the ID group where to be taking a page or two from Cellular Automata (which evolution essentially is just in a much more complex environment with more complex survival/interaction rules) and add that the resulting now is possibly the result of design by choosing the rules such that it would evolve in such a way to have created the given now, or that the soul's link to the real world might be the apparently random quantum tunnelling effects that take place in the microtubules (yet another CA) in the brain then i wouldnt have such a big problem with their proposal. both of which are horribly speculative and cant be proven but both allow for the concept of "god" to be introduced to highlight that science doesnt have all the answers

i suppose next we will be using the fox network for our history classes? confused
/end vent


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


strugz
strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...
Member Since: 6th Mar 2002
Total posts: 3964
Posted:i read it and it made me laugh lots.......

spagetti monster and pirates altering the weather climate ubblol ubbrollsmile ubblol

Then i realised they were being serious about what they were saying................. ubblol

I think im missing the point of this Ben, do you have to be intelligent to understand, or am i having trouble because i havnt evolved properly...... yet wink

weavesmiley


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:science is based on repeatable experiments not faith
religion is based on faith

religion has no place in a science class room as Bobby Henderson illustrates very well. ID is propoganda by the church in a effort to maintain bums in pews, its just so very very wrong angry mmmm i know hows about another crusade oh wait i forgot the war on terror my bad rolleyes

what chance to kids have at being good at science when they are getting fed censored like ID?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:written by my kind of person...if logic doesn't work show them what they are doing in a different light i.e. make up a load of sh1t and substanciate it with made up facts and figures. if you liked that then this little gem will have you believing in god in no time at all. ubblol wink

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:one word: religion

there's a paper out in Metaphilosophy at the moment entitled 'Is Critical Thinking Epistemically Responsible?': it makes the point that intelligent people often run into even more problems than cretins, since they are better able to rationalise crazy-yet-appealing beliefs. clever religious people are often harder to shake than stupid ones.


ture na sig


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ubblol

cheers ben, that was pretty funny smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Mynci - thank you - I like that one biggrin

Ben - please can I have a link to explain a bit more about ID?
Cos from what you have said, and that site, it doesn't sound awfully sensible.

However - I got taught religion in school so is this really any different?


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank


Sniper
Sniper

Snoochie-boochie-noochies!

Member Since: 24th Jan 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:i got as far as 'noodly appendage' before i cracked up biggrin


animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage.

I laughed so loud!!

oh dear. I myself, believe in the big bang theory and the theory of evolution. (are they the same thing?) I don't believe any of the religious hoodoo they try to plant in people's brains... BUt I should stop there, before I turn this thread into an off topic discussion...

I'm with you on this one, ben...


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:the big bang theory is a very different beast to the theory of evolution although both of them seem to piss off creationists equal amnounts wink

for a good evolution explantion and discussion, read 'the blind watchmaker' by richard dawkins, for a big bang explanation go for simon singh's (undoubtedly excellent) new book 'the big bang'.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:When I learned about evolution in class the common ancestry of humans and chimpanzees was illustrated with pictures of George Bush. Sadly I don't think he would appreciate the irony. biggrin

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:Religion is different to ID. religion is taught as a belief system and as a collection of parables. this drivel (sorry) of ID is creationalists trying to "create" facts to fit their theory. they are basically not FAITHFUL enough so feel they need "proof" of their beliefs. Which I find amusing....you shouldn't need proof of a faith, you should just be faithFUL.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:At my school, in religion we had a main topic "science and religion". It showed the philosophy behind science, like inductive and deductive logic, empirism etc, and we saw some interesting programmes of scientists discussing the big bang with theologists. I think it is not a bad idea to give people the choice to go for one or the other, or to see how and if they overlap and contradict.

My favourite lesson was the teacher saying "Well, some people say that the earth and all the life and the universe are far too complex to be made up by pure chaos, coincidence and mutation, and therefore they prefer to believe in ID."
So we said: "But isn't it all far too complex to be made up by just 1 mind, no matter how big?", and the teacher just grinned and said "you're getting the problem!"

However I agree that ID shouldn't be taught as science and just be presented without proper explanation that it's based on belief not evidence.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


JerryD
JerryD

member
Location: Maryland
Member Since: 2nd Aug 2005
Total posts: 136
Posted:Thanks for that link, it is a riot!! It makes its point in a great way. I may have to get myself a WWFSMD t-shirt.



ubblol ubblol ubblol



(and it gave me the signature that I have been waiting for ubbidea)


I was touched by His Noodly Appendage


fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:ubblol @ JerryD's sig

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:"Up until now, most scientists have been too preoccupied developing new theories to describe what the Universe is to ask the question: 'Why?'"
-Stephen Hawking

Hawking's Book, The Theory of Everything includes some interesting discussions of God. Hawking says, among other things, that although the Big Bang theory does not exclude a creator, it does place a limit on when He might have done His work (some time between 12 and 18 billion years ago, roughly). He continues to speak of how science keeps on limiting the mind of God and the work of God and shows, that, as Einstein proposed, God may not have had a choice in creating the Universe.

I find it interesting to take this approach. As a scientist, I don't believe in God. I've seen too much senselessness to believe in an intelligent creator. Besides, what "intelligent" designer would give humans an appendix? Or loop the left recurrent laryngeal nerve around the aorta? Or use a three-hormone system for regulating phosphate and calcium balance when a simple two-hormone system would work just fine? I can go on and on with examples of how the human body is CLEARLY not intelligently designed.

People wonder that it all works. Well, of course it all works! If it didn't we wouldn't be around to appreciate it, would we? (Weak Anthropic Principle).

But Hawking and Einstein never excluded the possibility of a God because such a possibility cannot be excluded. Science cannot exlcude an agent that cannot be detected by scientific methods. I have to accept such a possibility, but I also have to note that Occam's Razor would indicate that there probably isn't a God.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


maus
maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Member Since: 14th Jul 2005
Total posts: 4191
Posted:Ben do you have any more info on ID,found it hard to get past the sillyness of that letter so didnt really understand it as well as i would like to.
ubblol ubblolnoodly appendage ubblol ubblol-GENIUS!



TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:haha ID, what a joke.

What get's me about ID folk is that i can't see how ID can't include evolution.

Because surely evolution would be the most increadible bit of design for 'god' or whoever to do.

Like there's no reason why darwin and the IDers can't both be right. Oh except that a lot of the american IDers are a bunch of frigging fundamentalist christians hell bent on death in the name of the lord.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:i think its mighty humerifical. oh look a noodle on the floor *picks it up n eats it*

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


weeleigh
weeleigh

look a rainbow!
Location: Waterford, CT
Member Since: 14th Dec 2002
Total posts: 237
Posted:ubblol ubblol ubblol I loved the graph of temperature vs. number of pirates. Oh man. Great site. biggrin

I agree, though. If they want to fight for ID to get taught in school, then fine. But not in SCIENCE class. Come on people.


"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth."


Spiderbaby
Spiderbaby

c",

Member Since: 31st Mar 2005
Total posts: 199
Posted:I printed the pages of the site this morning and showed it to all my friends. They thought it was insane. I thought it was genius ubblol


ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:for more info on what ID is and isnt and why it can be summed up with the word [censored] see here http://skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


maus
maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Member Since: 14th Jul 2005
Total posts: 4191
Posted:Cheers hun.x


PyroMonkey
PyroMonkey

b...bal...lence?....
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Member Since: 6th Jan 2005
Total posts: 370
Posted:Bwahahahahahahhahah Noodley Appendage Ahahahahaaaaa

Aww god thats funny.
What the *bleep* do people see in *bleep* like that?...

Kinda reminds me of the bit in the family guy movie, anyone seen it?, where stuey goes back in time to see jesus and he's there doing the jumping fingers thing!!

once again,
Bwahahahahahahhahah Noodley Appendage Ahahahahaaaaa



Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:In terry prachetts "science of the discworld 3 - Darwins Watch" they have some very good points on evolution vs ID and they make it easy to read coz it's funny. if you want a good read and a basic understanding on evolution and ID, give it a look (or borrow it off me biggrin )

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:is it not just a hoax type thing? confused

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:Don't think it's a hoax...more a p1ss take or wind up.
if you read it carefully you can see where he says it should be taught alongside ID and science based on quanitifiable, and seeable results etc (not quoted exactly) like a p1ssed off scientist


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:oops, i did mean wind up! redface sorry, had a late night and just 3hrs sleep ubblol

*hits my head homer-style*

Stupid brain


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


Sniper
Sniper

Snoochie-boochie-noochies!

Member Since: 24th Jan 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:oh aye what you been up to then? wink


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:You know EXACTLY what I was up to - gardening of course lol

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


LostSurfer
LostSurfer

I'd be in trouble if I had to eat an antelope now
Location: The Isles of Scilly
Member Since: 5th Dec 2004
Total posts: 278
Posted:there was an interesting article in the Guardian today about ID in case anyone wants to read it!

"Everything in moderation. Even moderation itself. From this it follows that you must, from time to time, have excess. And this is going to be one of those occasions"


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