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Forums > Social Discussion > the power of the mind - controlling body and influencing the universe

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:so before i even get started i just want to put a warning of sorts in as i know alot of people took offense to some of the views offered in the hotties thread, so if the concept of being responsible for your life and being able to influence the events that occur in your life offends you please stop reading because its not my intention to offend anyone simply to discuss ideas and concepts



to believe one thing is to disbelieve the opposite, this limits your perception of the world, so please suspend your beleifs and disbeleifs to entertain the ideas that unfold within this thread



the mind and what its capable is something that particularly fascinates me, one of my personal goals this year is to learn firewalking. the goal behind this thread is to hear peoples personal experiences and ideas relating to the power of the mind and its influence on the body and surrounding universe. if you disagree or have a different opinion to one that is offered please quote the text that you disagree with and offer a reason as to why you disagree



things to bear in mind when reading this thread

1. all scientific human knowledge is based on observations which carries with it the possibility of human errors and assumptions (edited to add scientific in to clarify smile)

2. human perception is a limited range of all the information (ie infrared and ultraviolet light) that exists

3. the commonly accepted truth was once that the world was flat however this does not make it true

4. concepts are conveyed through language, language is based on an individuals life experiences as such meanings of words can vary from person to person



at this point in time i am of the opinion that the mind regulates all aspects of the body via the brain. here are some quotes from experimental findings from the book Best Evidence by Michael Schmicker,



"Researchers at the famed Menninger Foundation in Kansas tested one Indian yogi who could, at will, produce with his mind an 11 degree Fahrenheit difference between the left and right sides of the same palm, with one side turning pink from heat and the other turning gray from cold."



"a man with no yogic training who demonstrated the ability to voluntarily stop his heart -- to produce cardiac arrest -- on demand. EKG tests showed his heartbeat did indeed disappear completely. (As he began to faint from lack of blood, the subject would take a deep breath and revive himself)."



"In 1981, Benson and a group of researchers from the Harvard Medical School instrumented three Tibetan monks in India practicing a form of meditation called Tummo. The monks could take a blanket soaked in cold water, wrap it around themselves, and sit in the snow on a mountain top in a meditative trance. In the Harvard tests, the monks meditated for 55 minutes in an unheated, cold room, using their minds to raise their internal body temperature... All three monks produced dramatic body temperature changes. One 50-year old monk was able to raise the temperature of his toes by 15 degrees Fahrenheit; another 59-year old monk raised his finger and toe temperatures 11 and 12 degrees Fahrenheit respectively, and raised the overall temperature of the room he was meditating in by 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit."



"Using hypnosis, researchers are able to produce real, physical blisters, bruises and skin inflammations on test subjects simply with words"



"Documented clinical studies have shown the placebo effect has successfully relieved or cured hay fever, coughing, insomnia and sleep disorders, colds, headaches, diabetes, peptic ulcers, seasickness, and various kinds of pain including angina pectoris; reduced obesity and urinary incontinence; matched the effectiveness of anti-arthritic pills in treating the symptoms of arthritis and the effectiveness of chemical anti-depressants in treating depression; and treated anxiety. Placebos can speed up or slow down a heartbeat rate; alter moods and perceptions, produce observable calm or its opposite, nervousness; and even produce feelings of euphoria."



"Researchers say a doctor's diagnosis usually sets a patient's mind visualizing the outcome predicted by the doctor"



so if a dr tells you that something is the way it is and you believe them then often thats the way it will be.



my current thoughts on the working of the universe are



1. there is an energy connection between every entity in existence, the stronger your relationship with the entity the stronger the connection

2. the natural state of life is growth but it exists in two states growth and the cycle of stagnation death and decay

3. we exist and both individuals and as a collective (kind of like the internet all interconnected in different ways)

4. as individual we exist as the subconscious, conscious and higher self

5. the subconscious is programmed by our lifes experiences to survive (this can be unprogrammed) not all of the instincts of the subconscious are healthy though eg running away from problems to avoid them

6. the conscious mind is the you bit thats thinking now

7. the higher self is the part that communicates with the rest of the collective and regulates things like making your nails grow.

8. you can draw events into your life to help you grow throught your higher self

9. the conscious mind goes through lots of different thoughts so you have to make it very clear to the higher self what you want, also some of the subconsciouses learnt behaviour are contradictory to growth and self sabotage growth the maintain a feeling of safety even if its not a happy safety

10. the collective responds in a kind of survial of the fitest kind of way so if u want something really bad (and dont have conflicting learnt things in your subconscious) it will bring events into your life "coincidences"

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1109317272)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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DoktorSkell
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia

Total posts: 475
Posted:

You do indeed have some great studies to prove your point ben.

I just love the calm you bring to the storm that is HoP.
By that i mean i agree totally with your view on the "hotties" thread.

This is nonsense that we just dont need. Good intelligent conversation is welcome i say.

By all means good luck in your quest my friend. By what i have seen you have mastered quite a few arts and this would be an interesting one to persue, Just dont burn your feet too bad.

Doktor Out


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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Elemental666
GOLD Member since Feb 2005

member
Location: Bville, OK, USA

Total posts: 45
Posted:I think your definitions of Conscious, Unconscious and higher Self are a little askew, look deeper. The higher self guide the conscious and unconscious. While this guidance is sometime tangable to the otehr two is is not unbreakable. The unconscious does all the automatic maintenance of the self, while the conscious draws its insticts from the unconsious. For example, at an early age I developed a measurable negative response to physical confrontation. I was a small, shy and intellegent child and the big dumb bullies loved me for this. I did stand up for myself only to find my self physically ill the next day. To me this is the Higher Self telling my unconscious that physical confrontation never sovles anything and evoking a tru physical response. Later my conscious was able to recognize this connection and I began to stand up for myself in different ways. For example, those same bullies are working menial physical labor jobs because they were more concerne with cool than school, while I am now debt free and gainfully employeed in the tech industry. I work in an airconditioned office, make decent money and don't have any stress to bring home with me at the end ofthe day. The bully is eye deep in debt, doesn't know how his check is going to cover his expenses and worried about the future of his family. In this example the higher self guided my unconscious to mold my conscious self into working out my confrontation in a more productive way.

Just an observation from one who has trancended the menial blah blah phooey of the material world.

-El


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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:I totally believe in mind over matter.. I'm not going to get into my beliefs as I don't have time as I'm at work..



You go Ben - streach the boundaries.. pull small minded-ness out from under the blankets and challenge it. I really enjoy your posts..



My father taught me that anything is possible, only if you put your mind to it.. smile and I will always live by that..

EDITED_BY: Stix* (1109243944)


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Elemental666

The unconscious does all the automatic maintenance of the self, while the conscious draws its insticts from the unconsious.




i disagree, i think that when we act on instinct we drop into a lower level of consciousness. the reason that i say that is we are reacting to our environment to survive rather than choosing how to respond to our environment. i think that when we are fully conscious we are able to rationally experience and choose how to respond to our world.

Written by: Elemental666

For example, at an early age I developed a measurable negative response to physical confrontation. I was a small, shy and intellegent child and the big dumb bullies loved me for this. I did stand up for myself only to find my self physically ill the next day.
To me this is the Higher Self telling my unconscious that physical confrontation never sovles anything and evoking a tru physical response.




i would suggest instead that it is the bodys survial mechanism for coping in response to the stress of the experience and generating a negative responce to the experience to encourage you to avoid such a position again

Written by: Elemental666

while I am now debt free and gainfully employeed in the tech industry. I work in an airconditioned office, make decent money and don't have any stress to bring home with me at the end ofthe day.


In this example the higher self guided my unconscious to mold my conscious self into working out my confrontation in a more productive way




i would suggest that this is your conscious self having communicated clearly with your higher self what you wanted in life and it drawing the events into your life to have achieved this rather than the job etc arising to work out your confrontation.

would you care to elaborate on

Written by: Elemental666

I think your definitions of Conscious, Unconscious and higher Self are a little askew




doktor im far from master any art ive only taken the first steps on a very very long journey but its all about the journeys the fun bit smile

stix im glad u enjoy my posts smile hope you get more time to put some thoughts down later

about to slightly edit the first post to add a suspend belief and disbelief phrase smile


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men


1. all human knowledge is based on observations which carries with it the possibility of human errors and assumptions

2. human perception is a limited range of all the information (ie infrared and ultraviolet light) that exists

3. the commonly accepted truth was once that the world was flat however this does not make it true

4. concepts are conveyed through language, language is based on an individuals life experiences as such meanings of words can vary from person to person





Not trying to nitpick, but these are contraversial in themselves

1. Argues against any kind of a priori or intrinsic, existential or sub-egoistic knowledge, which many would disagree with

2. Infrared and ultraviolet light isn't information, but after the process of perception it becomes noema, which is kind of mental inromation.. the noetic activity of the brain creates the noematic element (ie thought processes -> a thought/information)

3. Damn straight

4. Some fundamental concepts cannot be transcribed into language, which I know doesn't mean much in terms of an internet message-board discussion, but nevertheless very important phenomenal elements cannot be described in words (ie The smell of a rose, the look of the colour red, the feel of feathers on your toes)

*butts out*


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:ben........wonderfully worded opening post, well thought out, and extremely thought provoking, ill need to read over it a few times, but i just wanted to compliment you on the way you present your self......wonderfull

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

7. the higher self is the part that communicates with the rest of the collective and regulates things like making your nails grow.




ok i think this is the only part i do not agree on.......

i see the "higher self" as the part of exsistance that experiances life threw us, the way we experiance work threw our tools......yes i know that we do work with out tools, so let me explain

when you use a hammer to hit a nail, you feel the thud of the hammers head hiting the nail............our "higher sefl" experiances life in the same way, indirectly..........while yes you are the one making the hammer work, you are not directly feeling the work, you are feeling the repercussion of your actions

thats how our "higher sefl" learns and experiances life, indirectly threw our actions, and in turn it is affected as such. any positive or negative actions are imprinted on that "higher self." not as strong as they are on our consious self, so the affects are not as harsh, but over time can build up........hope that makes sense to you, it did in my mind


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:please nit pick away its a great way of bringing out different understandings of conceptual differences and clarifying smile

Written by: nearly_all_gone

1. Argues against any kind of a priori or intrinsic, existential or sub-egoistic knowledge, which many would disagree with




its not ment to say that all knowledge is wrong its ment to convey the idea that just because something has been shown experimentally doesnt mean that it makes it an unquestionable trueth

Written by: nearly_all_gone

2. Infrared and ultraviolet light isn't information, but after the process of perception it becomes noema, which is kind of mental inromation.. the moetic activity of the brain creates the noematic element (ie thought processes -> a thought/information)




if light isnt information (albeit in a different form from the way in which its used in the brain) then what is it?

ive not heard the word moetic before and couldnt find it in the dictionary/google search didnt show an obvious meaning can you please define it for me

Written by: nearly_all_gone

4. Some fundamental concepts cannot be transcribed into language, which I know doesn't mean much in terms of an internet message-board discussion, but nevertheless very important phenomenal elements cannot be described in words (ie The smell of a rose, the look of the colour red, the feel of feathers on your toes)
*butts out*




this is something that i partially disagree with, i think that if you are conveying a concept to someone with similar set of physical inputs (ie isnt colour blind, deaf, dumb, etc) language can be used to convey the concept. so long as you both share a common experience base (not necessarily completely the same but overlapping in portions)

for example the colour red could be described as monochromatic light with a frequency of approximately 700 nm being projected onto a white screen, while this may not mean something to the person recieving the description it gives them enough information to be able to go and find out the what this colour red is. as for the smell of a rose i could try and describe it and someone may be able to correctly interpret my description it just depends on how much commonality in experience we share, if we dont have a broad knowledge base in smell it would be very hard however to a botenist i think it wouldnt be such a hard task

i think that as along as you have atleast two common senses its possible to communicate ideas via text. i think it would be possible for a robot with the same senses as a human raised like a child with suitable software to be able to learn all the same concepts as a human by relating different levels of corresponding stimulus to one and other. to do so sucessfully may require a better understanding of the mapping of the brain and how it processes the information but when you get down to it all the information that goes into the brain comes in as electrical impluses with different patterns corresponding to the smell of a rose or the smell of a lemon. different parts of language are linked to these electrical patterns so i think it can all be conveyed its just very hard with the state of existence we are in now but not impossible


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

its not ment to say that all knowledge is wrong its ment to convey the idea that just because something has been shown experimentally doesnt mean that it makes it an unquestionable trueth


So what you're arguing against here is induction, ie if such-and-such happens 10 times out of 10, this doesn't mean it will happen the 11th time. But this doesn't mean that all human knowledge is based on observation, which is the point I was making. I don't have knowledge of how to open my eyes based on observation, but I do have it - it is beneath the egoistic level, beneath the conscious.
Written by: ben-ja-men

if light isnt information (albeit in a different form from the way in which its used in the brain) then what is it?



I don't know anything about physics but a stream of photons or something like that.. it's a physical thing, it's not like an "idea" which is being transmitted around and we're recieving. If it were purely information then this is what you'd be commited to saying.
Written by: ben-ja-men

ive not heard the word moetic before and couldnt find it in the dictionary/google search didnt show an obvious meaning can you please define it for me



Spelling mistake redface sorry, noetic. Noetic = ajective of the element of thought which is the process of thinking, as opposed to noematic = that which is thought.
Written by: ben-ja-men

this is something that i partially disagree with, i think that if you are conveying a concept to someone with similar set of physical inputs (ie isnt colour blind, deaf, dumb, etc) language can be used to convey the concept. so long as you both share a common experience base (not necessarily completely the same but overlapping in portions)

for example the colour red could be described as monochromatic light with a frequency of approximately 700 nm being projected onto a white screen, while this may not mean something to the person recieving the description it gives them enough information to be able to go and find out the what this colour red is. as for the smell of a rose i could try and describe it and someone may be able to correctly interpret my description it just depends on how much commonality in experience we share, if we dont have a broad knowledge base in smell it would be very hard however to a botenist i think it wouldnt be such a hard task

i think that as along as you have atleast two common senses its possible to communicate ideas via text. i think it would be possible for a robot with the same senses as a human raised like a child with suitable software to be able to learn all the same concepts as a human by relating different levels of corresponding stimulus to one and other. to do so sucessfully may require a better understanding of the mapping of the brain and how it processes the information but when you get down to it all the information that goes into the brain comes in as electrical impluses with different patterns corresponding to the smell of a rose or the smell of a lemon. different parts of language are linked to these electrical patterns so i think it can all be conveyed its just very hard with the state of existence we are in now but not impossible


But here you're relying on a physicalist account of colour, which you were arguing against before. To quote Jackson (in his essay 'epiphenomenal qualia'):
There is nothing which you could speak which could capture the smell of a rose. Therefore physicalism is false.

YES - if people have the same fundamental experience-base, then you can have a dialogue about a similar thing, but it's still highly subjective. Some people probably hate the smell of roses - others love them. Smell as sensory stimulus has different effects on different people.

Also, if you say "red" then it's unlikely that I'll just think of the colour red. It's not something you can abstract - you might think of red on a white background, a red ball, a red car, etc etc - you can't pinpoint the fundamental "red" seperate from any concept of perception ie a red thing, as opposed to "a red". That doesn't exist and we cannot conceive of it.

Also, there is something about the experience of red which cannot be described in any means other than experiencing it - the EXPERENTIAL aspect of red. I'm going to put a chunk of the essay I just wrote about this here, hope you don't mind (doi't really want to have to write it all out again)

"Mary, a scientist who has learnt everything physical about colour, but has lived her entire life in a monochrome environment. She has experience of only two colours, and the shades between them. If Mary was to learn every single physical fact about colour, refraction, wavelengths of light, and other peoples descriptions of how it feels to have this colour, does it then follow that she knows everything there is to know about colour? One could ask her to describe redness. Whilst she could describe it in the language of Physics, could she every have a mental image of the colour? What if she was then put into the real world, and personally experienced other colours for the first time. It seems clear that she would gain more knowledge of colour something new from this excursion into the real world than she already knew namely the experience of colours. This example is perfectly plausible; we could keep Mary in a two-tone world from birth, teach her everything physical about colour and then send her into the world She would have this experience of something she had not had before. If one was to ask her to describe red, whilst she may still describe it in terms of physics, she would have a mental representation of red, which is an accurate representation of red as it is perceived, something the language of physics can never describe.
This is an intuitive response to the situation, which acknowledges the important phenomenal element of colour the physicalist account does not the epiphenomenal element of perception known as qualia. Qualia are the qualitative elements of mental states, the feeling of having a feeling the something Mary gains from direct experience of colour. Jackson claims that there is a certain quale attached to the experience of redness. Physicalism does not allow for qualia, instead arguing that what we might describe as qualia are in fact simple mental representations of the physical objects or properties they represent"

This is really hard to explain without getting massively in-depth, but basically, there are many different theories of colour (which relate to many or all of the secondary qualities) and you can't reach a definite conclusion.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish

i see the "higher self" as the part of exsistance that experiances life threw us, the way we experiance work threw our tools




i think our difference in view comes through where the intension comes from, i think that when i want to draw something into my life either my subconscious or conscious tells my higher self that this is what i want, the higher self will then basically communicate that to everyone else and that desire will be taken on by other peoples higher selves who do not have conflicting desires to be fufilled/are able to help fufill that desire. so the intension comes from the conscious mind or subconscious.

in the example of using the tools your higher self (being the person with the hammer) has the intention to hit the nail (unless your hammer is calling out to you which it might if your itching to hit something but once again that desire comes from the person)

Written by: Fryed Fish

thats how our "higher sefl" learns and experiances life, indirectly threw our actions, and in turn it is affected as such. any positive or negative actions are imprinted on that "higher self." not as strong as they are on our consious self, so the affects are not as harsh, but over time can build up



i dont think that the higher self has a need to learn or experience life as its role is to bring about the experiences in life that the conscious mind has. i think that regardless of how much positive or negative action build up the higher self is always able to bring events into your life if you communicate that desire to it, how easy or hard this is will depend on what has been programmed into the subconscious


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Gnarly Cranium
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco, USA

Total posts: 186
Posted:........Wow. I just can't help but run into this kind of information and speculation wherever the heck I go. I should really stop being surprised!



I have been dealing with these types of ideas for several years now. The problem is, I'm in a very unpleasant point in my life, and I keep drawing BAD things to myself, which makes me feel like censored, which in turn would seem to be drawing MORE bad things... which means it's all my own damn fault, which makes me feel even more like censored. Really this whole theory should be encouraging and I ought to be able to CHANGE the cycle but so far I haven't been having too much luck at feeling anything but like I'm a worthless failure in all ways. Urrrgghhhk. frown So, that's the catch-22 of the system.



On the one hand personal responsibility and subconscious power seems really great... on the other, you have to wonder, does this mean children with terrible diseases really chose to go through that? How about war and famine and all that other horrible stuff? Does anyone deserve this crap?



Also from what I've been exposed to.... reality is an agreed-upon thing... so, back when we thought the world was flat, for all intents and purposes, maybe it really WAS.





Two REALLY good sources of brain-cramping food-for-thought along these lines... when they're out on video finally, anyway:



I Heart Huckabees



What the #$*! Do We Know?




Huckabees is pretty light, fast-moving and funny. What the #$*! Do We Know? on the other hand is one that has some viewers clutching at their skulls and possibly putting their head between their knees within 20 minutes, others going 'wow cooool!!' and others saying 'unk? wha? that's dumb!'. It's pretty out there. It may still be showing in some areas.







And..... if you really wanna take a peek down ye olde Rabbit Hole..... the Dadroff texts have a page now.

EDITED_BY: Gnarly Cranium (1109257815)


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:ok question for you ben...........what part do you believe carries on after death, if any part at all?

i believe its the higher self, thats why the negaticeor positive impressions ae left on it. once we die that higher sefl takes whati t has learned threw our consious self and, lack of a better term here, recycles that knoledge to be used in the next life, not nesacerily my nest life, but the next life that get created........


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone

But this doesn't mean that all human knowledge is based on observation, which is the point I was making. I don't have knowledge of how to open my eyes based on observation, but I do have it - it is beneath the egoistic level, beneath the conscious.




i could have worded my initial statement better, something like all scientic human knowledge. i agree that there is definately inate knowledge trasmitted from one generation to the next

Written by: nearly_all_gone

I don't know anything about physics but a stream of photons or something like that.. it's a physical thing, it's not like an "idea" which is being transmitted around and we're recieving.




i disagree in that the "idea" being transmitted around is the minds perception of the neuron states, the neuron states are just the moving of information from one place to another, its the perception of them that brings meaning to them. for all you know the electrons in the wall behind you could be vibrating in such a way that the information they convey is that of running the windows 95 (heaven forbid) opperating system, however just because we are unable to percieve it doesnt mean that its not so.

Written by: nearly_all_gone

But here you're relying on a physicalist account of colour, which you were arguing against before.



i wasnt argueing against it so much as saying that the results are not necessarily true, in that possibly all the factors that affect the experiment are not taken into account and while they are consistent for the experiment they are not necessarily in the rest of the world (different lighting conditions, slight variation in gravity due to different altitude) which may or may not have a significant effect on the results, eg if i took that the equation for the force of gravity was f=ma and that acceleration due to gravity could always be approximated as 9.8 then using this equation in a situation on the moon would cause problems

Written by: nearly_all_gone

Also, if you say "red" then it's unlikely that I'll just think of the colour red. It's not something you can abstract - you might think of red on a white background, a red ball, a red car, etc etc - you can't pinpoint the fundamental "red" seperate from any concept of perception ie a red thing, as opposed to "a red". That doesn't exist and we cannot conceive of it.



you could use that arguement for anything, if i say home of poi, you might think of the main page, the first time you visited hop, the last time you visited hop, new zealand. its just a label and with all lables has lots of associations

Written by: nearly_all_gone

does it then follow that she knows everything there is to know about colour?




i take it when u say a monochrome environment you mean a greyscale view of the world. i would say no she doesnt know everything there is to know about the colour red because she cant distinguish it from a physical inspection of any other colour that has an equivalent greyscale value but different hue, saturation and luminance values hence cant make an emotive link to the colour

Written by: nearly_all_gone

Qualia are the qualitative elements of mental states, the feeling of having a feeling the something Mary gains from direct experience of colour. Jackson claims that there is a certain quale attached to the experience of redness. Physicalism does not allow for qualia, instead arguing that what we might describe as qualia are in fact simple mental representations of the physical objects or properties they represent



i disagree, qualia are the links that the brain forms between the different sensory inputs based on past experience and the current emotional state and are simply specific to the indiviual.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Gnarly Cranium


Wow. I just can't help but run into this kind of information and speculation wherever the heck I go.



I'm in a very unpleasant point in my life, and I keep drawing BAD things to myself







so it would seem that you have a repeating pattern of bad stuff and being presented with the concepts of change. i dont know your situation so its hard to say anything specific, i found that absolute happyness by michael rowland was the best read ive ever had it provided what i found to be very useful exercises for clearing negative patterns that exist in the subconscious. if it doesnt work for you (ive yet to meet anyone thats read it and not had it work but if it doesnt) try something else there are many ways to get to that happy place you want to go, find a path that works for you, keep trying new things until u find something that works



Written by: Gnarly Cranium


you have to wonder, does this mean children with terrible diseases really chose to go through that? How about war and famine and all that other horrible stuff? Does anyone deserve this crap?







i dont think that they consciously choose to however i think its quite possible that they draw those events into their life inorder for them to learn some lesson and grow. i dont think the universe offers up what u ask it for, if u dont consciously choose (*NOTE* im not saying this is easy or quick or simply a matter of thinking id like this as you think alot of different conflicting things all the time you have to make it very clear to your higher self what you want, see book for long explanation of how) to ask if for anything then your subconscious fills in the blanks whether they be positive or negative



Written by: Gnarly Cranium


Also from what I've been exposed to.... reality is an agreed-upon thing... so, back when we thought the world was flat, for all intents and purposes, maybe it really WAS.







i just wrote loads in reply to the earth being flat but it was getting way to complex with ifs and buts so ill say yep if the universe is adaptive and is able to fiddle the bits that arnt consciously observed to adapt reality based on the collective human experience then i think its quite possible that the earth was flat before it was round.



Written by: Fryed Fish


ok question for you ben...........what part do you believe carries on after death, if any part at all?







at the moment i think that death is comparable to if u had been born blind gone through life never seeing then one day opening your eyes and to continue being in a completely new perception of reality. As far as subconscious, conscious and higher self continueing i think your higher self .... hehe your opening a can of worms here



my current thoughts on the working of time



1. time begins at the point which is first distinguishable from the state that occured before it, before that time does not exist

2. sometime after the beginning of time the big bang occured

3. time after the big bang can be thought of as a multi faced pyramid

4. each step on the pyramid is an instant in time

5. with each instant in time new faces are created on the pyramid

6. each face on the pyramid corresponds to a different version of reality

7. as every living entity in existence exists we are all co choosing which face on the step gets experienced.

8. when we are living whatever it is that makes us us exists in a physical form and by being part of the collective that chooses which version of reality is co experienced is disconnected from viewing the all the previous steps beyond the physical forms experience

9. when we die we become disconnected from our physical form and detacted from the pryomid until we choose the next vessle with which to experience life



points that im very unsure on



1. if the existence expands forever and the pyromid keeps getting bigger and bigger or if it all collapses in on itself and restarts somewhere different.

2. how exactly existence gets kickstarted from nothingness to something

3. what the point to it all is apart from growth, as there seems to be some underlying architecture to all the rules

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1109262968)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:with the exception of that one point i brought up (the hammer thing) your views and mine are extremely close......i think at this point i shall bow out and simply keep reading the posts........

<bows with much respect to ben>

great topic meditate


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:Written by:
to believe one thing is to disbelieve the opposite, this limits your perception of the world, so please suspend your beleifs and disbeleifs to entertain the ideas that unfold within this thread


i dont mean to shoot you down in the first paragraph but not everything in the universe is an 'if and only if' statement.

Written by:
2. human perception is a limited range of all the information (ie infrared and ultraviolet light) that exists


this is great. i would like to add on to a couple though just to further support what your saying...human perception can be described based on a density curve. everything under the curve is what we are able to percieve. the shape of the curve is the focus. if it is skinny the the focus is only on 1 standard deveation from the mean (the percieved world). if the curve is flatter than more information from the tails are put into your consiosness. yes visable light is a good way to describe this but also it can be used to describe thoughts. if you only think about the demintions your in then you only using that skinny curve and seeing less of the full picture. the usufull bit of this, however, is that both curves and all curves are legitamate. that is we are focused and unfocused, we are a single thing and part of whole at the same time.

Written by:
the conscious mind goes through lots of different thoughts so you have to make it very clear to the higher self what you want


meditate

Written by:
So what you're arguing against here is induction, ie if such-and-such happens 10 times out of 10, this doesn't mean it will happen the 11th time. But this doesn't mean that all human knowledge is based on observation, which is the point I was making. I don't have knowledge of how to open my eyes based on observation, but I do have it - it is beneath the egoistic level, beneath the conscious


because you cannot consciously feel another being you can only learn through observation. BUT this is not the truth because of previously learned things. therefore truth can only be found in observation and self examination. your the only one who knows yourself.

Written by:
if light isnt information (albeit in a different form from the way in which its used in the brain) then what is it?


im gonna have to say that energy is the only form of information. without energy there would be nothing to propel us through time and in turn allow us to think.

Written by:
what part do you believe carries on after death

...
Written by:
time begins at the point which is first distinguishable from the state that occured before it, before that time does not exist


if there are two universes, a subjective one and objective one, and the objective universe teaches the subjective one then the objective universe=the subjective universe based on the subjects experiance.
if infinity is added to one side of the equation (objective universe) the it must be added to the other in order for them to be equal. therefore the subjective universe must be infinate. take your own conclusions from that.

4-7 is great.

ok ive been trying to get this perfect but whatever ill just say it now.

V=L/t
where V=velocity of life
L=life defined by thougts.
t=time defined by a subjective understanding of time.
because time is a subjective understanding it only effects the subject and therefore this equation can also describe the death death of the subject or the point where time=zero. when a number is divided by 0 the result is undefined. (put it in your calculator). no matter how many thoughts the velocity is still undefined. so death is only thoughts without movement. i would call this your own impact on the objective world without subective development.
i can write a book on conclusions drawn from this equation but i wont waste your time.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:btw awesome thread ben. i skipped a class to read all the crap and reply. but whatever i havnt finished my paper for it anyway. ubblol

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Suppose I read an article about the science of firewalking,and the article used concepts like the specific heat capacity of a persons foot and the actual burning coals. If the article went on to explain about the insulating qualities of a thin layer of ash resulting when a foot meets a hot coal and concluded that anybody can walk on hot coals and that mind over matter has nothing to do with it.

Do you figure my belief in that article being truth would allow me to go out and fire walk,,,right now, without taking any course? Or is the ability to walk on fire just a matter of simple physics?

If it is a mind over matter thing, do you think the concept could be extended to allow someone to walk on something like hot steel,,,,or a river of hot lava?


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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:if you can convinse yourself that the coals are not going to hurt...then they arnt. it doesnt matter how you convinse yourself, weather it be science or the supernatural if you believe it it is true. subjectivly of course.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men
my current thoughts on the working of time

1. time begins at the point which is first distinguishable from the state that occured before it, before that time does not exist
2. sometime after the beginning of time the big bang occured


Actually time started with the Big Bang. You can't think of time as separate from space and so before there was a Universe there was no such thing as time.

Written by: ben-ja-men
3. time after the big bang can be thought of as a multi faced pyramid
4. each step on the pyramid is an instant in time
5. with each instant in time new faces are created on the pyramid
6. each face on the pyramid corresponds to a different version of reality
7. as every living entity in existence exists we are all co choosing which face on the step gets experienced.
8. when we are living whatever it is that makes us us exists in a physical form and by being part of the collective that chooses which version of reality is co experienced is disconnected from viewing the all the previous steps beyond the physical forms experience


Sounds vaguely like the many-worlds theory of quantum mechanics. Not sure why you've decided on a pyramid though - any other reason than it's association with mysticism?

Written by: ben-ja-men
points that im very unsure on

1. if the existence expands forever and the pyromid keeps getting bigger and bigger or if it all collapses in on itself and restarts somewhere different.


Well currently the Universe seems like it will expand forever.

Written by: ben-ja-men
2. how exactly existence gets kickstarted from nothingness to something.


Pure random chance seems to be a likely explaination smile

Written by: ben-ja-men
3. what the point to it all is apart from growth, as there seems to be some underlying architecture to all the rules


Why should there be a point? I don't think there is any point to it, and that's what makes it so amazing to me! That all of the Universe can have come to be as we see it today with no plan, no guiding hand, just a set of laws intricately balanced to produce all of this through chance!


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Burning Brain

to believe one thing is to disbelieve the opposite, this limits your perception of the world, so please suspend your beleifs and disbeleifs to entertain the ideas that unfold within this thread


i dont mean to shoot you down in the first paragraph but not everything in the universe is an 'if and only if' statement.




can you please provide an example of where believeing one thing also allows you to believe the opposite without it contradicting the first belief

Written by: Burning Brain

im gonna have to say that energy is the only form of information. without energy there would be nothing to propel us through time and in turn allow us to think.




can you please expand on that, i would think that directions on how to get to the library is information but its not energy

Written by: Burning Brain

if there are two universes, a subjective one and objective one, and the objective universe teaches the subjective one then the objective universe=the subjective universe based on the subjects experiance.
if infinity is added to one side of the equation (objective universe) the it must be added to the other in order for them to be equal. therefore the subjective universe must be infinate. take your own conclusions from that.




how does the objective universe teach the subjective one?

problem with adding infinity to an equation is that at the extremely small and extremely large the normal rules dont apply

its like saying

x=0.9999999 recuring
10x=9.9999999 (multiply both sides by 10)
9x=9 (take x from each side)
x=1 (divide both sides by 9)

on a number line 0.99999 recuring is next to 1 but 0.9999 recuring =1 therefore all numbers next to each other are the same number therefore there is only one number

Written by: Burning Brain

V=L/t
where V=velocity of life
L=life defined by thougts.
t=time defined by a subjective understanding of time.




i dont understand what u mean by velocity of life can u please elaborate


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: spiralx

Actually time started with the Big Bang. You can't think of time as separate from space and so before there was a Universe there was no such thing as time.




i have a little trouble understanding what caused the big bang to take place, if time began at the big bang then surely all the events prior to the big bang are identical hence no time, which to me seems like an unbalenced equation in that all this stuff was just always there, if that was the case and its all unchanging then why would it suddenly go bang, for it must be stable if its not changing and has always been there, possibly "god" set it off, but then u have two distinguishable events gods intervention and per gods intervention but then how did god get involved where did he come from etc etc


Written by: spiralx

Sounds vaguely like the many-worlds theory of quantum mechanics. Not sure why you've decided on a pyramid though - any other reason than it's association with mysticism?




its easy to visualise with the steps and faces

Written by: spiralx

Well currently the Universe seems like it will expand forever.




thats one hell of a calculation to do taking into account all the different diminishing graviational effects and inertia of all the bodys in existence?

Written by: spiralx

Written by: ben-ja-men
2. how exactly existence gets kickstarted from nothingness to something.


Pure random chance seems to be a likely explaination smile




thats alot of chance for all that matter to all randomly appear in the same vicinity .... maybe when time doesnt exist its not chance at all, or does time exist in segments when stuff exists and all annuls until a big bang sized mass appears .... mmmm i like this idea smile

Written by: spiralx

That all of the Universe can have come to be as we see it today with no plan, no guiding hand, just a set of laws intricately balanced to produce all of this through chance!



the no plan and no guiding hand i like, but where do the laws come from?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: spiralx

Sounds vaguely like the many-worlds theory of quantum mechanics. Not sure why you've decided on a pyramid though - any other reason than it's association with mysticism?



yeah, i was wondering that too? when there are so many models out there, why a pyramid?



Written by: Burning Brain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


to believe one thing is to disbelieve the opposite, this limits your perception of the world, so please suspend your beleifs and disbeleifs to entertain the ideas that unfold within this thread


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i dont mean to shoot you down in the first paragraph but not everything in the universe is an 'if and only if' statement.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



can you please provide an example of where believeing one thing also allows you to believe the opposite without it contradicting the first belief


i know this wasn't my question but....

maybe in an absolute sense this isn't possible, but on the other hand i have beliefs that i would consider to be (in working practice) right, i believe them. but onthe other hand i am open the the possibility that i am wrong, even though i behave according to my original belief, that doesn't mean i don't consider the other as well. does that make any sense?


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:th if and only if thing comes from the universe being created from my own subjective mind and the language i associate with it. while the function of things can be defined by the belief that it is only one thing, what i call it can be different than what others call it and therefore is not just what i call it.
objectivly it is one thing. subjectivly it is an infinate amount of things because there are an infinate amount of subjects.


Written by:
would think that directions on how to get to the library is information but its not energy


the thing (understood directions) is not energy, but the act of explaining where the library is is energy in the form of sound. its pretty much from what perspective you are percieving. everything you see is an action weather it be light bouncing off a mirror or a balls bouncing off the ground. its always an action. once you understand it it becomes part of you and a memory and therefore a thing (idea).


the objective universe is simply everything a subject interacts with. everything that is not the subject. if a subject percieves an object it learns from it...

*=infinity

8=8
8+*=8?
8+*=*+8 (looks like a face biggrin)
but my point was that if a subject percieves something it imedeatly become apart of them.


if i am simply a subject that perieves then i am what i think. learning takes time. so the V is just derived from the two things that i know must exist. i put it in a L/t form because it seems to fit with what i believe. when L=0 then V=0 (before birth) when t=0 V=undefined.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

i have a little trouble understanding what caused the big bang to take place, if time began at the big bang then surely all the events prior to the big bang are identical hence no time, which to me seems like an unbalenced equation in that all this stuff was just always there, if that was the case and its all unchanging then why would it suddenly go bang, for it must be stable if its not changing and has always been there, possibly "god" set it off, but then u have two distinguishable events gods intervention and per gods intervention but then how did god get involved where did he come from etc etc



Everyone has that problem, but at the same time space and time are inseperably linked. Before there was space there could be no time as time would be meaningless - what is time if not the sequece of changes in space? So time could not have existed in any meaningful way (in any relevant or non-trivial way) before space.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: stout

Suppose I read an article about the science of firewalking,and the article used concepts like the specific heat capacity of a persons foot and the actual burning coals. If the article went on to explain about the insulating qualities of a thin layer of ash resulting when a foot meets a hot coal and concluded that anybody can walk on hot coals and that mind over matter has nothing to do with it.




i guess that would depend on if u truely really believed that the insulation properties of the ash would protect your feet

Written by: Burning Brain

if i am simply a subject that perieves then i am what i think. learning takes time. so the V is just derived from the two things that i know must exist. i put it in a L/t form because it seems to fit with what i believe. when L=0 then V=0 (before birth) when t=0 V=undefined.




how is t measured? i would have thought at death t=time spent alive

Written by: Burning Brain

i dont mean to shoot you down in the first paragraph but not everything in the universe is an 'if and only if' statement

subjectivly it is an infinate amount of things because there are an infinate amount of subjects.




this is true for each individual though there is only one perception of the world being the one they currently have

Written by: Burning Brain

im gonna have to say that energy is the only form of information. without energy there would be nothing to propel us through time and in turn allow us to think

the thing (understood directions) is not energy, but the act of explaining where the library is is energy in the form of sound. its pretty much from what perspective you are percieving. everything you see is an action weather it be light bouncing off a mirror or a balls bouncing off the ground. its always an action. once you understand it it becomes part of you and a memory and therefore a thing (idea).




so then surely energy is the means of transmitting information rather than the information itself

Written by: Tao Star

maybe in an absolute sense this isn't possible, but on the other hand i have beliefs that i would consider to be (in working practice) right, i believe them. but onthe other hand i am open the the possibility that i am wrong, even though i behave according to my original belief, that doesn't mean i don't consider the other as well. does that make any sense?



believing somehting and being open to other ideas doesnt mean you believe the opposite it just means u consider it, if u find it to be true then u disbelieve the other, if u then find they are both true even though they contradict each other then they are only partial half truths which u dont believe as u know they arnt the absolutly correct

Written by: nearly_all_gone

Everyone has that problem, but at the same time space and time are inseperably linked. Before there was space there could be no time as time would be meaningless - what is time if not the sequece of changes in space? So time could not have existed in any meaningful way (in any relevant or non-trivial way) before space.



surely a point mass exists so it occupies space so by having a single point space is effectly defined as all the mass being at one point and everything else having nothing, kind of like the origin on a blank graph


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:But if only a single point is occupied by matter in a non-changing state, time is meaningless

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:all the matter in the universe somehow has to arrive at that singular point which requires events leading up to so it wouldnt be non changing unless it was stable which means it would go bang

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:I disagree. If it is a single point then there can be no change within it - if it is single and massively dense then it is stable. I don't propose to know what caused the big bang, but before it there is a singularity.. I think. And a singularity is singular and unchanging.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men
can you please expand on that, i would think that directions on how to get to the library is information but its not energy


Because ultimately it requires energy to store or process that information. And vice versa - you can think of energy as a certain type of information.

Written by: ben-ja-men
its like saying

x=0.9999999 recuring
10x=9.9999999 (multiply both sides by 10)
9x=9 (take x from each side)
x=1 (divide both sides by 9)

on a number line 0.99999 recuring is next to 1 but 0.9999 recuring =1 therefore all numbers next to each other are the same number therefore there is only one number


That's a bit of a logical leap isn't it? Just because 0.9 recurring is equal to 1 (and that's not even true in certain number systems mathmaticians have come up with) then it doesn't in any way imply that 0.9 recurring 8 is the same as 1.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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