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Katinca


Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia

Total posts: 693
Posted:Ok, if you have seen the movie 'what the bleep do we know' then you will know where I got this from. By the way, it's a really thought provoking movie. I think everyone should see it. You may not like it, but it still stimulates some interesting concepts about the philosophy and reality of life as we know it, and as we dont know it.

But anyway. I found this part of the movie the most interesting. As a 'scientist' I am trying to work out if this is 'true'. For example, did he replicate his experimental results, did he use fair testing etc....

What do you think?

Dr. Masaru Emoto has undertaken the research of water around the planet not so much as a scientific researcher, but more from the perspective of an original thinker. He realized that it was in the frozen crystal form that water showed us its true nature. He continues with this experimentation and has written a variety of well-received books in Japanese, as well as the seminal "Messages from Water" books published bilingually.

http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp
br>
.......I do think water is amazing though. And I also wouldn't be surprised if this was true.

But what do you think??


ubblove
k8


Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: quiet

re: 'if it works, then leave it'

I think there's a conflict of values here, also: I'd rather know the truth, and risk unhappiness, than find solace in a pack of lies.



Then that's you, and that's what works for you.

Others find the blunt objective world to be deeply unsatisfactory- they need spiritual meaning.

And spiritual meaning is not 'a pack of lies'- it's simply a different way of seeing things (I acknowledge that some unscrupulous people do use lies in the guise of spirituality to abuse others; but that approach is not restricted to spirituality, it's rife everywhere).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:just wait a damn minute . . .

I wasn't implying that spiritual meaning is a pack of lies; I *was* trying to make the point that the truth matters. Sometimes other stuff matters more, and different people have different preferences regarding this. I also think that most people are strongly concerned with the truth.

This is the whole point of the 'orgasmatron' thought-experiment: if 'how it feels' is all that matters, then you might as well plug yourself in. But I don't think that many people would want to.


ture na sig

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Katinca


Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia

Total posts: 693
Posted:Don't you need to define what 'truth' is then?

And in what parameters is something then regarded as true?

You have a vast amount of evidence that shows something to be true, but you don't know that it is true. You can only assume it's true based on the evidence you have *observed*.

Observation is also purely a personal and subjective thing - woo getting into radical constructivism here... What I am saying is you can construct an experiment that hypothesises something to be true or untrue, but you can have your experimental data clouded by your initial expectations. Sometimes you may even think you are being totally impartial. However more then likely you are not. Our science often based on observation. What we can see if you see it a million times it must be true. Why?? Maybe its just a thousand different scientists wishing it to be true and thus seeing it to be true.

I think that so many people believe things are true because Science proved it and therefore its right. For example: Western Medicine. So many people put their complete faith in Western medicine and call any other types of medicine a crock. WHY ? Because scientists proved that drug to be safe? Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years wow now thats a lot of clinical trials!! But thats hoo-ha and a bunch of b*llocks. Why is western medicine so good? Or perceived to be so good and truthful.

I think its really important that people question science and what it has proven and not just take it for granted and face value. Isnt science just another wacky amount of theories and concepts? It just happens to the favourite way of investigating new knowledge our species is developing. In 100 years we may have come up with a new science and suddenly realise that all those theories that we believed so strongly to be true are not.

It really wasnt that long ago as pointed out that people believed the world was flat and that we were created from Adam and Eve (disclaimer I teach evolution and I do believe that it is *currently* the best theory that explains our existence, however I am open to new ideas).

I think it is really important to be a critical thinker and not just to take things at face value and then to argue so strongly for or against them. Anything is possible. You just dont know it yet.

Thats my two bob..


Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:The thing about science is that, done properly, it goes to great lenghs to eliminate the researchers affecting the outcome.



It demands reproducibility of results ie if an experiment produces result A, done by science team B in location C; then, when the same experiment is done by team D in location E, it must also produce result A.



Much of scientific experimentation is done, not to affirm a given hypotheseis, but attempts to find results that disprove it; because it is the hypotheses that stand up to many sincere attempts at disproving, that are the strong ones.



I agree with you that some things based on science are dodgy eg the pharmacutical industry; but that is down to corporate greed, immoral marketing etc; it's not a fualt in scientific method.



Like I said above, IMO the alternative/new-age/spiritual community is often 'shooting itself in the foot' by atempting to use science to 'justify' its doctrines; equally, attempting to bring down scientific method is, IMO a mistake.



Critisise the dodgy stuff like aspects of the pharmacutical industry and other problems with the orthodox appraoch to health; but attacking scientific method itself is, IMO, futile, because it is an outstanding method for getting genuine results with minimal risk of error and bias creeping in.



(it goes with out saying that scientific method can't guarantee 100% error-free, but it's pretty much as close as you can get. If errors do creep in then it's basically because scientific method has not been strictly followed).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:I'm with OWD...

Just to rewind: Discover the difference between objective truth and subjective truth... i.e. what is real and what people think is real...

And as for dismissing peoples ideas out of hand... I wouldn't do it personally, due to the fact that I know much, but I don't know everything...

"The only true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing" - Socrates

As for explaining or proving altenative therapies or New Age stuff, I personally don't believe we have the science to explain the theories yet... There is still so much we do not know about the universe and therefore we cannot use our pitiful tools to take apart theories that we dont understand yet, we just know that they work.

One thing we do know is the truth of Good and Bad - Hitting someone is Bad, giving them a flower is Good.

We need to take more note of our spiritual well being when guiding us through our dicoveries - or else we find out that wood makes good paper and stuff and we lose 10% of the worlds biomass geologically overnight. (my numbers may very well be a long way off, i never said i was accurate, just I got good intentions)


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Applied Science (vs Theoretical Science) is also limited to the tools of observation, measurement and reproduction available to it. I dont believe our science (applied science) is even close to pure application of scientific method.

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:Oh and as for the water crystals idea, it just looks very random, not scientific. After all, weren't we told as children that every snowflake is different?

And one result for every experiment? And of course heavy metal music will produce a crap crystal cos of the vibration destroys the ice crystal, rather like hitting it with a hammer? Dur


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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Katinca


Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia

Total posts: 693
Posted:onewheeldave you have a fair point. smile

I am not saying Scientific Method is crap. I agree that is the best logical method we currently have for explaining things. I teach it, and understand its statistical significance and I do believe in it. But it doesn't mean that scientific method as we know it today will always be the best method for explaining things. Thats all I was really getting at, is that people should be open to new ideas and explorations, but with a critical eye. Just as they should not take everything that science has given us as truth. We scientist are just creating ideas and knowledge that seem logical based on our observations at that time. These observations maybe limited by technology, procedures or any other number of factors that come into play when doing experiments.

Also, I did write my last two bob through the slightly jaded eyes of someone who worked for the pharm industry. It was interesting that you picked up on that one biggrin


Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:'. Isnt science just another wacky amount of theories and concepts? It just happens to the favourite way of investigating new knowledge our species is developing. In 100 years we may have come up with a new science and suddenly realise that all those theories that we believed so strongly to be true are not.'

In short, no. I've got one point to add: it's the 'no miracles' argument, otherwise known as 'if none of science is true, it'd be a miracle that e.g. televisions work; but there aren't any miracles, so science must have got it at least partly right.'


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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: quiet

'. Isnt science just another wacky amount of theories and concepts? It just happens to the favourite way of investigating new knowledge our species is developing. In 100 years we may have come up with a new science and suddenly realise that all those theories that we believed so strongly to be true are not.'

In short, no.


ubblol


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Cassandra


Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !

Total posts: 4224
Posted:helloooo katinca kaborghananaaaaaaaaaaaa ubblove I miss you smile



I have to agree with onewheeldave and many others here..



I always find it interesting how my mind works when approaching those subjects... I feel like I am slightly schizo cause half of me really has no interest in what french people call "enc**age de mouche" aka "fly f**cking" which means much ado about nothing in very pompous terms but no real depth... ESPECIALLY when it comes to dealing with energy and vibrations and things-you-cannot-quite demonstrate



yet...



working in massage and doing some bodywork which tunes in to nature elements etc... i can only admit that i beleive there is more to it all than what meets the eyes OR the brain of scientists... and i beleive there is such thing as "energy" and vibrations.(i do not even think anyone disagrees with it, it is just the explanation they disagree on)

Spirituality is not just a word which was invented by trendy magazines to sell more "zen products" and cheap gurus... But spirituality seems to be mistreated and diistorted a whole lot by being forced through the grid of rational thinking... it is sucha personal, private experience...



I wish people did not always try to explain some things to prove it to the scientific world, sometimes a bit like a child trying to impress their father . Being demonstrable with a scientific approach is not the only realm there is around here... and some things would be better off if someone tried to explain them in poems, paintings, music, bodywork or just through life actions in silence...



It is always interesting to do a cross-cultural view on those subjects too (or is that cause i am a trained anthropologist wink ? ) like you said Kate, with western medicine versus traditional, same goes with science versus tribal beleifs (some would argue science is a cult or tribe in itself wink ) ...



what it boils down to is humility...

the socratic approach i agree is possibly the key to it all... I know that I know nothing...



to remain opened, but also to remain a child...

I find children possibly touch a purer truth than many big headed people simply because nothing is impossible to them yet they do not obsessively try to demonstrate it all...



i love that you bring out subjects which make me think, brain happy

peace



shine on

cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
I think its really important that people question science and what it has proven and not just take it for granted and face value. Isnt science just another wacky amount of theories and concepts? It just happens to the favourite way of investigating new knowledge our species is developing. In 100 years we may have come up with a new science and suddenly realise that all those theories that we believed so strongly to be true are not.



Most of the theories that we once thought were true were either guesses or otherwise not based in scientific reasoning.

We've been using the modern scientific method for only about 150 years or so. Since we have, we've invented amazing things. The discovery of the electron, for example... We've flown to the moon, we've made computers and televisions, we've cured cancer (yes, folks, we've cured cancer...just ask Lance Armstrong and he'll tell you all about how his cancer was cured).

People used to think that the moon was a basketball-sized lump of green cheese or whatever. That wasn't their 'science,' that was their belief system. It was the modern scientific method that proved it to be a thousand-mile lump of rock some several hundred thousand miles away. And it's science that's given us MRI, computers, microwaves, CD's, and plastic.

Science is nothing more than a method of gathering information that is rational and resistant to 'belief.' And since the dawn of science, we have done amazing things...and horrible things.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Cassandra


Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !

Total posts: 4224
Posted:Mike... Green CHEESE ? I am interested wink

::looking at the moon wondering where i put the crackers::


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Great, I tell a Frenchwoman about a thousand-mile lump of green cheese and not only does she believe me without scientifically testing the theory, but...

she gets excited. ubblol


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Katinca


Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia

Total posts: 693
Posted:Doc and quiet - you both have really good points about scientific method regarding the functioning of computers and t.v etc.. biggrin Thanks for that insight. I will take that on board ooow cognitive conflict. smile

And so Doc.... I see you believe that USA landed on the Moon then. .despite all the evidence that shows it might not have happened.....and why haven't we ever gone back there? Economic reasons? I am sure there would be plenty of rich joes who would pay to go to the moon...if they could (conspiracy style theory wink)**.

<**Disclaimer - not saying that USA didn't land on the moon, just throwing spanners around the place for a bit of fun>


Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Katinca

Doc and quiet - you both have really good points about scientific method regarding the functioning of computers and t.v etc.. biggrin Thanks for that insight. I will take that on board ooow cognitive conflict. smile

And so Doc.... I see you believe that USA landed on the Moon then. .despite all the evidence that shows it might not have happened.....and why haven't we ever gone back there? Economic reasons? I am sure there would be plenty of rich joes who would pay to go to the moon...if they could (conspiracy style theory wink)**.

<**Disclaimer - not saying that USA didn't land on the moon, just throwing spanners around the place for a bit of fun>



Katinca,

Carl Sagan has a great rant on this issue in his book Pale Blue Dot. In short, our reasons for going to the moon were a military publicity stunt.

Basically: "If we can put a man on the moon, imagine what we can drop into your back yard."

We haven't gone back to the moon because there's no selfish reason to. The development costs for a commercial venture are prohibitive, as is the cost of climbing out of Earth's gravity well. Just remember, the round trip flight to London cost me US$800. The first-class flight would have been US$5,000. And that's just for 8 hours strapped in a seat hurtling along at 800 km/h 11,000 meters above the surface of the earth. And airliner technology is over 50 years old and is amazingly well-developed.

In fact in all of the moon landings, good science was only returned from one or two of them.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Katinca
And so Doc.... I see you believe that USA landed on the Moon then. .despite all the evidence that shows it might not have happened.....and why haven't we ever gone back there? Economic reasons? I am sure there would be plenty of rich joes who would pay to go to the moon...if they could (conspiracy style theory wink)**.

<**Disclaimer - not saying that USA didn't land on the moon, just throwing spanners around the place for a bit of fun>


Heh, I've seen the evidence for why the Moon landings were faked, and so far none of them stand up to scrutiny. They're based on bad science, imperfect knowledge of the actual proceedings of the landing or just wild supposition...

Here's one rebuttal, with links to a load more...

http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/NOT_faked/


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Moon landings faked, pyramids build by aliens and so forth...

why do some people have trouble believing that humans are capable of incredible things on our own.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:and why did the same people who put people down for looking at alternative theories put people to death for suggesting that the Earth rotates around the Sun?

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Pyrolific

and why did the same people who put people down for looking at alternative theories put people to death for suggesting that the Earth rotates around the Sun?



because the people that put forward those ideas lived in a social and political environment that was massively resistant to change due to the fact that the 'government' was indistinguishable from the church and as such any challenge to religion was perceived as a challenge to the state.

i reckon smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:i don't understand . . . what are you getting at?

ture na sig

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:me? i was answering josh's question ubbangel

i wasn't sure what the question was trying to elicit so i answered it in the hope that the answer might be more applicable to the discussion.

i'm not sure that it is but its better than having an unanswered question left hanging... smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Written by: Cole
me?



Yes, I think so.
I dont like to leave questions hanging either wink

hug


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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:oops - coleman, my post was meant to come after josh's, not yours. bad timing

ture na sig

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:I've only just got round to reading all this thread since my first post.

Thanks UCOF for sticking up for me - that is what I ment.

I think my posts in other threads and other peoples posts in this tread mean I will take polarity's advice.

Bye wave


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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