Page:
quietanalytic
503 posts
Location: bristol


Posted:
And, over here, the metaphysics thread.

For all your UTOR needs . . .

ture na sig


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
I can't find fault with your optimism quiet but are the sorts of people who are going to hold a metaphysics debate going to be sensible enough to stick it all in one thread?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Thank you Quiet!

Now that we know where all of these debates are going to take place, it becomes much easier to dispose of them.

(Only kidding man beerchug) peace

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
I'm bouycotting this thread until I've finished my metaphysics exam on thurday tongue I'm getting more than enough madness for one week, thank you very much!

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


quietanalytic
503 posts
Location: bristol


Posted:
good luck! [or: 'i hope it went well'

ture na sig


BumfroIts a bum with an afro...
223 posts
Location: Newcastle NSW


Posted:
p.s. We're doing tumbling in gym!

Racism is a weapon of mass destruction


nomeSILVER Member
Member
35 posts
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom


Posted:
Yeay, a place to ask for help with my homework smile

BumfroIts a bum with an afro...
223 posts
Location: Newcastle NSW


Posted:
i believe metaphysics is an old, old wooden ship used in the civil war.

Racism is a weapon of mass destruction


ShuBRONZE Member
Retro Fyre Wizzard
538 posts
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN), South Africa


Posted:
is there any such ting as good and evil?
or light and dark?
or life and death?
or is it mearly a matter of perception?

Regards hug

Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)

You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! ubbloco
Yes, i do bite!!


SickpuPpyNinja Rockstar!
1,100 posts
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.


Posted:
Written by: Shu


is there any such ting as good and evil?
or light and dark?
or life and death?
or is it mearly a matter of perception?




I believe that if I had a definitive answer, backed with definitive proof, for that question I would be a very very rich man.

Jesus helps me trick people.


quietanalytic
503 posts
Location: bristol


Posted:
Yes
Yes
Yes
and
No

obviously

i'll provide proofs if you want; email or pm me.

idealism was refuted a number of years ago, after Berkeley posited his version thereof.

ture na sig


ShuBRONZE Member
Retro Fyre Wizzard
538 posts
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN), South Africa


Posted:
I'd be interested to see your proof! Altho "PROOF" is also merely a perception!



but if something cannot exist without something else, then how can it exist at all? It's merely a human perception to make sense of things!

Regards hug

Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)

You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! ubbloco
Yes, i do bite!!


SickpuPpyNinja Rockstar!
1,100 posts
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.


Posted:
Written by: quiet


Yes
Yes
Yes
and
No

obviously

i'll provide proofs if you want; email or pm me.

idealism was refuted a number of years ago, after Berkeley posited his version thereof.




Just because idealism was refuted doesn't change anything, lol.
It still can't be definitively proved beyond arguement.

Besides that, I'm of the opinion that science shouldn't be used to squeltch philosophy. Killing possibility for sake of arguement can only serve to limit science in the end.

Jesus helps me trick people.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Shu


I'd be interested to see your proof! Altho "PROOF" is also merely a perception!





Proof is a demonstration of logical certainty.

Even if all your senses were removed (vision, hearing etc) and you ceased to perceive; proofs would still be valid.

If 'x' is proved, it means that 'x' is true.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


SickpuPpyNinja Rockstar!
1,100 posts
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.


Posted:
Written by: onewheeldave


Proof is a demonstration of logical certainty.

Even if all your senses were removed (vision, hearing etc) and you ceased to perceive; proofs would still be valid.

If 'x' is proved, it means that 'x' is true.




That's a little "tree falling in the forest" don't you think?

Jesus helps me trick people.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
No.



The 'tree falling in the forest' is a minor puzzle with an easy solution; for anyone who wishes to demonstrate that they have little or no understanding of philosophy, there are few better ways than dragging the 'tree falling in a forest' into discussions where it is not relevant smile



In contrast proof is the very basis of all logical discourse- if proof is invalid then rationality is dead and meaningful talk about anything (including, of course, the validity or otherwise of proof) is impossible.



ie the moment you open your mouth and try to say anything meaningful, you presuppose proof.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


TheWibblerGOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand


Posted:
"If 'x' is proved, it means that 'x' is true. "

Assuming that truth exists, wink

"All Truths are but Half Truths"

m

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.


spiralxveteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
If we're talking about logic then truth exists as it is an axiom of the system.

"Moo," said the happy cow.


TheWibblerGOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand


Posted:
Yes spiralx, that's what i just said. You are assuming that truth exists in an absolute form. You are accepting that truth exists without proof that it does. If that assumption is incorrect then so is the system that relies on it.

Another axiom would be 'All truths are but half truths'.

This leads to another set of conclusions which are equally valid as those relying on a single absolute truth.

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.


RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic


Posted:

I recomend some Meta-matematics works, they are so nice smile

POI THEO(R)IST


BumfroIts a bum with an afro...
223 posts
Location: Newcastle NSW


Posted:
My cat drank toilet water, out of the toilet!!

Racism is a weapon of mass destruction


Posted:
which is sort of the expected eventuality, kind of like bolting your door with a boiled carrot...

Posted:
The...realm they inhabit is, and always has been, timeless and unchanging- unborn, uncreated and undying."

This sounds more believable since it refrains from subjective interest.
That anything of its supposed charachter, or lack of it, could be as accurately described as a "mathmatical realm" supposes, seems a little presumptious...but for want of better words and in that mathematics is taken by mathematicians to be a language capable of describing nature in its perceptively infinitesimal details,then...sure, i suppose... redface

TheWibblerGOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand


Posted:
Good and evil don't exist i'm afraid. They are indeed a matter of perception.

In my experience the most evil seeming people still have good intentions and believe they are doing good.

Take osama bin laden, to many he represents pure evil, to others he represents a small glimmer of hope against the evil empire.

Same with the bush administration, although if evil does exist you're likly to find it there wink

Just a matter of perspective.

I can't think of a single example of something that could be considered good or evil from all perspectives. Even the Devil is worshipped by satanics, the christian god is thought to be Satan by many, seems reasonable when you look at catholicism.

m

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.


Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
I really wanted to avoid wading in- but here i am..

Yup- I'm with Nietzsche- its all differences of degree- no absolutes, only perspectival existance. Nothing more on philosophy from me, I'll get out swatted very quickly in these parts.

quietanalytic
503 posts
Location: bristol


Posted:
'Good and evil don't exist i'm afraid. They are indeed a matter of perception.

In my experience the most evil seeming people still have good intentions and believe they are doing good.

Take osama bin laden, to many he represents pure evil, to others he represents a small glimmer of hope against the evil empire.

Same with the bush administration, although if evil does exist you're likly to find it there

Just a matter of perspective.

I can't think of a single example of something that could be considered good or evil from all perspectives. Even the Devil is worshipped by satanics, the christian god is thought to be Satan by many, seems reasonable when you look at catholicism.'


ARGH! You are confusing the fact that people think different things with the idea that there is no truth of the matter. Why not just suppose that some people (i.e. people who think it's OK to torture, rape, murder, & pillage) have got it wrong?

Good and evil do exist; they are not just a matter of perception. People do have different perceptions of good and evil, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Your argument is horribly flawed.

Here's an example of something that could be considered evil from all perspectives: child abuse.

Or do you disagree?

ture na sig


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quiet, could I request that, when quoting people, you do so in a clearer way, as in your post above, and in several others I've seen, there is no distinction whatsoever between your words and those of the person you're 'quoting'.

This is OK for those following that particular discussion, but, for those new to it, it's deeply confusing.

One way to do this is make use of the 'quote' button on the top right of each persons post (then delete the text that isn't relevant), or, if for some reason you don't wish to do that, a simple line of dashes "-------" between the other persons text and yours, will help immensly with clarity.

Hope you're not offended by this suggestion; your points are good and interesting.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


quietanalytic
503 posts
Location: bristol


Posted:
sure thing - apologies

ture na sig


TheWibblerGOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand


Posted:
"Your argument is horribly flawed." ~ Quiet

lol, You just proved my point about perspective, thank you quiet.

As for rape and child abuse, yes they are very bad but IMO not evil. Take for example the point of view of an iraqi mother who witnesses the genocidal killing of her entire family, and everyone she knows. To her child abuse would not seem particulary evil.

Now consider the average middle american citizen's opinion of the genocidal killing of that womans family and friends, they don't consider that to be evil in any way.

So you see, it's just a matter of perspective. But it's fine for you to have a different view point from me quiet because after all, right and wrong don't exist. Of course i don't really expect you to grasp any of this mr quiet.

m

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.


oliSILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: quiet


Here's an example of something that could be considered evil from all perspectives: child abuse.

Or do you disagree?



what about the perspective of the abuser?

i think i agree with spherculist
Written by: spherculist

I can't think of a single example of something that could be considered good or evil from all perspectives




but i also agree with
Written by: quiet

People do have different perceptions of good and evil, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist




but i am not sure what exist means in this context? confused

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


quietanalytic
503 posts
Location: bristol


Posted:
----------'lol, You just proved my point about perspective, thank you quiet.'

Oh, jesus. I'll keep it simple.

1. Just because two people have different perspectives doesn't mean that there isn't a fact of the matter.
2. For instance, if someone thinks the Sun goes round the Earth, then they are wrong.
3. ALL YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED IS THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE THINK DIFFERENT THINGS. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

so your claim that 'you can't think of . . . something that could be considered good/evil from all perspectives' doesn't establish anything about whether there is such a thing as right or wrong. All it shows is that people rarely agree on such things.

Lastly:

sperculist: -----'Take for example the point of view of an iraqi mother who witnesses the genocidal killing of her entire family, and everyone she knows. To her child abuse would not seem particulary evil . . . rape and child abuse, yes they are very bad but IMO not evil.'

What? Are you crazy?

You don't even need to go that far for your example.

Consider: a psychopathic serial rapist might well think that rape is absolutely fine. He enjoys it, after all. There are two possibilities, then:

i) We have different attitudes, and that's all that can be said about it.
ii) We're right - rape is evil - and he's wrong.

Which do you think? Oh, of course - you don't think that rape is evil. Ever met a rape victim, spherculist?

ture na sig


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