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Forums > Social Discussion > Does Violence solve anything?

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Hi everyone, I did a search on this topic, and didn't come up with much. So either no-one's discussed this before or I just can't use the search engine ubblol

Title says it all really, just a general exchange of opinions on whether violence solves anything or whether it is ever justified.

When I was about 14, I got bullied a lot. Nothing special (I wasn't close to comitting suicide or anything like that). Name calling, people poking me and whatnot on the bus to and from school. I complained to my school and they got a Sixth Former to sit next to me and it dies down. Then I moved house. There weren't any Sixth Formers on this bus, and the bullying started again. While I'm no weed, I just preferred to read instead of responding to any of the taunts. Eventually it got to the stage where I had a kid in the year below me pulling my hair when he was sitting behind me.

So I got up, turned round and punched him twice in the face.

Bizarrely enough, I never got bothered on that bus again. Months of being bullied and told to "Ignore it" again and again by teachers, and it was simply a matter of punching someone.

Anyone have similar experiences? Or believe that Violence is never justified, or solves anything? Any Pacifists in the forums? Any willing to stand still while someone tries to harm them and truly "Turn the other cheek"?

peace


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Always was a terrible waste smile



No offence taken at all... I have no problems admitting how fu*ked up some of my countrymen and women are (wish some other folks could use the same honesty).



That is what I meant by 'there is no justification for violence' - because I've seen it dressed up as so many things... Always 'for the cause'.



It started off as a war to fight off an unwelcome British. Then the other side fought to keep it British, then they fought for past wrongs and injustices. Then they fought 'the other side'. Now they fight to mark out terroritory and because violence is so ingrained.



(Ahem, rather simplified biggrin)



Violence is a lack of self-control which can easily escalate.



Some people in this country have forgotten that we are all human and have catagorised themselves into one group or another. Perhaps for a sense of belonging or security - I don't know - but either way, it is a corrosive and negative force.



Our differences should be talked through, then celebrated... not feared and responded to with violence.


Getting to the other side smile

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Posted:Good for you Sethis for punching that kid in the face !!! i had to do the (kinda) the same thing as you one time and it worked.
Violance is ok if you know when and how much to use.

I just know im going to get some angry replies that strongly disagree with that last sentence.


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rowanlee


member
Location: west coast

Total posts: 99
Posted:Firepoise, I am interested in that the response you see to having been exposed to constant violence is the rejection of it. Great! Certainly has been the case for me personally. Most of the time I am told of the exact opposite, that people learn that violnce is the way solve problems People do not even get better options modelled for them in their community, so they dont learn to seek alternatives. I find it encouraging that your expereince/observation differs.



About domestic violence. ..



People often think that leaving is an obvious option. And sometimes it is. But not always. I dont know about elsewhere in the world, but the incidence of attacks that place women in the hospital, and the number of women actually killed by their partner, increases radically * after* or *during* their attempts to leave...not while they are in the relationship. Leaving is the most dangerous point.



It not as simple as one might think to get out, if our society and community is not willing to put some effort into helping people make a safe exit, and supporting them as they do so. Even confused , abused people may see the option of leaving, and want it, but may not know how to manage it on their own. Most people in this kind of situation do not have their own support networks and have been effectively cut off from family and friends.



In Canada we have radically reduced funding for these services for victims of abuse( transition houses, homes for abused women and children, crisis lines, etc) while the reported incidence of domestic assault has actually gone up! Many needed shelters have been closed.



My situation was a bit different tho- I was around 15 by the time I could leave, and by then the worst was over anyways. . Leaving is easier for an adult. Kids need a different set of options and services, since they are dependants.We dont provide that very well here either. I know, I have spent some time working with street kids, and see how challenging it can be for them just to get by-- never mind grow !. They have often left home damaged in so many ways from violence, then simply find it again on the streets, and so the cycle goes...



Today a friend was talking about anger as a mask for fear, and how violence is an extension of that. Suggesting that both individuals and societies could look at the underlying fear, not just the anger. If you help neutralize peoples fears, create safe secure places for communication and expression, violent angry outbursts would be lessened.



Maybe?



hug


wherever you go, there you are

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hey there Spiderbaby... you're entitled to your opinion. smile

Btw, I've just noticed you're in Ireland... we haven't met you yet?!!

Stop by the Irish thread in the events section and say hello... you missed a great weekend at Tara, but we've other events planned, would be good to see you.

Take care
Clare x


Getting to the other side smile

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:And Rowanlee... Hello wave

As I said, most 'sensible' people I know reject violence - but there are many others who have accepted it as part of the norm.

I don't know what the social difference is.
I know educated, 'middle-class' people who still spout sectarian rubbish because it's all they've known. I know non-educated 'working class' people who reject violence outright.

I don't know what makes a person develop consciousness... but when you see the human race as one and the same it becomes difficult to inflict hatred on another.

I agree that looking at fear and ignorance - the core that is masked by violence - is one solution to the problem.


Getting to the other side smile

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Posted:Woooo!!!! iv got an opinion yay!
It would be really cool to meet HOPers since the only spinners i know were introduced to poi by me or my brother and most of them just gave up.

I live in the south in Naas but thats all im narrowing it down to.
Could you tell me if theres any meets on in dublin any time because id love to meet other firespinners. You guys are probably all legend spinners too, im still crap.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Lol, never worry. I'm crap too biggrin

There's loads of us around. Ronan, Eimhim and Angus down in Cork, Aidan and Amelie in Limerick, Lisa, Helen, Barry, Helene, Declan, Darrell, Cameron, Martin and others in Dublin... Diana, Colleen and myself here in Belfast.

Stop by the events section and say hi... it'd be great to meet you...

Oh, and try to make it to the Flip Flop Fantasmagoria in July - we're all going to be at that!!

(Ronan, Eimhim and Angus are the best in ireland - they're putting on the show!!)

Ahem offtopic


biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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Posted:Yea legend i just posted in the irish invasion thread. So i hope to make it to something during the summer. And il stop posting here because we'r straying waaaaayy off the point.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:*Pulls out telescope*

"Nope, can't see it at all. We must be WWWAAAAYYYY off topic."

*Smiles*

To get back on topic:

Ditto to Rowanlee, it's generally either a case of complete acceptance or complete rejection of violence if you grow up in a violent environment. I wonder if you could track what it is that make people dismiss it out of hand? Then find a way to get everyone to think like that... (kidding about that last btw)

On the Domestic side of things (how tame does that sound? It's a completely inadequate term...) I simply have no understanding of why anyone would ever hit their partner or family. I mean, what goes on in their heads? I guess that's down to your socialisation again, if you have a violent childhood, you'll grow up to be a violent adult.

Or do you? Is it another case of Accept/Reject with no middle ground? Or can you actually have a moderate opinion even after witnessing its effects first hand?

As always, no offence intended and opinions of all varieties welcomed!


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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rowanlee


member
Location: west coast

Total posts: 99
Posted:Hmmn. I am wrapping up my willingness to think about violence today with this thought...

Just that I think compassion is the way out of it. When we see ourselves connected( right on FirePoise!) then we are unwilling to hurt others in any way, because by extension we will all feel the pain. So, personally and in my community I will try to foster a sense of connection, facilitate safe communication, and practice active compassion. If I continue to constistently model these things and support non violent solutions when possible, maybe it will spread a little in the circle of my world. Love is the best antidote to fear.
So, love and light to you all,
Andrea


wherever you go, there you are

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Icer
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 205
Posted:well, i have witnessed a few amount of violence and had a fair amount inflicted on me. i choose not to go down that road, b/c i know what its like and wouldnt want to put someone else thru it. but its not easy. still have alot of scars, mental and physical.
my step father didnt have to best parenting skills but im choosing to rise above that. i lashed out as kid but was also picked on ny others, so maybe that expereince of both helped me.
im not really sure what has helped me make the decision not to go down that road. i thin ppl can 'break the cycle', but its not easy. i think there is a middle ground too, i will never strike my girlfriend (or any female) or my kids, but hell hath no fury like me if some one lays a hand on anyone that i love!
i think socialisation sets the situation and makes the decision about violence harder, but not im possible. we arent simply the products of our childhoods and up bringing, we do have some self-determining abilities.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:There is no black and white answer.

When my son was in kindergarden a 4th grade girl thought it would be cute to pick on him in the bus line. He came home upset, as he should be. I told him tell the teacher. We, the teacher and I discussed it. He spoke with the girl. My son came home the next week terrorized. I went to the school principle, who told me because it was the bus line, it was the bus company's problem. I went to the bus company and they told me it was the school's issue to deal with because he wasn't technically on the bus yet. I spoke with the line monitor. They wouldn't allow me to speak with the girl or tell me where to locate her parent.
My son came home with nail rakes down the side of his face. I'd had it. I told him that if she did it again that he was to tell her to stop, loudly enough for everyone around him to hear it twice and if she didn't stop, to deck her. And that is what happened.
My little man nailed this girl squarely in the eye and gave her a black eye that would have made a hockey player jealous.

Because of the situation he was not expelled, he was only suspended for one day...and trust me, I came down like hellfire on that school. Yes, there was another more peace-able route and we tried it, and it got us nowhere. Afterwards I found out from my son's teacher that not only did she not pick on Noah anymore, she avoided him like the plague and she didn't pick on anyone at all anymore.
In this case, yes it did.

However, I don't necessarily view self-defense as "violence" either. I see it as a last option response to a violent act....and I absolutely *will* get madcat on anyones arse that threatens myself or my loved ones.

As for domestic violence, don't get me started. I wasn't always such a strong person...and I got out...and it made me stronger. But domestic violence to me doesn't even really fit into this conversation because there are too many forms of it, and some of them aren't even violent, just destructive. It is unto its own and serves no purpose exsisting.

As for other forms of violence, my opinion is..sometimes yes, sometimes no...it fully depends on the situation and those involved.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: Firepoise

there are a large group of people for whom violence is completely socially acceptable - the ones who have grown up really close to it.
The kindof 'I don't like the way you looked at me so I'm going to punch you in the face' type.



I don't think that's Belfast-specific... my friend was on court duty last year and the case was a drug dealer and his buddy, the buddy had stolen 50 quid out of the dealer's flat, so they had a little more-or-less-planned showdown in the street, where the dealer killed his customer with a screwdriver-stab (but he was let off cause the other guy had a knife and threatened him first). There's so much pointless violence, not just in Belfast... not that I think violence over a religion that was originally designed to be peaceful and forgiving has a point...
But I get the "HEY you looked at me in the wrong way" discussions quite a lot outside my house cause I live between 2 busy roads where the drunks walk home. It's scary.

If you've had a violent childhood you have an increased chance of being a violent adult, but I've seen people who broke the chain, and I've also seen (and unfortunately been together with) people who started a new one. I found it was more the desire to be in control and make up for his own inadequacy and feeling inferior that made him want to be The Man, but that's probably just a single case... I usually try to stay away from the topic cause I got out of it but I don't think my "method" would work for everyone, and reading about it brings back lots of unpleasant memories redface

Thumbs up for Pele's boy though biggrin


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Birgit... certainly, as I mentioned in the first post I made, that kind of violence is not solely based in Belfast... not by a long way.

But here we have acute sectarianism and racism which adds to the basic stupidity you get everywhere else.

Pele... you didn't mention it, but I was wondering - did you suggest that your son stand up to the girl (by telling her to stop), before going to the teacher?

I have always thought that in some bullying situations, going to the adults can make a situation worse (it seems like it did in this case). Bullying is most often an attack on someone who lacks confidence, or is quiet - so perhaps standing up to the bully in the first place would have had an affect too.

After being in the situation you were in, I'm sure you have already explained to your son that this was a one-off and hitting a girl is not good smile


Getting to the other side smile

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Nate
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Nate

Groovy ga watashi no namae desu!
Location: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England

Total posts: 1530
Posted:most of the points i was thinking of making have allready been said but i;ll just say them again lol

im a pacifist and have been threatened alot of times by silly little chavs and their friends however most of these times i have stuck my head down and gone about my business. however in school you cant really do that, especially when you're different to most people around you. i have long hair and have had this for a few years, going to a school that is full of chavs to the brim who just dont know right from wrong it was kind of hard not to get 7 different colours of crap kicked out of me on a regular basis

however on most of these occasions i never faught back because i dont think its the right thing to do in this case, simply because if i had faught back it would have gotten around and pretty soon i would have had alot of people after me, thats just the way some twats think......and when i did fight back thats exactly what happened.

its sad that like love, violence is all around us too, lol how cheap was that sentance


I like Languages.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hug

Awww nate, we all love you biggrin

Just think... in a few years time when you are making a fortune from being the best fire spinner ever and surrounded by adoring girlies, all these pathetic little people will be still working in McDonalds.


Getting to the other side smile

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:I'm also pacifist. Violence and aggression make me feel sick.

Just like to say I agree with Sethis, learning self-defence can help to limit encounters with violence to a minimum. I've never been good at punching or kicking, but I went and learnt Aikido so I can now dislocate shoulders and break arms easily if anyone tries to punch me (causing minimal damage to my attacker, of course!).

My problem is sometimes I know I should retaliate and I don't, I try and be a good person by not taking an eye for an eye e.t.c, but that's left me in the classic doormat position in the past. I guess I haven't figured out where to draw the line yet.

Also, emotional abuse and violence upsets me just as much as physical, if not more, because it's near impossible to defend yourself from this unless you're a strong person.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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Jastapus
BRONZE Member since Feb 2005

Jastapus

member
Location: UK, Essex

Total posts: 39
Posted:Does violence solve anything!!!!
well let me enlighten you, whilst walking through town with a friend we were assaulted due to the fact that a guy didnt like the fact that my friend always smiles. My friend precended to pull a pair of fire knunchucks on him (in the middle of the street... out of self-defence) which in turn angered him more. Then we ran!

Me thinks it shows that violence on violence just adds to it, but sometimes you just cant prevent it and you either have to run or fight, and in some cases you cant run.
So in some very minor cases it does solve somethings but with the vast majority it just adds to it.


Cogito Ergo Sum

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Nate
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Nate

Groovy ga watashi no namae desu!
Location: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England

Total posts: 1530
Posted:well said jastapus, firepoise....be realistic, but thanks anyway

I like Languages.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Jastapus
BRONZE Member since Feb 2005

Jastapus

member
Location: UK, Essex

Total posts: 39
Posted:they wearnt alight if thats what that meant!!!! just as a threat.
thanks to you


Cogito Ergo Sum

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Gherkin
GOLD Member since Apr 2005

Gherkin

Inventor


Total posts: 117
Posted:Pele, how can the school suspend Noah for something that happened in the bus line that the school said isn't their responsibility or any of their business?





Like I said in my other post; Those hitting back at bullies usually seem to get in trouble for it in a school situation, and the bully is the 'victim'. confused It's like a conspiracy or something...


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"firepoise....be realistic, but thanks anyway"


Nate, are you suggesting I be realistic?


ubblol


I'm just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one smile


Getting to the other side smile

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:no

POI THEO(R)IST

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Nate
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Nate

Groovy ga watashi no namae desu!
Location: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England

Total posts: 1530
Posted:yes, yes i am

I like Languages.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:ubblol

Why?

I think in years to come you will be a world famous fire dancer, surrounded by adoring girlies... what's wrong with that?


Getting to the other side smile

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Nate
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Nate

Groovy ga watashi no namae desu!
Location: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England

Total posts: 1530
Posted:well im flattered redface but i dont think i;ll be world famous, but hopefully surrouded by girlies who are rather adoring wink

I like Languages.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted:i am not a violent person but have used violence and well it made me feel so much better,ended up solving the problem and i was/still am glad i did it.

Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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