Forums > Social Discussion > Yet another preventable whitegas accident... (deleted)

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Deleted due to legal issues.
EDITED_BY: NYC (1118155353)


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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:Thank you OWD.

I support your quest to educate newbies and the public about fuels, I teach the same thing. But read the title of this thread again. As a prefessional I do not appreciate the candor of the title or much of this discussions content (in general). Educating is one thing, but attacking a valid choice in such a backhanded way only upsets me. We can start a new thread about proper fuels if they don't already exist. There should be a proper place to discuss fuels, unfortunately this isn't that thread, and were only upsetting each other.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Lamp oil / Kerosine is a safer fuel and I insist my new spinners use it.

But (speaking generally) don't say I'm irresponsible for useing white gass in my performances, don't attack MY choice of fuel, and don't imply my choice is wrong. That is what I'm defending in this thread.


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I really don't see the problem with the thread title: -

"Re: Yet another preventable whitegas accident..."

It pretty much sums up what the original post was about- that a spinner had been hurt, and that, to an extent, that hurt was unnecessary in that it wouldn't have happened had the fuel been paraffin; and, that more than this, it was only the latest in a long line of such accidents involving white gas.

As you've said, white gas is less safe than paraffin, and is not suitable for beginners.

I suspect that you would probably also agree that for non-performance hobby spinning, paraffin is better.

You consider white gas to be preferable in certain performance situations (eg indoors, on stages that will become slippy with kero etc) and essential for the kind of performance you do.

That makes sense, and that's the right choice for you.

Personally, I don't see how the thread title is at all critical of the proper use of white gas.

And, even if it could be interpreted that way (which i don't think it can); IMO we have to take into account that the majority of posters/readers on this board are not performers, they're newbies and hobby-ists, and helping them avoid pain and injury overides the risk of causing a little offence to the minority of professional performers.

But seriously, I don't think that the title does critisise the proper use of white gas; maybe I'm missing something, in which case let me know


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:It must be in the interpretation of the title. There were a couple of us offended so I'm not alone.

I don't know what else to say, I'll just continue to light my self on fire in a reckless irresponsible way, I like it, crowds like it and yes I'm being sarcastic.


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Some of this post will be offtopic (just to cover my butt)



I have been watching this thread with intrest and must say that the title of this thread is in no way offending to anyone in my opinion.



NYC's post described an accident involving white gas that could have been prevented. From further posts it seems that there have been a few white gas accidents that NYC has witnessed that could have easily been prevented with the use of some safety concerning the volitality of the fuel. I believe that the point of the post was to help raise awareness for safety when using white gas, as the accidents that NYC has witnessed has only ever been when someone is using white gas.



If the title of the thread was "stupid white gas users" Then I would understand a emotional response to the title, but NYC was far from offending anyone.



I also believe that copy/pasting someones post onto another forum without their permission is extremley rude and if I was NYC I would have been very very upset about that.

I am glad that Orbit apologised thats really nice.



From what I have seen there is no anti american sentiment on this board and this is quite a disturbing thing to hear. All people here are accepted for who they are regardless of where they are from. Some of the most amazing people on this board are from the U.S. shrug I dont know where that would even come from!





I think that Newgabe has summed up a whole lot of info from the aussie point of view very well. I 'think' that white gas here in australia is called Shellite and I can honestly say that I have see one person use shellite to spin in all my 4 1/2 years of spinning (at least twice a week in a group)

This guy used shellite to breathe with eek eek eek eek and set his entire face on fire.



I believe the reason Aussies dont use it is because its known to be dangerous and we choose not to.



This post is not meant to be offensive to ANYONE in ANYWAY and if its taken that way I think prehaps people need to chillax a bit. ubblol ubblol


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Valura

From what I have seen there is no anti american sentiment on this board and this is quite a disturbing thing to hear. All people here are accepted for who they are regardless of where they are from. Some of the most amazing people on this board are from the U.S. shrug I dont know where that would even come from!




What board are you on? wink

Thanks for your support on the actual ontopic discussion Valura. I really do think people were overreacting to things I didn't say (back on the actual whitegas issue.)

As for the anti-American sentiment on HoP, it's pretty overt. I'm surprised you don't see it. Many of my friends on HoP say some pretty harsh things overtly. (I mean even my buddy UCOF had a quote about America being 'a great big mistake' for months.) I've grown used to it as I know it's a blessing in some ways for me to be here so I don't complain too much (Kind of like when I get harassed for being white or male or middle classed.)

I also think it's 'cool' for international 'liberals' to hate America. Bush, McDonalds, Corporate greed, SUVs... it's all "Amercia" to many...

I don't want to go TOO far offtopic but if you wanted to start a thread on Americahate I'm sure you could. There's plenty of it on HoP. Just ask.

I've grown acustom to taking crap for being American (and can't remember a time when I've dished it for someone else's nationality...) but I'm proud of many things that make me who I am.

I don't, however, feel that my safety protocols will in any way affect international political sentiment about my country. But I guess I understand Orbit a bit more if that's what he's reacting to. smile


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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:*is honestly shocked*

Maybe I havent seen this anti American stuff. I will have a look.

It will be no surprise to me if I am actually crusing this bored with my eyes closed! *giggles*


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:The offense is partially in the wording of the title ''Yet another...accident" To start off with, that doesn't have a postive connotation.

Further, NYC made it seem like the only thing at fault was the fuel used. He didn't mention at all that it could have been the safety issues (or lack thereof) of the person using the fuel.

He mentioned that it was the handles that were the problem, but not how the handles became lit. If the handles had accidentally gotten dunked in the fuel (the only time I've ever seen handles of any variety, nylon, leather, or suede), then it is the lack of safety precautions of the person that caused the accident. If anyone around here gets their handles dunked in the bucket, they know those handles aren't useable for the rest of the evening, and will find a replacement pair to spin with. If they can't, then they won't be spinning with those wicks until they can thoroughly dry.

Thus, I took offense because it was made to seem the only thing to blame is the fuel, and many of us that frequently work with white gas know that may not be the case.


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:NYC... I don't really think that having a negative attitude towards the foreign policies of the world's biggest nation can really be seen as anti-American. It's just free speech.



There are plenty of good things about America, we just don't sit around talking about them all the time - but this can be applicable anywhere. People, more often than not, talk about the negatives.



For example, there are lots of good things about Northern Ireland. There are lots of stunning places to visit in Ireland - but what are we known as?! Terrorists and drunks (broadly speaking).



I can't argue against that because, while it is certainly not the norm, it IS part of the situation here and people are entitled to their opinions... I'm certainly not going to call them anti-Irish (or racist, for another term).



I know that America comes in for more abuse than other countries - but the counter to that is that America is the biggest nation and it's problems impact on the rest of the world.



C'est la vie.


Getting to the other side smile

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TeeJay
TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa
Member Since: 23rd Oct 2003
Total posts: 75
Posted:I have, unfortuntely, come late into this thread. However - if I'm not mistaken, the "accident" was the handles of the poi.

I live in American Samoa, where the Samoan Knifedance was born. As a matter of fact it was my "papa" Paramount Chief Letuli, who invented this dance. All we have ever used is Coleman's Camp Fuel (White Gas to us).
The reasons for this are Kerosene and Parrafin are oily fuels - they don't transfer easily, they stink, and if they DO get on you, they don't go out easily.
We use whitegas because: If you get some on you (lit) - you just pat it out.....my 12 year old son did this when he got lit whitegas all over his chest and neck.
The other thing is that here in Samoa we do NOT spin with clothes on. THAT is your whole problem - clothes catch on fire.
Our boys spin in little itty bitty loin clothes (sexy and smart).
Rest assured - in 50 years of fireknife dancing - which uses the most fuel of any fireart - the only severe accidents have been due to the use of regular gasoline.

Teejay


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:eek

I wish we had the temperatures of Samoa!! Lol, it's a bit too chilly here to be spinning anything without clothes biggrin


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: spritie




The offense is partially in the wording of the title ''Yet another...accident" To start off with, that doesn't have a postive connotation.



Further, NYC made it seem like the only thing at fault was the fuel used. He didn't mention at all that it could have been the safety issues (or lack thereof) of the person using the fuel.



He mentioned that it was the handles that were the problem, but not how the handles became lit. If the handles had accidentally gotten dunked in the fuel (the only time I've ever seen handles of any variety, nylon, leather, or suede), then it is the lack of safety precautions of the person that caused the accident. If anyone around here gets their handles dunked in the bucket, they know those handles aren't useable for the rest of the evening, and will find a replacement pair to spin with. If they can't, then they won't be spinning with those wicks until they can thoroughly dry.



Thus, I took offense because it was made to seem the only thing to blame is the fuel, and many of us that frequently work with white gas know that may not be the case.







Concerning fuel use and inadequate safety, there are four scenarios-



1. Use of the safest fuel and good safety procedures

2. Use of a less safe fuel and good safety procedures

3. Use of the safest fuel and inadequate safety procedures

4. Use of less safe fuel and inadequate safety procedures



Obviously, for minimising (not eliminating, which is not possible) risk; 1 is the best combination and 4 is the worst



Most spinning (that I've seen anyway) is either 2 or 3



Most UK spinning seems to be 3, most American spinning seems to be 2.



Obviously those using white gas can be in 2, and by enhancing their safety stuff go a long way to cutting down risk, but they will never reach the safety level of 1, simply because they use the less safe fuel (that's not taking into account rare and extreme cases such as naked samoan dancing).



In a situation such as the one being discussed, where safety was suspect and white gas was being used, then both those are causal factors, in the sense that, in that sitaution, if the safety had been OK, there would have been no serious accident, and, if the fuel had been paraffin, there would have been no serious accident.



So yes, there was a safety problem, but the fact remains, had paraffin been used instead, there would not have been a serious accident.



===========



Isn't it just best to say that IF you and your group do have very stringent safety procedures/equipment and have good reason to use white gas over paraffin, then white gas is a good choice.



But, bear in mind that that is not the most common scenario- many, many people spin in some of the following ways: -



1. no spotter/safety person

2. little or no safety equipment

3. spin whilst drinking/taking drugs

4. have no good reason th use white gas over kero/paraffin.



-----------------



At the end of the day, those of you whose use of white gas is justified and responsible, tend to be people who have a lot of experience and are probably performers.



ie you would hopefully be the more responsible members of the community and hopefully have a real interest in encouraging safety amongst the newbies and hoobyists who constitute the vast majority of the community.



As mature and responsible individuals, would it not be better to take this thread as a sincere warning against that majority of newbies and hobbyists using a fuel which is for them unsuitable; rather than taking it as an attack on your responsible use of it?



Because I don't think anyone in this thread has done what you're accusing them of ie condemn the responsible use of white gas by professionals.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Getnasty58
Member
Location: fl usa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 16
Posted:hey i have been spinning fire for about 2 years now and i have come to beleave that pain is love you get burned it is because you tried to control the flame you are just a pawn in the poi's master plan if you try to control the poi you will always lose i use only white fuel and i almost never where a shirt and half of the time i always am doing crazy wraps if it is off my legs to my neck and off my arms all you have to do is wrap fast and f up a few times and you will get better so get nasty and go for the gusto weavesmiley

"To become a great fire spinner you have to learn to manipulate fire not control it if you try to control it you will only get burned"
ME

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: spritie

Further, NYC made it seem like the only thing at fault was the fuel used. He didn't mention at all that it could have been the safety issues (or lack thereof) of the person using the fuel.



Nope. I pretty clearly stated that there are an infinite number of things that can go wrong to cause an accident.

I said "I realize there are many factors that lead up to an accident. I realize that there are an infinite number of ways that an accident can be prevented."

I do not believe that the only thing at fault was the fuel used. I clearly stated the opposite.

If you were confused as to whom or what I was blaming the accident on, you could have asked. You didn't.

And I stand behind the title. The accident was preventable. It was with whitegas. It happened yet again. That's all the title said.

If anyone wants to know my specific feelings towards a specific aspect of a specific fuel ASK ME. Don't just skim the title and make assumptions.

This entire arguement, and the arguement on Tribe has degraded into people fabricating ideas and attributing them to me.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Getnasty58


hey i have been spinning fire for about 2 years now and i have come to beleave that pain is love you get burned it is because you tried to control the flame you are just a pawn in the poi's master plan if you try to control the poi you will always lose i use only white fuel and i almost never where a shirt and half of the time i always am doing crazy wraps if it is off my legs to my neck and off my arms all you have to do is wrap fast and f up a few times and you will get better so get nasty and go for the gusto weavesmiley





pain is not love- it's an indication that you've messed up.



Also, there's a big difference between getting a few burns from wrapping, and the pain of spending 2 months in hospital in a critical state because something went badly wrong.



And that (and worse) has happened to many fire artists


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:Since you deleted the initial post, there was no way I could go back to it for specifics, so I was going by what I remembered in my head (which admittedly has been flawed by several days time). Someone asked what there was that people took offense to. I was simply stating my response (and thus my personal opinion) to this inquiry.



However, when asked to give specifics about the accident, you essentially said nope. To me, this is not a willingness to discuss the issue. Had to said that one could PM you for an explanation, that would have been one thing, but all you did was say why you wouldn't explain the incident, and that it didn't really matter other than it was an accident with white gas (at least that's the impression I got from what you wrote in your second post)



I'm just saying that we don't always interpret things in the way that one means them (a thread was even started by you about that very thing).


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:And, if you remember, one of the positives that came out of that thread was to be sure to ask for clarification before jumping to conclusions or making up facts.

It's inappropriate to warp someone else's arguement to suit your own.

And the thread is still up on Tribe if you want to search for where you think I made it seem like it was only the fuels' fault for the accident.

Or you could ask me.


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Getnasty58
Member
Location: fl usa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 16
Posted:i never saw the first post but if you get hurt that bad you ether suck and need never to pick up a match or you where un safe close your fuel lid and use the flames in an open safe area with a fire extinguisher* sorry i suck at spelling* but if you hurt your self that bad you sould have retired when you were ahead weavesmiley

"To become a great fire spinner you have to learn to manipulate fire not control it if you try to control it you will only get burned"
ME

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Getnasty58

i never saw the first post but if you get hurt that bad you ether suck and need never to pick up a match or you where un safe close your fuel lid and use the flames in an open safe area with a fire extinguisher* sorry i suck at spelling* but if you hurt your self that bad you sould have retired when you were ahead weavesmiley



OK, that's just the funniest of all.

People can have no facts at all and still have an opinion.

We've officially entered comical. And I'm not only not taking comments personally, I'm not even taking them seriously.

Feel free to make up whatever fantasys about me you'd like. I'll be your knight in shining armor or facist poi dictator.

Now I'm wonderding if I'm just a rorschach test and people are projecting their own issues on to me. If you look closely, can you see my opinion of whitegas?


Non-Https Image Link


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