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Forums > Social Chat > Official HoP Marriage Proposals thread (* & English linguistics symposium, too! *)

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:MOST OF PAGE 1 of THIS THREAD is the former "C@ntus, FireMike and everyone on the state of the English Language & where we're going" thread, a symposium on English Linguistics; if you want to explore that, please go ahead and continue in this thread, BUT

THE REST OF PAGE 1 & ONWARDS are now the

OFFICIAL HOME OF POI MARRIAGE PROPOSALS MATCHMAKING PARLOR

please jump in, meet your perfect mate, get trolled, get engaged, hope, plead, gripe, bare your heart, hide it, or masquerade, play hard to get, advise the innocent & the guilty, beat that f*ckin frustratin "Lonely Hearts" thread avoid commitment, find meaning in your life with. . . well, whomever and however many life-mates fire up ya warm lil core. . .(but watch out, we got fickle fire goddesses famouse for burnin up hundreds of lovers & shifty-flame "chat up line" fire-breather studs here) ooze hormones & pheromones, go limp after twitching in tantric ecstasy, have sex, or. . .hey, that's most of it already, ain't it?

Jade Lynx, FireMike, Flynt, Raymund Phule, pozee, Nyx & bambam & a whole lots of others already are, so come on it to da parlor now!

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This is how this thread began out of another thread:

~

Original Topic: The adventures of Sammy the Sperm
SickpuPpy posted 14 September 2002 12:46
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Before you get mad this game was made possible by the good people at the Prostate Cancer Chairity. Panet prtostate [ all bold highlights added by FireMike ]

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If you love something, set it on fire.
Never stand too close to a naked samurai.
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Posts: 794 | From: Denver, Co. U.S.A.


C@ntus posted 14 September 2002 12:54
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How many L's in "planet"?

~ C@ntus

I mean do I even look like a puppy? No. So why do you think I might be a puppy?
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opening the doors of perception to see if the milk has been delivered yet.


FireMike posted 14 September 2002 12:58
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mein gott, C@ntus, maybe it's a slang abbreviation of a diminuitive or diminuitively termed bread? and we being observant, one spiced with a rare or new or locally-named spice, or served stuffed with a delicacy from ptarmigan?

~ FireMike


SickpuPpy posted 14 September 2002 13:00
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Oh, I see Noah Webster has taken fraggle form to exact revenge against me for my hasty typing


FireMike posted 14 September 2002 13:02
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yo, dogg, for a canine who's illin, i be allus so awed by your ability to type in human english, i be allus givin ya props.

cookie?

i like you style, and i be trying to learn your language too, i bark with my English Springer Spaniel bro like all da time, we tell humans it's "dog talk."

sorry, i be on slow dial-up usully, like now, so flash still comin in then i go swim wit da lil sperms

~ FireMike

C@ntus posted 14 September 2002 13:00
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[later deleted: the previous variation of the post immediately below]

~ C@ntus

C@ntus posted 14 September 2002 13:04
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and the skies darkened , and the world grew cold, and all about were suddenly American .

What are you on about now? Noah who ?

~ C@ntus


FireMike posted 14 September 2002 13:07
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^ so young living scions of the Old World double-post that they may seem to have more weight in the living world, the sense of doom attached to their part of it being something they imagine applies to all the rest as if evolution's actual directions now were not good?

~ FireMike


C@ntus posted 14 September 2002 13:10
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My double posts are a spot the difference competition. No two are the same. the second is always the edit of the first.

~ C@ntus


FireMike posted 14 September 2002 13:18
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^ ha! but you deleted one now. right now, i'm playing panet prtostate. i will reply once in verse after that.

~ FireMike


C@ntus posted 14 September 2002 13:24
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yeah the first one. the erroneous one. the one that made the second one necessary.

I don't edit the actual post. I make a subsequent one. Then delete the first. Much tidier that way.

~ C@ntus


FireMike posted 14 September 2002 13:36
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^ C@ntus, your last post is refreshing, and my respect for it.

[ 24 September 2002, 08:30: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:i must have been 15 when i wrote this, then much more influenced by my Zimbabwean British-style education, here it is from memory:

The tide of time slips through the grains
advancing over the ocean lands
as darkness comes
and life renews
and doom is cast upon the sands
of the old and wavering cultures,
while anew arises behind the wave
foundations of a newborn hope
in human minds,
in human hearts,
in desperate human hands
upon the sand,
where tendons strain,
furiously trying to retain
an unsteady grasp,
on life
on land
on influence in earthly tides
and yet succumb
to the death which shall reveal
the new generations
which firmly clasp
their chains of slavery
to the new-wrought shore
in worshipping fealty,
building it up,
growing with it,
finding a crest of their own
and reaching a new-found glory
then, as it falters,
resisting,
crying with it,
dying with it,
for a new age.

not so profound, yet what Keats & others saw in the tumbled ruins of statuary, heads of kings lying sideways in the neglected sand. . . the sad thing is that we WILL as a living practice lose much of the finest of what we globally, including in the finest expressions and content of the English language, have built, through Generation Y, the erosion begun long before X in America, while originally black rap has given us the only rhyme, and new forms at that, the best not being the most popular recordings you may have heard, but the "science" rap with full vocab use, not necessarily ebonic, full American English vocab use, in incredibly tight, quick-composition (truly spontaneous verbal "spit" or internet written) forms. i'm most often in hard nuRock and tekno like most here, but was a moderator for a bit at battlerap.com, and great respect have i for the dozen or so at the top of that game, though few with the skill wish to apply it to meaningful material in the world.

while you notice i practice it quite assiduously when we're using the fullness of the English language, when not in dialect myself, i do not feel so strongly about spelling, nor even about grammar, in the sense of people making "mistakes" as opposed to recognizable approximations and ever-amusing variations. but then, i am almost always amused rather than disturbed, disgusted, or scandalised by such variances, unless they fall below my personal ability to decipher their intended meaning. and their unintended meaning, everything being on the artistic spectrum, may often prove amusing, though only because some of us have a broad enough grasp of the language to see other possibilities in what's said.

so already the question is, what is the next phase of the English language, especially with a heavily American influence, globally?

for England, what role now for the fabled (and real) old Oxbridge dons who preside over propriety in the dictionary, just like the old ones of the academy (i'm afraid i don't know their proper title) in France, guardians of the purity of the French language?

and is there a source, probably no longer academic at all, including school teachers, for evolving English? it already seems to be the streets. . . it always was, for the majority of innovation in the language, structurally and in vocab, though little from the streets filtered into the highest skill and class echelons of English-speaking. now, however, much street culture is admired in the UK, US, and elsewhere, certainly across Generation Y, and so influences vocal culture more deeply and thoroughly than ever before. while drug use is actually so casual and common, not everyone, but easily every few heads you count, it has been a major source of Gen Y slang in several Gen Y subcultures. black american experience is the hottest thing for whities and Asian-Americans, with its gritty pretend (for most of the whities and Asians) we're projects (public housing for the poor)-livin' 9-packed players, though real players including the rap stars are totally nouveau-riching now, which becomes the common social aspiration of the fans. inversions: "sick" is better than "ill" is better than "phatt" is better than ordinarily "bad." simplifications, "sorry, my bad." "what up?" "later." retro: Lenny Kravitz Jewish/black leads us back to the hippy vibe of 1973, and we get people saying "right on!" and "groovy" though with entirely new sound to it. and "dude" gets updated every generation with a new content, forms, and context.

tell me about how slang is evolving in England and wherever else you travel, join in community, or have ears, C@ntus

yours sincerely, Mike

[ 14 September 2002, 20:13: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:of course, as our thread title says, from my point of view, everyone's welcome to jump in here, is that ok with you, C@ntus?

molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:You sure do write pretty.

I'm not awake enough for this now - it's 3am and I've been making sculptures all day - I'll debate some tomorrow.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Coo! Ve le ir? Hablando de su jodida idioma como si fuera un regalo de Dis.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:^ remembered a few more lines, so revised the Tides verse

MiguelG! me falta muchas palabras jerigonzas o informales, porque no me siento seguro en comprendando tu comentario.

Es verdad que Espagnol seria mi preferencia primera como una lengua fluente.

Lo siento que no puedo me informar de "Coo" "Ve le [o]ir?" ni "jodida."

Pero puedo decirte que esta bien amusante incluir un poco de ritmo con versos, entonces, te invito a ti a contestar con verso como o cuando la Musa te guia. como eso, usamos todos los recursos completos de nuestra aventura, hasta ya, con el arte verbal.

[ 15 September 2002, 11:03: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:eeeeeeek! Talk about over the head!

What exactly is this thread actually about? In as few words as possible (for a very stupid fairy here)


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:I didn't understand any of the spanish. Was it relevent?

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by FireMike:
^ remembered a few more lines, so revised the Tides verse

MiguelG! me falta muchas palabras jerigonzas o informales, porque no me siento seguro en comprendando tu comentario.

Es verdad que Espagnol seria mi preferencia primera como una lengua fluente.

Lo siento que no puedo me informar de "Coo" "Ve le ir?" ni "jodida."

Pero puedo decirte que esta bien amusante incluir un poco de ritmo con versos, entonces, te invito a ti a contestar con verso como o cuando la Musa te guia. como eso, usamos todos los recursos completos de nuestra aventura, hasta ya, con el arte verbal.Ok, I'll go back to English.

The best translation is "Oh damn, there they go talking about their fucking language like it was a gift from G-d."

In Spain, at least, Coo is "damn" (more or less...Spanish curses don't translate exactly because they get used in different contexts than the equivalent English curse), and joder is "fuck." Hence, "jodido" is "fucked," but is used like "fucking."

I was just feeling silly. Although Spanish is technically my first language, English is my mother tongue.

And now, back to my jodido studying.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Yes, indeed, talking about English like it was a gift from God. But the thing is, it is a gift, just as all language is. The ability to communicate is essential, language, the tool of communication, is a gift. It is also something that can be misused to prevent clear and honest communication. Language is a very powerful instrument.

To return to the subject, language evolves, it needs to evolve to stay relevant and stay alive. Hence the shortcuts of text messages & emails. But with all evolution, certain parts will die out. These can be beautiful parts, akin to a creature never to walk this earth again. Think of the overuse of the words "nice" and "good", and think of all the words with their subtle nuances that these two words have come to replace. We have lost them in our everyday language.

And don't think that the protection of language is the sole prerogative of Oxford Dons. This is only the most simplistic & stereotyped view. Each generation derides the changes to the language that the next generation brings. Ask your parents what they think of today's spoken language. And ask yourself what you think of the language of an "alien" group, maybe a group of teenagers, or even a group of business people (If you have ever read the phrase "please find enclosed" in a business letter you will know that they have evolved a whole new subspecies of language ).

Why shouldn't we regret words and phrases we have lost? They had a purpose, they were "created" to describe subtleties of feeling and knowing that maybe we will lose because we no longer have the words for them.

And rules of grammar? well, yes, they can be a pain. However that too serves a purpose. Grammar is the architecture of language. It provides a solid structure so that the meaning of a sentence doesn't fall down. Some people have done daring new things with grammar, you can see it in poetry, & in everyday language. Sometimes the meaning is enhanced, yet sometimes, it means that the meaning becomes muddled and elusive. Like architecture, it helps to know the rules with grammar. If you know the rules, and know why they are there, you can break them.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Any one who knows the story of romeo and juliet will find this absolutely HILARIOUS!!!!

http://myboringlife.com/l33t/romeo.html
br>
Is a good indicator as to where our language is going...

the site may take you a while to download and the story does go for a little while, so give yourself enough time before you click on the link.


HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:flash fire!

sorry, i can't get that page to load, even on the faster machine to which i have access, but hey,

being a crude american, i was totally rocked by Baz Luhrman[n?]'s Romeo and Juliet anyone see that, maybe 4 yrs ago now, DiCaprio (who's ok in it, just before Titanic ), can't remember lead chick's name, she was just sweet. . . used automatics & set in some blend of old Venice and maybe Venice Beach in LA's westside on the ocean.

in this case, not a syllable of Willie's writing was changed, it was all context and vibe.

yes, Rozi, i think language is a wonderful growing thing, in fact when they land and ask to be taken to our leader (in case one exists). . . first surprise to other life/existence forms. . . then find we don't even have a single common language, while English is the latest opportunist to imperialise the world. . . next surprise for them, most likely, not to guess too much about them either. . .

and some of the issues in English and in many others continue to be the late working out of class/ educational level influences on dialect and usage, the most fascinating for me are the 5 or 6 subcultures of Gen Y as the next carrier and rapid developer of the language - " that's just totally sick" and maybe, actually, reduced filtering into american english of foreign-inspired terms, sure we're right now a net addition to japanese, african speech, and maybe grudgingly european.

C@ntus, the Spanish is not relevant, except for item (3) below.

MikeGinny made his comment, and i told him (1) i couldn't quite understand all of it because i didn't have the slang he used, though using Spanish Spanish, Mike's in Michigan, and i probably use a pair of pocket dictionaries which would cover most New World Spanish, though they too must slip out of date. . . and (2) i told him that if i had a choice, Spanish is my first for a fluent language, though i haven't that grace yet. (3) i invited him and anyone to use verse or any other linguistic form here, as the Muse guides him, so that in this discussion, we ourselves are all free to use the fullness of the medium of the English (now, by MikeGinny, of others too) language, in all its wonderful (or not) forms and aspects, since that's what we're exploring.

MikeGinny, got almost your gist, while a slight sardonic paranoia might have seen a barb aimed at me for using verse at all, though i wouldn't have minded. slight guess at [o]ir now included in my post responding to yours. and thanks to you, Mike, i've changed my sig today.

so, C@ntus, how do you conceive of language as a growing thing, and where do things like spelling and rules of any one time or of backbone or however you express your construction of it. . .how do they fit in the clockwork of the moment and the amoebic pseudopodia reaching out and engulfing and being stimulated by things outside the semi-permeable membrane of any mass we call a "language"?

[ 15 September 2002, 11:30: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Being a student of writing and language i got a few points to make.

**********WARNING, the following section is for intrest only and to make me look clever, jump down to get the conclusion************

Firstly, Grammer:

Most peaple are not aware of the rules of grammer they enploy, this only becomes apperant if you try and teach your language to a non-native speaker. Things like reflexive verbs that are context driven are a good example, the diffrences between 'put out' 'put up' 'put across' 'put about' 'put down' are huge in thier meanings. The opposite of 'put in' is not 'put out' but 'take out'. The point here is grammer is more complicated than peaple conciously know, and evolves from usage, which takes me onto my second point.

In structural linguistics there is a distinction between 'la lange' (the language) and 'la parole' (the speach). La lange is the system of language regardess of context, an a-historical viewpoint through which the structalists hoped to unravel how communication actually worked. la parole is the everyday use of language by its operators, us.

It is widly agreed now that the sturctualists failed in thier aims because they discarded la parole, thinking that the rules of language, its grammer were more inportant. This whole area has huge realms for debate, but for the point were looking at we can think of FireMikes viewpoint of being that of la parole.

Post-structualist linguustics tends to look at usage, after the discovery that many languages operate in totally diffrent ways, for example in north american indian languages there is no verb/noun distinction as every thing has an associated action.

Also, in recent studies on language involving comunicating robots (so that language algorythums would have an enviroment to react with) it was found that the robots developed and shared a vocabulary that was not pre-programed simply by interacting, this suggests that language arises from common enviromental factors that are shared between otherwise independant bodies. in other words you say what you see.

I redily admit that this is not such a staggering conclusion but it is an argument that has been raging in academic circles for years. Academics can be so booring.

*******over complex background finnished, conclusion follows***********

so, my conlusion is that language is an organism that is supported and evolved by its enviroment through its operators (us). There fore there is no 'correct' language usage if it fufills it perpous, the transfer of data from one body to another.

It may be that certain nuances are dying out but are being replaced with new ones, as pointed out eirlier through words like 'phat' 'sick' 'large'. It really dosnt matter if a spelling or grammer is out as long as the relevent information is transmitted.

The only other consideration in this matter is cross boarder comunication. Before the advent of the printed word english was really several dialects in diffrent parts of the country, and most peaple speak two languages, their local dialect and Recived Pronounciation. RP is used for cross boarder communication and its correctness and rules become more inportant the further you go, especially in the case of text, which is far more open to misinterpretation because it discards about 90% of the data trasmitted through speach.

However, as comuication technologies evolve, the distances in language terms are becoming less, so that the RP itself is evolving, no longer bound to stirct rules for its survival as it can be adapted real-time rather than with the interviening process of trasmitting say a letter from one place to the other. This further erodes the kneed for strict rules of spelling and grammer.

yes thease old words like acquiesce wich are beutifull and expressive will go, but if they only mean someting to old men in towers then they deserve to. Thats life baby!

cor, must have been a couple of days since i wrote a post this length.

Love
N


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Nix?, I ain't never heard of no reflexive verbs or post-structuralist linguistics tends. But for problems like “diferences between 'put out...etc’ are huge in their meanings” .

Wouldn’t people be better off saying what they mean, rather than resorting to jargon/slang/lingo i.e.

'put out' = extinguish
'put up' = accommodate
'put across' = explain
'put about' = promiscuous
'put down' = insult

What do you reckon?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:I think this thread was off topic from the first word!! Dont let the man put you down keep this thread goin!!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:I really have no idea what any one is talking about.

I correct peopele's spelling and complain about grammar because, sometimes, I find it tricky to understand what people are trying to say. And if I find it hard then others must find it tricky too.

As to the rest of the thread, it's all way over my head. I'm really not clever enough to debate it. Like i tried to tell you in the PM i don't understand a lot of the intellectual topics on this site.
The last one i got involved in, I had to get Charles and Bendy to break it down into smaller chunks for me and even then it was still quite complicated. It was about intellectual property or something. Maybe.

I have a good memory. That's the sum total of my intellect. I can remember whole conversations from months ago. I can remember exact posts. Little details about people that they mentioned in passing, one time, ages ago.

I'm not one for debate.

I dont read long posts. I tend to skip through them to see if I'm mentioned. I tend to feel if you can't get your point across in a few words then you're just over complicating the matter.

Any thread that's too complicated I scan, but mostly, avoid.
I sometimes get involved if it looks like folks are arguing (the anti war/pro america arguement between Scott and Daniel springs to mind). But mostly those long debating threads are just people saying the same ideas over and over in different voices.

My american comment was aimed at Mr Puppy. Hoping he would tell me what he meant by Noah Webster. As I have no clue who this is.

I mocked Puppy initially because we've been friends for a while now and i knew he could take it as a joke. Which is all it was.

I don't know where language is going. I know where it's been cos i read a book about it. But whereever it goes i hope it takes a map, some sandwiches and enough change to get a bus back home.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:

C@ntus, you are an instinctive artist with language. Your humour shows this through and through, and I love it. I am going to contradict myself here. You don't have to know "the rules" of language to enjoy it and play with it.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:C@ntus,

(1) Noah Webster was originator of the still-in-use-and-updated American Webster dictionary, one so popular it's mentioned like a bible; in fact, he also published a Webster's bible. according to "Treasures of the Karpeles Manuscript Library":


Non-Https Image Link
from his Dictionary frontispiece --->
Non-Https Image Link


"Noah Webster (1758-1843) lexicographer, teacher, journalist, essayist, lecturer and patriot.

The name Webster has become a virtual synonym for the word Dictionary.

Noah Webster led a very active life. He served in the Revolutionary War and attended Yale College (graduating in the class of 1778). Webster went on to teach school, do clerical work, study law, and in 1781, was admitted to the bar.

While teaching, Webster became dissatisfied with the texts for children that ignored American culture and began his life-long effort to promote a distinctively American education. One of his first efforts was The American Spelling Book (1783); the famed "Blue Backed Speller" which has never been out of print and has had a total sales volume estimated at 100,000,000 copies.

In 1806, Webster published his Compendious Dictionary of the English Language. Although it was no more than preparation for his later dictionary, it contained 5,000 more words than Samuel Johnson's 1755 dictionary and also a number of innovations including the first separation of i and j, and v and u, as alphabetical entities. In addition to the compiling of The Dictionary, Webster wrote on many subjects including politics, medicine, economics and science.

One hundred years after Webster published his American Dictionary of the English Language it was hailed as the most significant contribution to the growth of English lexicography a view that is still true today.


Non-Https Image Link


The American Dictionary of the English Language was first published in 1828 and set the standard for all succeeding works that were to follow.

Webster's Dictionary contained over 70,000 entries, with 35,000 to 40,000 of those definitions never having been in any earlier dictionary.

Webster's emphasis was on American pronunciation and usage as distinguished from British forms. His dictionary was also noted for its clear and complete definitions and the inclusion of non-literary words and technical terms from the arts and sciences.....Perhaps its strongest new feature.

Unfortunately, the American Dictionary was relatively unprofitable and the 1841 revision unsuccessful.

After Webster's death in 1843, the rights to the dictionary were purchased by George and Charles Merriam. The new company and its successors continued the work with many subsequent revisions."

Noah came from a famous American founding family, as i think Daniel Webster, famous orator in the first generation of leaders, was probably related. Noah himself gaveAn Oration on the Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 1802.

earlier, C@ntus, didn't know if you were being funny saying "Noah who?", turns out, illustrating your dismay at Americanism in English language, Noah is an American language authority!

(2) as i too replied in my PM response to you, C@ntus, i gave up debate years ago. . . of all kinds. debate? (* bleahhhhhh! *) i invite everyone always to explore any wonderful element(s) of human experience with me, especially areas where i have no knowledge, nor developed an opinion, or outside both our starting points, things which recontextualise each of our perceptions in larger ways. that's fundamental growth, play, education, and development, and sometimes we'll even invent something truly new or newly connected together, our contribution to the subject .

C@ntus, relax, and enjoy this exploration, not you nor anyone else is called upon to be an expert or defend anything or debate anything. just express what you actually see & feel about the English language.

just SHARE -- we're family!

what do you think about changes in language, to start with, spelling? and if American language disturbs you, what about growth in the English language at all?

(3) C@ntus, do you feel English language SHOULD change, and even while spelling etc. helps you be sure what people mean right now, how important are they overall/ in the long run, especially in cases where you clearly know what word is meant even when misspelt, so you CAN say "how many l's in planet," there was no question in your reading that "planet" was intended. . . how important is spelling accuracy, for one, beyond how we grade a school paper? should people spend the necessary time and energy to be absolutely as correct as they are capable (and many will still contain, formally, errors in their writing) when they write & speak, or what is acceptable in general, and again, how do you feel about language changing, including SPELLING! see how it's changed in London from Shakespeare's time! and from what i know of the history of spelling, there was a general move, not really led by any single person or organisation, to standardise English spelling through the time of Willie and beyond, yet there is also a counter-tendency, since hippy times, to intentionally misspell for "groovy" effect, the latest thing being high-techy names like LifeConnexion (made-up example)?

some of us consider English not the language properly spoken only in OxBridge accents and grammar, but a family of dialects around the globe, each evolving differently but with our blessing of such fast communication and global community, the different subgroups of what is the greater English language family keep interacting and almost "tied" tighter than they ever have in the human past.

Nix?,

fascinating! love to get GOOD gists of where those who specialize (z for you!) in a field have gotten us. i'm out of date, no doubt, but done with edge-reading deconstructionism and Noam Chomsky whose admirers mainly fill the airwaves which reach me on the subject.

so i start in this thread as Parolist more than Languist, which is wonderful because always being more of a strategist than a tactician, maybe finally living in SoCal has mellowed me enough not to grab for structures in the Langue and insist they're the heart of it! they are at any moment, in order to fulfill enough rules so C@ntus can be sure what people are saying, but i know the Parole reaches deep in there. the ad-hoc communal-discursive "natural"/ "improvised" arising of language seems so natural, and we'd do it too lacking any existing common language, sure people are noticed doing this when 2 or more of different languages with none in common set about doing what the language is just a vehicle for doing. . . communicating, right?

Stone,

yeah, i value "saying what you mean" more and more. . . without being the least like a narrow literalist, ya notice. but notice, if you were a foreign-language speaker, your alternatives to "put X" require longer, polysyllabic, totally unrelated vocab learned - which is its stregth, except for such long words - but to grasp those in memory, you force the learner to learn totally different roots for each one! so the countervailing power of the "put X" set is they all start with a simple verb, "put," and get accessorized easily for more meanings from fewer sounds, memories, got that?

in this matter, chinese being monosyllabic, so each character is one sound is one meaning, though a complex word can be made of two or rarely more strung together, is the finest example, because they are totally flexible about what part of speech the one character fills. "wo"="i/me". notice no need to have separate "i" vs. "me" to begin with! flex 2: "wo (de) hua" = "my (belonging) speech" but you can casually skip the (de)= (belonging) is understood, so "wo hua" = "my speech" the "wo"=i now means "my!" and a word can be used for much wider variations of use, noun or verb or adjective, for example. much easier flex, and more general rules than that let the grammar flow.

we Americans in particular, Stone, tend to take a word then use it as many parts of speech, in our slang. like basketball's "slam dunk" was 2 action verbs describing a move series, then it became a noun, "she did a total slam dunk," and she sure wasn't playin basketall when she did that, then a new verb, your boss says, "Stone, let's see you slam dunk this client." and we go the other way, grab a whole situation/ idea, and make it a single abstract concept: even our current President says stuff like, "about that 'integrity' thing" or whatever "thing" like he's not really talking about integrity, he's talking about our almost purely verbal toy, "that 'integrity' thing" which only kinda still means "real" integrity.

one thing i always try to do is spell a person's name the way you spell it; so edit here to make sure Nix?'s name above has the "?" in it!

[ 16 September 2002, 20:16: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Wow, FireMike, all this over a spelling mistake. To answer your Q&Q's.

Noah Webster was originator of the still-in-use-and-updated American Webster dictionary, one so popular it's mentioned like a bible. Yeah, right. So when was Webster's written?

so already the question is, what is the next phase of the English language, especially with a heavily American influence, globally? Backwards? It seems like you expect America to conquer the world, literally! All I can say is that, there where a lot less words in the dictionary in mr shakespeare's time, but his works are still relevant today.

I suppose we should also remember that english is a living language, and is expected to change with time. Others languages like latin, for example, are considered dead because they are preserved in time, and don't change. Just ask a priest or scientist.

tell me about how slang is evolving in England and wherever else you travel, join in community, or have ears? We all have our own quirky ways. Over here in oz, we certainly have our own sense of humor and slang. Hoge's being a typical example of a "currency lad".

The name Webster has become a virtual synonym for the word Dictionary Yeah, maybe in the g'ole usa, which doesn't necessarily mean the "whole world" (well, not just yet, anyhow).

and get accessorized easily for more meanings from fewer sounds, memories, got that?. Kinda, but not if more meanings from fewer sounds is more confusing. No one said english was easy. Chinese's is not an easy language to learn either. There are world languages, I'm told. Can you sign?

even our current President says stuff like, "about that 'integrity' thing" or whatever "thing" like he's not really talking about integrity he's talking about our almost purely verbal toy, "that 'integrity' thing" which only kinda still means "real" integrity . U serious ???????????????? Ain't no integrity in that statement, no matter how you spell it.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Bram....


member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess

Total posts: 1551
Posted:poo

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Thats another way of putting it (<-- another one) Bram, more succinct too.

N


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Bram, stop saying poo.

Nice new name though.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Ok. random thoughts dragged from where ever.

English, like every language, needs to grow. Otherwise the only option is to wither and die.

Due to speaking them being made illegal (by England - rectrified now) both Welsh and Irish all but died out. There are no native speakers of Cornish.

Abrupt stops are not the way forwards in any language.

So instead of Webster I should say Oxford English. That's ok.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Jade Lynx


member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...

Total posts: 239
Posted:FireMike, based on what i have seen in this thread i just have to ask...

will you marry me?


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:first priorities first, peeps,

Jade Lynx,

i'm single, do i audition?

PS, heaven-stone feline, most of my family in this generation reverse-discriminates at first blush, a bit wary of asian dates, but if i got stuck in that, i wouldn't date others in my multicultural personal history: africans, caucasians, jews, catholics, protestants, hindus, buddhists, confucians, atheists, orthodox, quasi-classicists, new age/new thought, The Confused, The Anaesthetized, The Hyper, the deadpan, the realpolitik, the pragmatic, the dramatic, the romantic, progressives, colonialists, US republicans, US democrats, liberarians, latins, iranians. . .

C@ntus,

wonderful to have your perspectives flow in this last round -- wade across as many bovines as you please! did you ever read Noble House, which is really a fictionalized story of the English Jardine Matheson house which was a commercial/political founder of Hong Kong, by novelist James Clavell? (in his Taipan series)

Stone,

"all this over a spelling mistake," no, that's just the thing which started a more important conversation, thanx for playing in it with us all! and note some of the pro-American stuff you quoted was not me in my own opinion but my quoting of others, i am not the biggest fan of nationalities anymore at this stage of human sociopolitical development, though it's useful for developing political communities yet. always admired oz attitudes. Chinese & another tone-modulated language i learned of from a speaker from West Africa are easy to learn as spoken language from youth only, and especially for musicians, as it uses or gives you tonal awareness within phonemes. almost wrote a book myself on "dog talk." seriously, may do it yet. i don't sign yet, will learn sometime, along with CPR. do you?

Bram,

whoa, did i JUST see your name change back from "just call me BRAM" to "High Emperor BRAM"? it's like almost real-time! hey, e-mail me at FireMikeZ@yahoo.com, i got something to tell you without, forgive me, wading into your HoP names right now? thanx


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Jade Lynx


member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...

Total posts: 239
Posted:quote:Originally posted by FireMike:
first priorities first, peeps,

Jade Lynx,

i'm single, do i audition?

PS, heaven-stone feline, most of my family in this generation reverse-discriminates at first blush, a bit wary of asian dates, but if i got stuck in that, i wouldn't date others in my multicultural personal history: africans, caucasians, jews, catholics, protestants, hindus, buddhists, confucians, atheists, orthodox, quasi-classicists, new age/new thought, The Confused, The Anaesthetized, The Hyper, the deadpan, the realpolitik, the pragmatic, the dramatic, the romantic, progressives, colonialists, US republicans, US democrats, liberarians, latins, iranians. . . Um, well, i'm not Asian.
Smart mouthy loving super-liberal hyper-verbal/visual firedancing animal-loving Pagan Euromutt, actually... Dramatic, pragmatic, romantic, and rather a goofball.
Are you Asian?

It'd be easier to check out your audition if i were back in Cali...
*sigh*

But i'm thrilled to pieces to see someone thinking and feeling so much about language. Humans are not the only animals with language, but we're the only ones who can write it down and express abstract concepts with it, and i do believe that language is a large part of what makes us human...

More on both of these thoughts after i get some sleep and therefore coherence...


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:ah, yes, Jade Lynx!

asian's an initial happenstance in my genes, wonderfully mutated within my early lifetime like all vibrant specimens of flourishing species.

and having covered the commonplace, i'm a filid in the Irish Celtic tradition, plenty flavoring spun from tribes like pagani, have long had a lifestance vow to my lady Kamala, high priestess now of Chicago out of Denver, grew up with bantu Shona and Zulu-descendent Matabele in Southeast Africa, and in sanctity of fire, am confirmed atravan by priestess of El Morya. . .

(* slow, comfortable smile *) lookin hearin tastin feelin sensin for when ya wake. . .

[ 21 September 2002, 19:57: Message edited by: FireMike ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:ah, wonderful "old Laguna girl," Ms. Jade Lynx Dietz, sorry to have not remembered how you welcomed me in my intro thread as a native "Lagunatic" yourself, still proud to say it's your home in your profile!

pretty please, i'm just a lil fool, will you forgive me for being a bit tired myself that post (i'm doing some recuperating at home) & incompletely savoring all your gorgeous facets?

(* giving you all my attention, filling my sense with you, and hopefully exuding irresistible sincerity like an apologetic, persuasive, endearing pheromone *)


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Jade Lynx


member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...

Total posts: 239
Posted:Check your pm's, sunshine!

We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:feline goddess , check yours!

molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Uhh ohh sound like wedding bells are gonna ring!!!

Ahh amore' (SP)


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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