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Forums > Social Discussion > The need of Fire Water info

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Sakura_Moon


Sakura_Moon

Hop's Kitten Jester.
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Austral...

Total posts: 1803
Posted:I did a Durbs, i didnt find anything on Firewater and people have bene asking about it lately so i thought i would explain.
Over here in Australia we usually use Fire Water instead of Kero or lamp oil for example.
It has been banne din some countries becuase, as mentioned in small detail somewhere else, people can mistake it for a drink, it has no distince taste or smell.
It is a little on the expensive side, $25 for 5 litres i think, and around $80 for 20 litres.
It has benefits, however,
It doesnt smell when you're twilring, or leave a smell on your clothes, the chances of it staining your clothes is very low, its slightly thicker than kero.
Its also safer because it produces a low temperature flame...i think. Unlike some fuels, you can go straight back to dip your poi/staff again, without really worrying about whether your fuel will blow up in your face because your toy is still too hot. Believe it or not that has happened.
Fire water on the whole is really good, i'm not an expert on it but i prefer it to any other fuel.
Peace out, save the whales.


.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Here's a copy-and-paste of my post on the other thread.



==================

From what I've heard there was once a substance called 'fire water' used by jugglers who wanted to fire breathe but disliked the taste of paraffin.



'Fire water' had additives to kill the taste and was quite popular. However, it was banned due to people accidently mistaking it for a drink- it's lack of taste meant it could be accidently consumed by mistake.



In hindsight as well, I think it was established that it was less safe than normal fuel as the additives used to kill the taste where pretty toxic.



Things got confusing when, after the ban, a sheffielder decided to bring in a substitute by buying a large quantitiy of what I believe was pure paraffin. This was paraffin but without additives and therefore is actually safer (less toxic) than other fuels.



Despite the fact that it was not really anything like the original 'fire water' (being less toxic and also having a paraffin taste), he decided to market it under the name 'fire water'.

=================



I'd advise caution on using stuff named 'fire-water' due to the possible toxicity of the additives that kill the taste.



(that would apply mainly to fire breathing of course, for spinning, if it's as safe as sakura reckons, it'd be fine I guess)



It sounds like the Australian stuff is indeed the original fire water- outside of Australia it would be dangerous to assume that fuel labeled 'fire-water' was the same substance- it could be anything.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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DoktorSkell
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land

Total posts: 475
Posted:

i have a copy of the Australian fire water MSDS and it looks ok apart from the fact it has Naptha in it.


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:My toys haven't been dunked in anything other than firewater for the past 4 years smile Wouldn't use it (anymore) for firebreathing. Wouldn't firebreath period.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:mad Wot a load of rubbish!!!!

Dave, where did all this crap come from? Written by:
Fire water' had additives to kill the taste and was quite popular. However, it was banned due to people accidently mistaking it for a drink- it's lack of taste meant it could be accidently consumed by mistake.



Wot did someone put it in a coke bottle and sell it as coke???????? It doesnt smell any different than Shellsol.

Where do u guys get all this info on wot is safe, or wot is safer that sumthing else. Mate, theyre all hydrocarbons, and theyre are extremely dangerous . That includes flash point, skin absorption, etc.

Firewater is sold in Australia by Juggleart, and is NOT sold for fire breathing. And that is clearly spelt out on the label. Juggleart are extremely safety conscious, and they will probably stop selling this great product due to all the crap, and people getting hurt firebreathing.

In a nut shell, you have diesel/kero at one end of the spectrum and petrol (whitegas/shellite) at the other. Firewater is similar to other solvents like ShellSol/Pegasol, which are in-between. Whitgas/shellite are basically petrol without the additives, and they will ignite if you put in a hot poi.

Honestly, Im surprised by this apparent lack of fuel knowledge, especially will all the safety info about. Read up guys. Who dunks with an open contaioner? How much solvent evaporates?

No offence to the professionals. But personally fed up with all the stupid fire breathers, who think they are soo great because they just learnt this new trick at the Backpackers and don't have a clue what they are doing. Firebreathing is so passe, in my opinion.

mad mad mad


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Hi Stone!
That's exactly the problem, what people do with it! I met someone who once drank a sip of paraffine because someone DID put it in a normal bottle. People are stupid sometimes, even fire jugglers, and don't care what the label says, or that they shouldn't drink from random people's bottles. But if it had had additives and hadn't tasted so horribly of paraffin he might've had more than just a sip!


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I dont think it would taste very nice though. Perhaps, I should offer my body for a scientific taste test?



Seriously, drinking from a random bottle is just XXXXX. Even in pubs, people should never leave their drink unwatched. They did in Robert Johnson that way, and drink spiking in escalating. And there is that disease?.



Late addition: The reason Firewater is not available in 1 litre containers any more, is to discourage casual users, as a 5 litre container represents a significant investment.



Apologies if I appear a bit emotional on this one. But why is it always the people who do the right thing that end up wearing it? frown

EDITED_BY: Stone (1109929958)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:The original fire-water had additives that removed the taste.

Some people put their fuel in drinking bottles- it may be stupid but it happens.

Other people, in the excitment of a gig, can easily reach for a bottle of what appears to be water, and, being hot, thirsty and excited, take a huge gulping swig.

I'm sure that they will immediately realise something is not right, but by then it's too late.


(As a child I did something very similar- in a fit of thirst on a really hot day I downed a glass of orange juice in one swig- immediately it'd gone down I realised it was absolutely rancid- but I'd swallowed it and it was too late; the next two days I was pretty ill with food poisoning).

Of course, this could happen with any fuel in a drinking bottle, it's just more likely with a fuel that is designed specifically to not taste of much.

Any children around at the gig are even more susceptible to this.

------------

Now I don't know if Jugglearts 'fire water' has additives to remove the taste-

if it doesn't, then fine- it's obviously a different substance to the original.

if it does (and this applies to any fuel that is modified to reduce it's taste), then sticking a label on it saying 'not suitable for fire-breathing' is IMO, a little strange.

It seems to me that the only reason for putting additives in fuel to remove the taste, would be if you're aiming it towards fire-breathers/eaters.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:Written by: Stone

No offence to the professionals. But personally fed up with all the stupid fire breathers, who think they are soo great because they just learnt this new trick at the Backpackers and don't have a clue what they are doing. Firebreathing is so passe, in my opinion.

mad mad mad



i understand your sentiment but dont make such general statements...by doing so you DO offend the professionals...but i totally know where your coming from...some kid saw a pic of me blowing fire...tried it w\gasoline...and i got some VERY pissed off emails from his parents who were threatening to sue for negligence...so yeah i agree...the way i see it...is unless your being trained by a professional...dont do it

and ive got an MSDS on firewater if anybody wants it j

ust send me a pm


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Unfortunately darkpoet, we all get tainted with the same brush. I think I also made that point. Had a msds somewhere. Is it the Juggleart firewater msds?



For a start Dave, firewater is for juggling torches. Are you saying there should not be a warning on the label?



And, I would really like to know the source of all this information because it seems like a load of rubbish. Someone fills up a drink container with a dangerous substance. Someone drinks the substance get ill. So they ban they substance. Yes, thats logical!



Did they ban all the other substances they people put in drink bottles? Did they ban kero/pure kero/citronella/petrol/metho/weedicide or any other product that people decide to drink by mistake? NO. Plenty of other things we consume are poisonous like panadol, but they are not banned. Something is missing from this story. Was there an epidemic of people drinking firewater?



I would also suggest that it would take more than one person having a sip of firewater for it to be banned. How toxic is it? Did the person die? Plenty of people have used it for breathing, so its not going to drop you on the spot.



again, I would suggest a source for this one because its highly volatile. Im not saying its not true, but I have never heard the one about having the taste of firewater altered. Like I said, it smells just like shellsol.



And if you cant come up with a source, then perhaps gossip should be removed. I mean it has not been established where said product comes from. Clarification please.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


From what I've heard there was once a substance called 'fire water' used by jugglers who wanted to fire breathe but disliked the taste of paraffin.




I think I made it clear that it's just 'what I heard.'

But there was a substance called 'fire water' and it was banned- like I said that's the reason the guy in Sheffield (who I knew), bought in a huge consignment of pure paraffin, to market as a replacement.

I've also made it clear that I don't know if the original 'fire-water' is the same as the juggleart stuff.

Could you clarify this for us Stone- is the fire-water sold by juggleart stuff that has additives to deaden the taste or not?

Also, as some here seem to have access to the MSDS sheet, could they perhaps post it here so we can get some idea of what the stuff is?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:And Stone, I'm not being critical of anyone, anything or any company/business here. This is about clarification. Even if jugglearts product is super-safe, the fact remains that the 'fire-water' issue is deeply muddled.



I've pointed out above that at least two very different substances have been called 'fire-water', one of which was not a particularly safe product to use (I can see no valid reason whatsoever to put taste deadening chemicals in a product designed for spinning/juggling with).



Depending on what the stuff is that juggleart sell, there could be three different products with the same name.



Let's clarify what we're actually talking about, and then we can come up with some reasonable conclusions.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well it's gossip!

I have never heard the one about having the taste of firewater altered. Like I said, it smells just like shellsol. I know they use shellsol for cleaning curtains. Will check. Many people will tell you that firewater is shellsol. A similar product to firewater, is just shellsol.

Whats the use of a msds if you don't know which firewater you mean. If there is more than one firewater.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Well how about an msds for jugglearts fire-water to start with?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:So how many people can actually interpret the data on a msds anyway??

I've been doing a lot of research on fuels over the past couple of days and I'm finding that more often than not, the mixture used to make up alot of these fuels is not described on the msds. The fact that this is an international forum only serves to complicate things further.

It looks like Stone has been doing his research too,,if we look at simple straight hydrocarbon chain chemistry as a spectrum, it may help to clarify matters. At the simplest, most extreme end of the spectrum, we have substances like methane, ethane, propane, butane ( 1->4 carbons, respectively) all these exist as a gas at STP ( one atmosphere pressure, 20 deg Celsius)

Moving up the spectrum...we start getting into the liquids molecules with 5 to 7 carbon atoms, are referred to as napthas, and yes, dry cleaning solvent fits in here..Molecules containing 7 to 11 carbons are used to make gasoline,,,petrol. And further up the spectrum still lies kerosene with 12 to 15 carbon atoms... after this we start getting into diesel fuel,,motor oil, gear lube, candle wax, tar, asphalt.....which are all useless to us as fire spinners.

So ....the smaller the molecule ,,,the more volatile, and therefore the more dangerous to use as fire spinning fuel. In Asia, I've seen people dunk burning poi into an open 20 litre tin of kerosene, this is normal, everybody does it, and if the 20 litre tin catches on fire,,,,just blow it out.. Now....if you tried that with naphtha ( colemans, shellsol isol 1520 ) it may just be the last thing you did.

I brought up Juggleart's website, but there wasn't much info as to what firewater actually IS but the best way to find out,,,,imo,,,is to email the company that makes the stuff and ask them. And if there is indeed a chemical to deaden the taste,,ask them why.


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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:If your fuel is a 'mixture' I'd reccommend looking up the MSDS for each separate ingredient smile

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok Dave, there are already two offers for MSDSs on the table. And I agree with stout, MSDS are difficult to interpret, and perhaps learning about the characteristsic of chemical group is more important.

Juggleart are rather guarded about the secrets of their Firewater wink However, the point I was trying to make is that this group of chemicals are low odour. And thats why Im willing to pay the extra shekels over kero. The odour free kero is just too expensive at $12/L.

Juggleart are extremely concerned about the misuse of their product, and they will not sell firewater to a person if there is even a hint that it will be used for breathing. I suspect this product will removed from sale because of all the agro they get with people misusing their product.

Bonus. I was pleasantly surprised to find the petroleum companies much easier to access compared to the last time I tried.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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marco


enthusiast
Location: uk

Total posts: 328
Posted:
I was under the impression there was a legal requirement to produce an msds for particular products where requested

mark


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