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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:And, over here, the metaphysics thread.

For all your UTOR needs . . .


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I can't find fault with your optimism quiet but are the sorts of people who are going to hold a metaphysics debate going to be sensible enough to stick it all in one thread?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Thank you Quiet!

Now that we know where all of these debates are going to take place, it becomes much easier to dispose of them.

(Only kidding man beerchug) peace


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:I'm bouycotting this thread until I've finished my metaphysics exam on thurday tongue I'm getting more than enough madness for one week, thank you very much!

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:good luck! [or: 'i hope it went well'

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Bumfro


Bumfro

Its a bum with an afro...
Location: Newcastle NSW

Total posts: 223
Posted:p.s. We're doing tumbling in gym!

Racism is a weapon of mass destruction

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nome
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

nome

Member
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 35
Posted:Yeay, a place to ask for help with my homework smile

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Bumfro


Bumfro

Its a bum with an afro...
Location: Newcastle NSW

Total posts: 223
Posted:i believe metaphysics is an old, old wooden ship used in the civil war.

Racism is a weapon of mass destruction

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Shu
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Shu

Retro Fyre Wizzard
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN)

Total posts: 538
Posted:is there any such ting as good and evil?
or light and dark?
or life and death?
or is it mearly a matter of perception?


Regards hug

Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)

You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! ubbloco
Yes, i do bite!!

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:Written by: Shu

is there any such ting as good and evil?
or light and dark?
or life and death?
or is it mearly a matter of perception?



I believe that if I had a definitive answer, backed with definitive proof, for that question I would be a very very rich man.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:Yes
Yes
Yes
and
No

obviously

i'll provide proofs if you want; email or pm me.

idealism was refuted a number of years ago, after Berkeley posited his version thereof.


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Shu
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Shu

Retro Fyre Wizzard
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN)

Total posts: 538
Posted:I'd be interested to see your proof! Altho "PROOF" is also merely a perception!



but if something cannot exist without something else, then how can it exist at all? It's merely a human perception to make sense of things!


Regards hug

Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)

You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! ubbloco
Yes, i do bite!!

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:Written by: quiet

Yes
Yes
Yes
and
No

obviously

i'll provide proofs if you want; email or pm me.

idealism was refuted a number of years ago, after Berkeley posited his version thereof.



Just because idealism was refuted doesn't change anything, lol.
It still can't be definitively proved beyond arguement.

Besides that, I'm of the opinion that science shouldn't be used to squeltch philosophy. Killing possibility for sake of arguement can only serve to limit science in the end.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Shu

I'd be interested to see your proof! Altho "PROOF" is also merely a perception!




Proof is a demonstration of logical certainty.

Even if all your senses were removed (vision, hearing etc) and you ceased to perceive; proofs would still be valid.

If 'x' is proved, it means that 'x' is true.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Proof is a demonstration of logical certainty.

Even if all your senses were removed (vision, hearing etc) and you ceased to perceive; proofs would still be valid.

If 'x' is proved, it means that 'x' is true.



That's a little "tree falling in the forest" don't you think?


Jesus helps me trick people.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:No.



The 'tree falling in the forest' is a minor puzzle with an easy solution; for anyone who wishes to demonstrate that they have little or no understanding of philosophy, there are few better ways than dragging the 'tree falling in a forest' into discussions where it is not relevant smile



In contrast proof is the very basis of all logical discourse- if proof is invalid then rationality is dead and meaningful talk about anything (including, of course, the validity or otherwise of proof) is impossible.



ie the moment you open your mouth and try to say anything meaningful, you presuppose proof.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:"If 'x' is proved, it means that 'x' is true. "

Assuming that truth exists, wink

"All Truths are but Half Truths"

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:If we're talking about logic then truth exists as it is an axiom of the system.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Yes spiralx, that's what i just said. You are assuming that truth exists in an absolute form. You are accepting that truth exists without proof that it does. If that assumption is incorrect then so is the system that relies on it.

Another axiom would be 'All truths are but half truths'.

This leads to another set of conclusions which are equally valid as those relying on a single absolute truth.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
I recomend some Meta-matematics works, they are so nice smile


POI THEO(R)IST

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Bumfro


Bumfro

Its a bum with an afro...
Location: Newcastle NSW

Total posts: 223
Posted:My cat drank toilet water, out of the toilet!!

Racism is a weapon of mass destruction

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Posted:which is sort of the expected eventuality, kind of like bolting your door with a boiled carrot...

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Posted:The...realm they inhabit is, and always has been, timeless and unchanging- unborn, uncreated and undying."

This sounds more believable since it refrains from subjective interest.
That anything of its supposed charachter, or lack of it, could be as accurately described as a "mathmatical realm" supposes, seems a little presumptious...but for want of better words and in that mathematics is taken by mathematicians to be a language capable of describing nature in its perceptively infinitesimal details,then...sure, i suppose... redface


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Good and evil don't exist i'm afraid. They are indeed a matter of perception.

In my experience the most evil seeming people still have good intentions and believe they are doing good.

Take osama bin laden, to many he represents pure evil, to others he represents a small glimmer of hope against the evil empire.

Same with the bush administration, although if evil does exist you're likly to find it there wink

Just a matter of perspective.

I can't think of a single example of something that could be considered good or evil from all perspectives. Even the Devil is worshipped by satanics, the christian god is thought to be Satan by many, seems reasonable when you look at catholicism.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire

Total posts: 1711
Posted:I really wanted to avoid wading in- but here i am..

Yup- I'm with Nietzsche- its all differences of degree- no absolutes, only perspectival existance. Nothing more on philosophy from me, I'll get out swatted very quickly in these parts.


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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:'Good and evil don't exist i'm afraid. They are indeed a matter of perception.

In my experience the most evil seeming people still have good intentions and believe they are doing good.

Take osama bin laden, to many he represents pure evil, to others he represents a small glimmer of hope against the evil empire.

Same with the bush administration, although if evil does exist you're likly to find it there

Just a matter of perspective.

I can't think of a single example of something that could be considered good or evil from all perspectives. Even the Devil is worshipped by satanics, the christian god is thought to be Satan by many, seems reasonable when you look at catholicism.'


ARGH! You are confusing the fact that people think different things with the idea that there is no truth of the matter. Why not just suppose that some people (i.e. people who think it's OK to torture, rape, murder, & pillage) have got it wrong?

Good and evil do exist; they are not just a matter of perception. People do have different perceptions of good and evil, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Your argument is horribly flawed.

Here's an example of something that could be considered evil from all perspectives: child abuse.

Or do you disagree?


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quiet, could I request that, when quoting people, you do so in a clearer way, as in your post above, and in several others I've seen, there is no distinction whatsoever between your words and those of the person you're 'quoting'.

This is OK for those following that particular discussion, but, for those new to it, it's deeply confusing.

One way to do this is make use of the 'quote' button on the top right of each persons post (then delete the text that isn't relevant), or, if for some reason you don't wish to do that, a simple line of dashes "-------" between the other persons text and yours, will help immensly with clarity.

Hope you're not offended by this suggestion; your points are good and interesting.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:sure thing - apologies

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:"Your argument is horribly flawed." ~ Quiet

lol, You just proved my point about perspective, thank you quiet.

As for rape and child abuse, yes they are very bad but IMO not evil. Take for example the point of view of an iraqi mother who witnesses the genocidal killing of her entire family, and everyone she knows. To her child abuse would not seem particulary evil.

Now consider the average middle american citizen's opinion of the genocidal killing of that womans family and friends, they don't consider that to be evil in any way.

So you see, it's just a matter of perspective. But it's fine for you to have a different view point from me quiet because after all, right and wrong don't exist. Of course i don't really expect you to grasp any of this mr quiet.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:Written by: quiet

Here's an example of something that could be considered evil from all perspectives: child abuse.

Or do you disagree?


what about the perspective of the abuser?

i think i agree with spherculist Written by: spherculist
I can't think of a single example of something that could be considered good or evil from all perspectives



but i also agree with Written by: quiet
People do have different perceptions of good and evil, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist



but i am not sure what exist means in this context? confused


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:----------'lol, You just proved my point about perspective, thank you quiet.'

Oh, jesus. I'll keep it simple.

1. Just because two people have different perspectives doesn't mean that there isn't a fact of the matter.
2. For instance, if someone thinks the Sun goes round the Earth, then they are wrong.
3. ALL YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED IS THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE THINK DIFFERENT THINGS. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

so your claim that 'you can't think of . . . something that could be considered good/evil from all perspectives' doesn't establish anything about whether there is such a thing as right or wrong. All it shows is that people rarely agree on such things.

Lastly:

sperculist: -----'Take for example the point of view of an iraqi mother who witnesses the genocidal killing of her entire family, and everyone she knows. To her child abuse would not seem particulary evil . . . rape and child abuse, yes they are very bad but IMO not evil.'

What? Are you crazy?

You don't even need to go that far for your example.

Consider: a psychopathic serial rapist might well think that rape is absolutely fine. He enjoys it, after all. There are two possibilities, then:

i) We have different attitudes, and that's all that can be said about it.
ii) We're right - rape is evil - and he's wrong.

Which do you think? Oh, of course - you don't think that rape is evil. Ever met a rape victim, spherculist?


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