Forums > Technical Discussion > Ground Fire
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Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
Alright, let me first state that this post is going to contain some ideas that could be very dangerous and painful if you aren't careful and safe about them. I (and HoP in general) advise and insist you know all the risks asscociated with something before you do it, especially when using fire. Make sure you have all your safety equipment with you (especially fire blanket and fire extinguisher) when trying any of the following ideas...
Alright, that having been said (the first time at least, I have a feeling it will happen some more...) I'll get more to the point. I'm sure some/most of you have seen videos or performances where the twirller would do a low turn (or something to the effect) and brush the flaming poi across the ground and a pattern of fire (usually circle) would slowly light up around them.
A good example of this is in someone's video titled "Nick with Fire" (the first one) when at the start he does a low turn (I think that was it) and some small blue flames spread from under his feet.
I've done the twirlling in a small circle of fire a few times when filming for videos etc... and upon watching the film later concluded it looked pretty cool, especially when we cleared out a 'moat' in the snow for it, so it was all snowy out, with me spinning in a circle of fire built in the snow
It did get a bit warm in the middle of it (It was winter, I didn't mind
), but a pair of long pants solves that problem.
So ever since then I've been toying with the idea in my head...why not take it one step further and make a more elaborate pattern on the ground?
I can remember someone who proposed using kevlar cord to soak up the fuel and laying it out in patterns etc... so that the fuel wouldn't travel anywhere or soak into the ground (if using sand, like I usually do).
On the topic of fuel, I used a 1:3 mix of colemans:kero. needed the colemans to get it all to light up well, and the kero to give it a bit longer of a burn time.
I was thinking, perhaps one could get someone to film from overhead, or from higher ground, and you could make a somewhat larger pattern. It could be a very nice touch for any video. I know there are some performers who use vertical patterns of fire (built on fences, poles, supports etc...) so if you guys have any advice or remarks, it'd be much appreciated.
I was thinking, maybe a large pentagram (6 foot radius?), with someone spinning in the middle of it. I was planning on doing it in a baseball diamond by the homeplate so we could get a good aerial view (backstop) and the ground would be fire resistant (it's gravel)...
Other ideas I had were things like a celtic cross or some nifty celtic designs...
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I've got a few more months before the summer season, so I've got a while to toy with ideas still...
EDIT: Right, for some reason I called that video durb's twice with in 24 hours of each other...
EDITED_BY: ImmortalAngel (1105332088)
Alright, let me first state that this post is going to contain some ideas that could be very dangerous and painful if you aren't careful and safe about them. I (and HoP in general) advise and insist you know all the risks asscociated with something before you do it, especially when using fire. Make sure you have all your safety equipment with you (especially fire blanket and fire extinguisher) when trying any of the following ideas...
Alright, that having been said (the first time at least, I have a feeling it will happen some more...) I'll get more to the point. I'm sure some/most of you have seen videos or performances where the twirller would do a low turn (or something to the effect) and brush the flaming poi across the ground and a pattern of fire (usually circle) would slowly light up around them.
A good example of this is in someone's video titled "Nick with Fire" (the first one) when at the start he does a low turn (I think that was it) and some small blue flames spread from under his feet.
I've done the twirlling in a small circle of fire a few times when filming for videos etc... and upon watching the film later concluded it looked pretty cool, especially when we cleared out a 'moat' in the snow for it, so it was all snowy out, with me spinning in a circle of fire built in the snow
It did get a bit warm in the middle of it (It was winter, I didn't mind
), but a pair of long pants solves that problem.So ever since then I've been toying with the idea in my head...why not take it one step further and make a more elaborate pattern on the ground?
I can remember someone who proposed using kevlar cord to soak up the fuel and laying it out in patterns etc... so that the fuel wouldn't travel anywhere or soak into the ground (if using sand, like I usually do).
On the topic of fuel, I used a 1:3 mix of colemans:kero. needed the colemans to get it all to light up well, and the kero to give it a bit longer of a burn time.
I was thinking, perhaps one could get someone to film from overhead, or from higher ground, and you could make a somewhat larger pattern. It could be a very nice touch for any video. I know there are some performers who use vertical patterns of fire (built on fences, poles, supports etc...) so if you guys have any advice or remarks, it'd be much appreciated.
I was thinking, maybe a large pentagram (6 foot radius?), with someone spinning in the middle of it. I was planning on doing it in a baseball diamond by the homeplate so we could get a good aerial view (backstop) and the ground would be fire resistant (it's gravel)...
Other ideas I had were things like a celtic cross or some nifty celtic designs...
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I've got a few more months before the summer season, so I've got a while to toy with ideas still...
EDIT: Right, for some reason I called that video durb's twice with in 24 hours of each other...
EDITED_BY: ImmortalAngel (1105332088)
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />
enthusiast
384 posts
Location: West LA
384 posts
Location: West LA
Posted:
...turns around and asks Nick ... nope he says its not Durb's video.
but you could do a durbs
Written by:
Durb's video titled "Nick with Fire"
...turns around and asks Nick ... nope he says its not Durb's video.
but you could do a durbs
To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
Done this sort of thing before, it's fairly straightforward, I use 100% natural fibre rope which i soak in a large bucket of kero / parafin, then arange in desired pattern, although substantially cheaper than kevlar, it has a restricted number of burns, I can see the attraction if using kevlar.
mark
Done this sort of thing before, it's fairly straightforward, I use 100% natural fibre rope which i soak in a large bucket of kero / parafin, then arange in desired pattern, although substantially cheaper than kevlar, it has a restricted number of burns, I can see the attraction if using kevlar.
mark
BRONZE Member
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA
Posted:
i see your logic but i think theres a flaw...you have to remember how fast colemans evaporates...by the time that you lay out your pattern and have everything ready, guessing around 5 min for really complex designs if your REALLY on the ball...most of the colemans in the mix will have already evaporated and your left with trying to light a pattern with kero...
to do these shapes you need a fuel thats..lets call it "sticky"
white gas is a sticky fuel but it evaporates very quickly...and since we already mentioned breaking the HOP rules on fuels...gasoline, in my experience stays on the ground for quite a bit longer...the only issue however is the safety problems associated with it...(vapour fires mainly)
using wick is probably the best idea BUT, you need to do fuel that is quickly lit...but doesnt evaporate..and im not too sure that such a thing by nature would exist..but who knows
keep tryin...ill post whatever i can think of
EDITED_BY: darkpoet (1105376269)
i see your logic but i think theres a flaw...you have to remember how fast colemans evaporates...by the time that you lay out your pattern and have everything ready, guessing around 5 min for really complex designs if your REALLY on the ball...most of the colemans in the mix will have already evaporated and your left with trying to light a pattern with kero...
to do these shapes you need a fuel thats..lets call it "sticky"
white gas is a sticky fuel but it evaporates very quickly...and since we already mentioned breaking the HOP rules on fuels...gasoline, in my experience stays on the ground for quite a bit longer...the only issue however is the safety problems associated with it...(vapour fires mainly)
using wick is probably the best idea BUT, you need to do fuel that is quickly lit...but doesnt evaporate..and im not too sure that such a thing by nature would exist..but who knows
keep tryin...ill post whatever i can think of
EDITED_BY: darkpoet (1105376269)
Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes
Co-Founder of Keepers of Light
Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA
Posted:
if your willing to put in the time and effort you can create a prop run by propane...
using some sort of pipe you could drill holes into and make a circular pattern..but i have no idea how to make it safe to run and ignite propane through the rig..so your on your own there..
if your willing to put in the time and effort you can create a prop run by propane...
using some sort of pipe you could drill holes into and make a circular pattern..but i have no idea how to make it safe to run and ignite propane through the rig..so your on your own there..
Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes
Co-Founder of Keepers of Light
Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
whhat about use kero for the main pattern, then a little bit of coleman's, freshly poured, to ignite it? the heat should light the rest of the kero, methinks.
whhat about use kero for the main pattern, then a little bit of coleman's, freshly poured, to ignite it? the heat should light the rest of the kero, methinks.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
If I'm doing any particularly complex pattern work, i tend to ignite electronically, since i ran into problems with cutting kero / para with colmans a long time ago, i have found though with natural fibre rope it is very straightforward to degrade (breakup) enough of the surface to of the surface to allow striaghtforward ignition with kero.
mark
If I'm doing any particularly complex pattern work, i tend to ignite electronically, since i ran into problems with cutting kero / para with colmans a long time ago, i have found though with natural fibre rope it is very straightforward to degrade (breakup) enough of the surface to of the surface to allow striaghtforward ignition with kero.
mark
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
I've done some stuff using "layflat" tubing to cover paper rope soaked in paraffin, sometimes with some white spirit thrown in to make it catch quicker (photo in my gallery). You soak the rope and then slide it into a plastic wrapper (the layflat tube) so that the fuel doesn't evaporate and it's easy to handle. When you burn it, the plastic is pretty thin, so it just kinda vapourises.
(Unless you get the thick stuff, in which case molten plastic rains down everywhere...
)
I've done some stuff using "layflat" tubing to cover paper rope soaked in paraffin, sometimes with some white spirit thrown in to make it catch quicker (photo in my gallery). You soak the rope and then slide it into a plastic wrapper (the layflat tube) so that the fuel doesn't evaporate and it's easy to handle. When you burn it, the plastic is pretty thin, so it just kinda vapourises.
(Unless you get the thick stuff, in which case molten plastic rains down everywhere...
) monkeys ate my brain
Pooh-Bah
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
Posted:
I thought the raining molten plastic falling on me was more to do with the fact that the plastic tubing was too large for the rope so that the paraffin pooled. Maybe that isn't so much of an issue if the rope is just laid out on the ground though.
I wasnt' really paying attention though, so I could easily be wrong about the pooling.
*goes to peruse debrief notes*
I thought the raining molten plastic falling on me was more to do with the fact that the plastic tubing was too large for the rope so that the paraffin pooled. Maybe that isn't so much of an issue if the rope is just laid out on the ground though.
I wasnt' really paying attention though, so I could easily be wrong about the pooling.
*goes to peruse debrief notes*
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
I worked with similar stuff while taking part in a pyrotechnics course, I found it to be really useful, and generally thin enough not to pool molten plastic, no longer sure as where to source the material from though, very good for fire sculpture and vertical installations, as well as groundfire
mark
I worked with similar stuff while taking part in a pyrotechnics course, I found it to be really useful, and generally thin enough not to pool molten plastic, no longer sure as where to source the material from though, very good for fire sculpture and vertical installations, as well as groundfire
mark
starring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted:
on an older post(mebbe even on the old board), someone mentioned using sawdust soaked in kero to get some good burn times. I'd imagine the hardest part would be getting it distributed evenly enough to get a consistent burn. Much messier than using rope too.
on an older post(mebbe even on the old board), someone mentioned using sawdust soaked in kero to get some good burn times. I'd imagine the hardest part would be getting it distributed evenly enough to get a consistent burn. Much messier than using rope too.
First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica
" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."
SILVER Member
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
I think if I were to use a coleman/kero mix on some rope it'd work out alright...I mean, I've done spins with pure colemans before (simply because I had no kero ^.^') and they lasted 2-3 minutes (with small wicks)...about 1 minute of good flames and then it started to die down.
I bought some Nylon rope a while back (can't remember why, just did...) and it crossed my mind to use that, but as far as I remember from experiences with burning nylon, it doesn't burn so much as melt, and makes alot of smell...
if anyone could confirm my memories, or if you've had expereinces with burning nylon (for what ever reason lol), I'd be interested in knowing what the properties are.
And DP, I don't intend on using Gasoline as I'm looking for a less vapourful flame (I don't want to be wearing a mask for it, as I plan on using this for videos etc...) although, the propane idea did sound intresting I'd have to find someway to hook up a regulator and figure out some settings for it...I don't plan on blowing my self up in all of this ^.^'
I think if I were to use a coleman/kero mix on some rope it'd work out alright...I mean, I've done spins with pure colemans before (simply because I had no kero ^.^') and they lasted 2-3 minutes (with small wicks)...about 1 minute of good flames and then it started to die down.
I bought some Nylon rope a while back (can't remember why, just did...) and it crossed my mind to use that, but as far as I remember from experiences with burning nylon, it doesn't burn so much as melt, and makes alot of smell...
if anyone could confirm my memories, or if you've had expereinces with burning nylon (for what ever reason lol), I'd be interested in knowing what the properties are.
And DP, I don't intend on using Gasoline as I'm looking for a less vapourful flame (I don't want to be wearing a mask for it, as I plan on using this for videos etc...) although, the propane idea did sound intresting
I'd have to find someway to hook up a regulator and figure out some settings for it...I don't plan on blowing my self up in all of this ^.^' Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Paper rope might be a good thing to check out, too - it only works once, but it's a great wick, and often has a formable wire in the centre which can be nice for 3d work; it's used as a former in fiberglass projects, so a fibreglass supplier is a good bet. 25mm rope makes nice big flames, and burns for about 8 minutes IIRC, but you can get bigger, thicker stuff.
I've got a supplier here, but that's probably no good to you
Paper rope might be a good thing to check out, too - it only works once, but it's a great wick, and often has a formable wire in the centre which can be nice for 3d work; it's used as a former in fiberglass projects, so a fibreglass supplier is a good bet. 25mm rope makes nice big flames, and burns for about 8 minutes IIRC, but you can get bigger, thicker stuff.
I've got a supplier here, but that's probably no good to you
monkeys ate my brain
BRONZE Member
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA
Posted:
hahaha..insert sig line
Written by: ImmortalAngel
And DP, I don't intend on using Gasoline as I'm looking for a less vapourful flame (I don't want to be wearing a mask for it, as I plan on using this for videos etc...) ...I don't plan on blowing my self up in all of this ^.^'
hahaha..insert sig line
Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes
Co-Founder of Keepers of Light
Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
"I've got a supplier here, but that's probably no good to you"
Might be useful for me to know about since i've got some 3d fire scuplture projects in mind for this year, normally i use natural fibre rope with wire former for this work but would be very interested in paper rope
mark
"I've got a supplier here, but that's probably no good to you"
Might be useful for me to know about since i've got some 3d fire scuplture projects in mind for this year, normally i use natural fibre rope with wire former for this work but would be very interested in paper rope
mark
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Oh, and here's some people that do layflat, although I haven't used them:
https://www.plasticsbypost.co.uk/layflattubing.htm
reckon the thinnest (38 micron) stuff is what you want.
Oh, and here's some people that do layflat, although I haven't used them:
https://www.plasticsbypost.co.uk/layflattubing.htm
reckon the thinnest (38 micron) stuff is what you want.
monkeys ate my brain
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
Many thanks for that, I'll get some pics posted, and let you know how it goes
mark
Many thanks for that, I'll get some pics posted, and let you know how it goes
mark
SILVER Member
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
Maybe pictures of the process of construction or a debrief if you felt like it? It would be appreciated greatly by anyone wishing to try the same thing or something similar
Maybe pictures of the process of construction or a debrief if you felt like it? It would be appreciated greatly by anyone wishing to try the same thing or something similar
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
There are details of the last fire sculpture I did here, with some video at the end so you get an idea how quickly they catch fire:
https://www.mo-seph.com/main/fire/tensegrity/samhuinn
I might have some more photos of the layflat tubing etc, I'll have a look if you're interested
There are details of the last fire sculpture I did here, with some video at the end so you get an idea how quickly they catch fire:
https://www.mo-seph.com/main/fire/tensegrity/samhuinn
I might have some more photos of the layflat tubing etc, I'll have a look if you're interested
monkeys ate my brain
member
46 posts
Location: Oregon
46 posts
Location: Oregon
Posted:
Actually Musashii that was one of my posts on this same subject you are referring to J
I have used a mix of Kero and sawdust, or other inert absorband filler before for ground fires.
I personally like sawdust, both for ease of use, and cost. Simply mix the two until you get the desired consistency. For ground work something along the lines of toothpaste-peanut butter is usually best. It does take a little bit of setup time, but not too bad. It does have the benefit of being almost completely burnt up, and leaves very little ash or waste behind. It can also be stored pretty much indefinitely in an airtight container.
Another possibility if you are looking for a longer lasting ground fire I recommend using a natural rope, Jute is cheap, and lights easily, and dope it with candle wax (Parafin here in the U.S.).
Simply heat the wax as you would to make candles, then soak the rope thoroughly until it no longer bubbles and is saturated. (NOTE: Fore anyone who has not dealt with wax before, please read the instructions that come with the wax fully and be careful. Using an open flame, or making a few other mistakes can cause a very ugly explosion or fire. For best results, do not do stupid things.)
Once the rope is soaked, remove it from the wax, and hang it somewhere safe to dry. Once it is dry, it can be wound and unwound a couple of times to break up some of the way, and make it more absorbent. When you are ready to use this, simply dip it in Kero like any other wick, and lay out your pattern.
The payoff for this extra work is a pattern on the ground which can burn for longer than most people can spin. Done properly, I have seen these last up to half an hour or more. Do note however that burning the rope this long does effectively destroy the rope. So this is a one time use only item.
This is also a viable method for making wicks for other props that last a VERY long time. The only downside for wicks is that the wax is a cooler burning fuel than Kero or Colemans, so it will burn a little less brightly. This is not often noticeable however, and I feel the trade off of a much longer burn is worth it. Especially when I am just wanting to burn for myself, or for practice.
However as these are still a single use only item, if you are going to do this for your normal props make sure the heads are easily removable, and you do not mind making several sets.
Actually Musashii that was one of my posts on this same subject you are referring to J
I have used a mix of Kero and sawdust, or other inert absorband filler before for ground fires.
I personally like sawdust, both for ease of use, and cost. Simply mix the two until you get the desired consistency. For ground work something along the lines of toothpaste-peanut butter is usually best. It does take a little bit of setup time, but not too bad. It does have the benefit of being almost completely burnt up, and leaves very little ash or waste behind. It can also be stored pretty much indefinitely in an airtight container.
Another possibility if you are looking for a longer lasting ground fire I recommend using a natural rope, Jute is cheap, and lights easily, and dope it with candle wax (Parafin here in the U.S.).
Simply heat the wax as you would to make candles, then soak the rope thoroughly until it no longer bubbles and is saturated. (NOTE: Fore anyone who has not dealt with wax before, please read the instructions that come with the wax fully and be careful. Using an open flame, or making a few other mistakes can cause a very ugly explosion or fire. For best results, do not do stupid things.)
Once the rope is soaked, remove it from the wax, and hang it somewhere safe to dry. Once it is dry, it can be wound and unwound a couple of times to break up some of the way, and make it more absorbent. When you are ready to use this, simply dip it in Kero like any other wick, and lay out your pattern.
The payoff for this extra work is a pattern on the ground which can burn for longer than most people can spin. Done properly, I have seen these last up to half an hour or more. Do note however that burning the rope this long does effectively destroy the rope. So this is a one time use only item.
This is also a viable method for making wicks for other props that last a VERY long time. The only downside for wicks is that the wax is a cooler burning fuel than Kero or Colemans, so it will burn a little less brightly. This is not often noticeable however, and I feel the trade off of a much longer burn is worth it. Especially when I am just wanting to burn for myself, or for practice.
However as these are still a single use only item, if you are going to do this for your normal props make sure the heads are easily removable, and you do not mind making several sets.
We are all atheists, some of us just believe in fewer gods than others. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-Stephen F. Roberts
SILVER Member
Member
170 posts
Location: Ft. Myers, Florida, USA
Member
170 posts
Location: Ft. Myers, Florida, USA
Posted:
i saw the nick with fire video, and its awesome, he got the music and the flames to match up perfectly, its almost like he has electricity arround his feet, its nice
i saw the nick with fire video, and its awesome, he got the music and the flames to match up perfectly, its almost like he has electricity arround his feet, its nice
You've got the wings of a fallen angel
You offer peace if they praise your name
You live your life taking everything you can get
Look down, time to fly!
SILVER Member
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
I believe he used colemans for the stuff on the ground because I don't think Kero would have given off a blue flame like that...and because it was spreading.
And yes, it was a very nice video
I believe he used colemans for the stuff on the ground because I don't think Kero would have given off a blue flame like that...and because it was spreading.
And yes, it was a very nice video
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />
BRONZE Member
Member
91 posts
Location: knoxville, tennessee, usa
Member
91 posts
Location: knoxville, tennessee, usa
Posted:
the propane idea sounds great. ive tried finding some plans or how to's on the net but most info is fairly sketchy. not the type of thing you want to be sketchy about. there are loads of photos of people using them though. mostly at burning man. maybe you could send some e-mails to people and see if someone is willing to help you get started. most that attend are nice folks. not the simplest solution but... the benifits are one time costs and cheap fuel. and you can reuse your patterns over and over. trasportation may be a prob unless you design it to be transported in pieces. doubt this helps but who knows. good luck.
the propane idea sounds great. ive tried finding some plans or how to's on the net but most info is fairly sketchy. not the type of thing you want to be sketchy about. there are loads of photos of people using them though. mostly at burning man. maybe you could send some e-mails to people and see if someone is willing to help you get started. most that attend are nice folks. not the simplest solution but... the benifits are one time costs and cheap fuel. and you can reuse your patterns over and over. trasportation may be a prob unless you design it to be transported in pieces. doubt this helps but who knows. good luck.
if anyone orders Merlot, i'm leaving.
SILVER Member
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
I could talk to the entire group of the Controlled Burn team, they are always good for new fire inventions...
I could talk to the entire group of the Controlled Burn team, they are always good for new fire inventions...
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />
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