Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Having just watched Bush's latest speech, I'm rather annoyed. He talks about our responsibility of 'speading freedom' to the rest of the world, seemingly, whether they want it or not.
He went on to say that he must reiterate his policy of 'you're either with us or against us.' This cavalier attitude seems reckless and arrogant.

This approach to world relations reminds me of something called 'manifest destiny.' When this country was comprised of just Blue States, we said we were destined to spread all across the continent to the pacific. We justified our national migration as being remanded by God. (Sound familiar yet?) So after doubling our girth with money paid to [gasp] France, we broke all our treaties to steal land from the Indians, killed 8-9 million more, herded the rest onto the worst land we could find, and before long, our flag popped up in Malibu.

Is there a single person out there who thinks spreading Democracy to the rest of the world is a good idea? redface


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Delete Topic

Wonder Monkey
Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 121
Posted:I share your anger and frustrations - and according to a recent poll, hatred of Bush has started to foster a dislike of the American populace.

One big draw back of a democracy is that you can only point the finger at yourself (as a nation) for your nations funk ups.

I dont think the US really has democracy - just elected dictatorships. I mean, I woudla thought alarm bells would ring when it was realised that only the uber rich can afford to run for office. The uber rich hardly got that way by looking after everyone else equally, and wouldnt have a clue about the real issues that affect the less well off in society. Yet people still think they will be excellent advocates for them? ubbloco

Cant be a good state of affairs to have a country run by lawyers and businessmen.

With such flaws in the system of democracy, no wonder the eastern world is wary of its imposition.

IN addition, I would severely question if we really have freedom at all. We are all slaves to the system.

Its also in opposition to what is really happening - people in the states losing freedoms..from teh pAtriots Act, through to anti-gay and anti-abortion rulings. It seems the country is sleepwalking into christian fundementalism (or charging eyes open really, as they must go along with everyone else to remain a faithful christian-american wink )

frown

Theres a saying that you cant bring democracy at the end of a bayonet, and I think that holds true when you look at the world past (vietnam) and present (Iraq).

Good to know we learn from history :rolleyes: mad


My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce

Delete

The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:yup me..........but what you have to understnad is the US does not have a true democracy, India does (the largest in the world if im not mistaken) the US has that damn electoral colledge thing, and that messes it all up.........let me stop before i go off on that..

but yes i would love to see a world were each couuntry could elect their leaders


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

Delete

Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:How does Bush get away with this? Are the majoirty of American people and journalists so blind or subdued? He's errected a huge mountain of crap in Washington and people ignore it because he tells them to. Why can't reporters ask difficult questions like they do here, where they're waiting to crucify politicians. I want a reporter to ask questions, here's one for example:

Mr Bush, you've made it your goal to spread freedom and democracy across the world and that people are either with, or against us. How does this fit in with the US governments political and financial support of President Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan? Why are you, as the President, standing shoulder to shoulder with a dictator that leads a regime where the UN has found torture to be "institutionalized, systematic, and rampant"?


Delete

Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:As the great Carlin has said, "If you have selfish, idiotic citizens, you're going to elect selfish, idiotic leaders. Garbage in, garbage out."

I know it's unrealistic, and unfair, but we should put some more restrictions on who can run for president. Perhaps we should ban the following candidates:

ubbidea Anyone who has ever made more than $30,000 a year.
ubbidea Anyone who has graduated from an ivy league college.
ubbidea Anyone who has ever lived or worked in the District of Columbia.
ubbidea Anyone related to someone already in public office.
ubbidea Anyone who HASN"T gotten oral sex of some kind during their life.

ubbidea And while we're at it, let's limit campaign donations to $10,000 per donor and make them totally anonymous.


If nothing else, it should make for some interesting TV... ubbrollsmile


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Delete

SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:I wish I knew, Dom.

There was a time when reporters would ask the hard questions, but I think 9/11 paralyzed a bunch of them.

All of a sudden, it was unpatriotic to talk badly about the president or his policies. Look at what happened to the Dixie Chicks.

Our Freedom of Speech went out the window on 9/11 to some extent.

People don't see it, but other freedoms are being eroded day after day.

The American people are losing patience over Iraq, finally. This should have happened when the President ever turned his eyes on Iraq after 9/11, but people wanted revenge, and Iraq looked like an easy target to many.

I had people at work tell me they were a threat to our national defense. When I asked why they said that, they pointed to conservative talk shows. Uh. Right.

There is a fairly good chunk of the population that would probably try to buy the Brooklyn Bridge if Bush, or any of his cohorts tried to sell it to them.

There was a "fairness in reporting" act that was thrown out some time ago...with that act tossed, we saw the formation of things like Fox News, and other biased "news" sources. These sources feed on people's fear, and we have one very scared nation. We don't do well with national threats. Look at our history during the Cold War...if someone labeled you as "Red," you were put on a black list for a long time.

I don't know what it would take for the people of my nation to open their eyes and start thinking for themselves instead of letting Fox News or the President, or some pastor tell them what to think.

I don't like the move to Christian fundamentalism I see...it scares me...threatens me, to be honest. I'm pretty much a second class citizen in my country...and I Don't see that changing any time soon. Not until there is another social revolution like the one of the 60's....

I'm going to stop now before I get on a real roll...that and I'm almost late for lunch!!


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

Delete

The Real Fryed Fish
God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1489
Posted:ok, lets get off the bush bashing, we all know hes incompetant, ignorant, and most likly the anti-christ..........lets get the root question here.................is spreading democrocy to the rest of the world a good idea?

ya know i hate bush as much as the next guy, because of his "war on terror" i have lost 2 friends, and the one that came home is severly censored up from what he saw......so i am not backing bush..........but so many times people put up a thread that mentions his name (and hes not even the topic) and it turns into yet ANOTHER ani-bush thread.........this is geting as bad as the "what music do you spin to" threads


You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

Delete

SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:OK, to the root of your question....it's a tough answer.

On the one hand, I think the population of a nation have to want freedom instead of having it thrust on them, but if they are too terrified to rise up, then will they ever have freedom?

I don't know that any one nation has the authority to force a new type of government on another nation. At the same time, I don't think nations should stand by and watch genocide go on without opposition.

How's that for a vague answer?


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

Delete

_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Dom... good questions.

Bear in mind that when Bush or his cohorts are asked these type of questions they more often than not either ignore the question or brush it off with a totally unrelated, unusable answer (I know this because it has happened to me with much less influential people).



Journalists who push such difficult questions quickly find they are no longer allowed to ask questions at press conferences (not physically opposed, of course, just 'overlooked'), and invites to press conferences and meetings tend to get 'lost in the post'.



The government need the media to peddle its propaganda as much as (or perhaps more) than the media need the government for page fillers.



Spitfire... lovely post. The whole issue of reporter's fear of seeming unpatriotic is very true. Again, it seems that journalists tend to be overlooked very quickly if they are seen to be unpatriotic in America (by the people, as well as the administration).



Freedom of speech and privacy went out the window with the Patriot Act. And this, in my opinion, was al-Qaeda's greatest victory.



America has been virtually destroyed by Bush's fearmongering.

I find it hard to imagine a time when that nation will ever be able to live without the fear of a terrorist attack - as was mentioned on the Power of Nightmares programme - politicians have realised the power of fear and will no doubt employ it to their advantage for decades to come.



The strange thing is, the people of Northern Ireland, Israel, Palestine, etc have been living under the fear of terrorist attack for decades... but (and I'm speaking from my own observations of the north here), we have never been subjected to the kindof fearmongering in our media and from our politicans as has been witnessed in America.



I'm going to answer the influence of the media question over in the news thread, where Vanize has made his views rather clear also ubblol


Getting to the other side smile

Delete

spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:You might want to say that Republicans have realized the power of fear. The democrats (at least in the presidential race) opted for different tactics because they felt strongly that the american population should not be reduced to a nation of fear.

Delete

_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Some would say that Michael Moore is also fearmongering. In a slightly more intelligent way.

Getting to the other side smile

Delete

spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:He's not a politician though, and you generalized them (politicians) in your statement above. His movies are rather enlightening though and meant to push the thinking power of the general public.

Delete

_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:I'm fairly sure the Democrats (and all politicans) have been involved in fearmongering in the UK and US since September 11.

It's just that the US Republicans have been more blatant (or stupid) about it.

Moore's movies are meant to be enlightening, and on a personal level, I enjoy watching them, but he is pushing people to think along his lines... exactly as the Republicans are doing, only in the opposite direction.

It's all propaganda.


Getting to the other side smile

Delete

Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:I absolutely agree that we live in a fearful nation. Bush tries to pass himself off as a 'war president' when in fact he is the 'fear president.' The biggest example are those stoopiud color-coded warnings. Every now and then they raise the 'Terror Alert,' just to remind us that we should still be afraid. They always proclaim that something will happen somewhere, sometime soon. The details are always vague, the basis is always unreliable, and the terror alert subsides with just as much ambiguity.

Bush has built up Iraq as a aggressive, undeniable threat. His administration has put the fear of terrorism into every Americans' heart. He used fear to erode our liberties and syphon our support for an unjust invasion.

Iraq was a nation that never attacked us, never threatened us. They certainly didn't invite us. By forcing a new system of government on Iraq, we will invite aggression where none existed before. We will create more terrorists than we can ever hope to defend against. We will be less safe than before. All because of our futile, expensive and arrogant 'War on Terror.'


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Delete

Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:when i was in sydney recently i was walking to a juggling meet when i looked down and saw waht i thought was a council stencil about drainage. then i looked again and couldn't agree more.

the stencil i was viewing was in yellow and intailed a picture of a blackhawk helicopter with soldiers sliding down ropes off it. the caption next to it read "democracy, we deliver"

that stencil pretty much sums up my beliefs on spreading democray around the world. no form of rule in the world is perfect as for ever good king there is a bad king, for every good dictator there is a bad dictator, for every good president there is a bad president. its not so much the type of rule that matters as much as the person ruling.

following this democracy is definatly not a form of freedom, its a form of rule. hence if you try to rule people you cant make them free therefore bush is full of [censored](sorry bout the bush bashing, its relevant)


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Delete

Wonder Monkey
Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 121
Posted:Written by: Mr Majestik

"democracy, we deliver"

its not so much the type of rule that matters as much as the person ruling.

following this democracy is definatly not a form of freedom, its a form of rule. hence if you try to rule people you cant make them free therefore bush is full of censored(sorry bout the bush bashing, its relevant)



It is very relevant when talking about the spread of democracy smile

As you says, its just another system of rule - the peope change but things still stay the same.

The danger of democarcy is that it breeds complacency, and abuse of the system generates apathy, until you have the situation like in teh US and UK where you dont even get 50% turnout. Well worth having then, that democracy.

Ah, but at least people have the choice to vote? BUT.. Who gives them their choices wink Is there really a choice or a matter of trying to choose the lesser of two evils?

The great things abotu combining democracy wioth capitalism is that you say to people that 'some of you are gonna be leaders, some of you are gonna be lead, you have the opportunity to chose which you want to do'

But really - is there a choice? Its the illusion of choice that I believe is the opiate of the masses for capitalism. The scales are tipped toward the benefit of the 'haves' versus the 'have nots' - until you address that societal problem, any form of rule will be used to benefit the already empowered. frown


My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce

Delete

_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Good points Wonder Monkey.

smile


Getting to the other side smile

Delete

Wonder Monkey
Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 121
Posted:Awww thankx Likewise smile

My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce

Delete

Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Spreading freedom, eh?

I think that the reason that the idea of spreading "democracy" and "freedom" is so easy to sell to many (but certainly not all) Westerners, is that they are under the illusion that it's what they currently enjoy in their own countries.

And it is, but only to an extent which they've been persuaded is reasonable. When you think of the freedom and democracy which has been sacrificed in the western world in order to prevent terrorism, for example, it falls short of what many people would consider reasonable, which is where fearmongering is particularly useful.

So it's frustrating to think that, despite "liberation", many countries still don't even see the basic standards of living we have, let alone the level of democracy and freedom, and probably won't for a long time, because it's being developed by the same people frown


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Delete

Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:I Think people should stop talking about what we have as being democracy. what we have now is a grand illusion, and is a far cry from the ideals that constitute real democracy.

What we have is the rich few ruling the masses of poor, as has been the way for eons. The only difference now is that some of the poor people actually believe that they have some influence over the ruling class and decision making processes. This has been shown through recent events to be an empty belief.

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:"What we have is the rich few ruling the masses of poor"

This is also my definition of democracy - as evidenced by every so-called democracy across the world. This ideological fantasy that the 'Coalition of the Willing' have thrust on Iraq is exactly this - in theory, without the human rights abuses of the previous administration!

(and is it really 'democracy' when roads and vehicular movement is forbidden in an effort to force people to the polls?! - incidentally, I am aware that this step is supposed to make the voting safer, however, a BBC reporter in Iraq yesterday suggested that some of those restrictions also seemed like a show of strength by the US - reminding the Iraqis who's in charge)

If we are going to support an ideological fantasy, why not support a socialist-based one?

Lol, give Communism a chance! rolleyes


Getting to the other side smile

Delete

Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:Can't help but agree with Josh. (not that that's a bad thing you understand wink)

It's all very well UK and US leaders spouting off about spreading freedom and democracy when both countries are holding prisoners without trial (a clear violation of those peoples freedom I would have said) and when in fact, neither country is actually a democracy.

A democracy, by definition is a country where power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves. I question the representative ability of both the Houses of Parliament and indeed, the Senate and the House of Representatives. Proportional representation would solve this, a little, but still I think the only way for democracy to exist is for a new system whereby people genuinely to have the power to rule themselves. And, yes, a socialist/pseudo-communist approach works really well in small communities, but it has yet to be proved a workable solution on a large scale.

As for me, I'm stumped, but whatever the solution, it won't come from the military. Unless they nuke everyone and the survivors form anarcho-syndicalist communes.

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

Delete

Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:small communities, that is where its at. small communities, as Mags said, are where things work. not sure what i'm trying to say with this but on a small scale democracy would work also, just when things get big problems seem to occur.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Delete

Wonder Monkey
Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 121
Posted:Unfortunately I think the very notion of 'community' is eroding - replaced by anaesthetised selfish conformity or soemthing. Eitehr way. it aint good frown

Im a big bundle of JOY!
Non-Https Image Link


My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [spreading freedom] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > Spreading Freedom [23 replies]
2. Forums > Newbie spreading independence day cheer! [8 replies]
3. Forums > Spreading the Joy!
4. Forums > Freedom Festival 2007
5. Forums > Ideas worth spreading [6 replies]

     Show more..