Forums > Help! > Another Dance Thread ?...Kinda

Hi Stout,



Welcome to HOP.



There might be some things in this thread that could help.



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Love is the law.

I've found that there are quite a few belly dance moves that can be done while spinning e.g. shimmies, undulations, chest circles, figure 8's & backward figure 8's with hips, etc. I don't know a lot about making belly dancing look manly, but I know I have seen some mighty sexy male bellydancers (who were heterosexual). Given, I've only tried the dance moves with pretty simple poi moves and only with non-flaming poi but it does work.

You may not be interested in Middle Eastern dance at all but thought I'd throw it in for consideration. We do have a guy in our troupe but he is openly gay and doesn't always mind if his moves look a little girly. But moves can be altered for men such as making fists rather than pretty hand gestures, also stronger, more earthy moves, wider stance, etc.


Ilanah

If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution.

Hee hee that is funny about the interviewer and the crotch shot!

So glad you are not against the idea of bellydancing and no one will make you wear sequins! (perish the thought)

I am into SCA Middle Ages reenactment and do lots of Middle Eastern dancing at events and no one wears sequins. I wear mostly things like Persian coats and harem pants made from cotton. You have more options since you don't actually have to look period. I think you could wear some tightly fitted harem pants (to avoid catching them on fire) and boots (or barefoot or sandals) maybe a sash around the waist.... one of those Middle Eastern looking vests maybe with no shirt or a tight fitting shirt. You can't go wrong with the bad boy "gypsy/pirate look" *grin* You can add a coin belt if you like the look of it. You could go for a small turban or a bandana if you wanted.

I was practicing poi last night and I was thinking about your wanting to mix dance moves with it. So I tried a few more moves while spinning (given I am a very rank novice at poi but have been belly dancing for 7 years) Examples: a step-hip lift combination with basic spinning forward or back; shimmies with anything; hip drop, small kick combo with a wave. Also hip circles, hip locks to the side, head slides, also backbends, undulations, figure 8's with hips while going up on toes, bending down to floor are all relatively easy while spinning (with a little extra concentration...)

Here's some websites related to male ME dancing:

http://www.jimboz.com/
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http://www.bdancer.com/med-guide/dir/mendir.html
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http://www.pjdiscodance.co.uk/HammedSughayyar.htm
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http://www.kamaalsharem.com/
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http://www.bdancer.com/Masculine.html
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P.S. If you do a search on your own, for the love of god be wary of the website with the drag queens with mustaches and beards and shiny sequined costumes.... that's an image that is now burned into my brain... I can spare you my pain.... (I love drag queens they are fun but was looking for something manly to show you! And for pete's sake, they could have shaved the beards...)

Ilanah

If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution.

Hi stout,

Good post, it�s no big secret that I can�t dance either.
Well, that�s not entirely correct. I can freestyle a bit, and I can do poi, but not both together. Like when I do poi, it�s the poi that are dancing. When I freestyle, it�s my feet that are dancing. And when there is no music, it�s just practice.

My achilles' heel' is foot work, and I�m working on that with simple �about faces�, slow steps, pirouette turns etc. I find affinity with what ladyilanah said �I've found that there are quite a few belly dance moves that can be done while spinning e.g. shimmies, undulations, chest circles, figure 8's & backward figure 8's with hips, etc.� Thanks for the links.

I do figure 8's with my hips So, to take this a step further, if you know how to use poi then you will have coordination, and be familiar with fig 8�s, three beat weaves etc. So, why not use this knowledge to develop your own dance. Try doing a three beat weave with your legs and feet instead of your arms and hands. Try it in waltz time

I�ve been trying this because I did a couple of Latin classes, and while not underrating the value of the samba bounce, imho, they were all pretty pretentious, strutting around like they had broomsticks up their colacas. It�s the same with dance sports and the other dance stuff I see on the telly, no feel, no rhythm -just steps and plastic smiles.

And if you want to learn the �snake dance� then I suggest you check out Club and torch swinging. or The Dance of the Serpents

Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Oh my god Stone you have no idea how much you just helped me! I have been planning to buy a pair of torches as soon as I get paid again, I've got them all picked out and everything! I've decided that torch swinging is the closest fire-worthy art similar to belly dancing with ribbon sticks or double swords, which I already know how to do. But doing a search on torches or clubs on here brings up all sorts of (mostly irrelevant) threads. This is a great thread and the free download looks like a great resource so thanks! You just made my day! And I have to learn this dance move you're talking about with the 3 beat wave...*must practice* *must practice*

Back to the male Middle Eastern dancing, some of the moves look more masculine then others, I am thinking. For example: hip drops, hip lifts, hip drop & kicks, step & hip lift combos, etc none of these are particularly feminine at all in my opinion and may be more favored in a male's repertoire of moves. Since we're not talking about troupe choreography here Stout you can pick and choose the ones you like. Of course, in class you will have to go along with what everybody else is learning but when you're performing dance & spinning it is all up to you.

Bonus to taking bd lessons: Almost all girls in the classes. You may find yourself the center of some very nice attention and lots of encouragement from the womenfolk. (At least that has been my experience...)

There could be a few snooty teachers out there I suppose but I don't see why any teacher would mind that you want to learn the dancing just to be able to spin with it. They may ask if you want to perform with poi in their shows though (but probably not with fire.) Wooden stages and flaming poi.... hmm yeah not good... but maybe at some shows, and beaming poi would be great.

If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution.

Hi ladyilanah, thanks, glad to help. I agree Middle Eastern Dance does suit Indian club swinging. Good choice With clubs, learning the grips and how to swing or fold the club around the body is the key to smooth, graceful swinging. Keep an eye on the club/torch swing thread, as I�ll update the grips soon. Poi and club swinging also have much in common, so I would suggest looking at the free poi lessons at HOP, to learn the 3-beat weave, and other moves. Not surprisingly, there are a number of poier�s at HOP, that also do bellydancer. I think Pele has some large snakes and mr arashi can float his veil with the best of them

I think I prefer Eastern dance because it has more room for structured improvisation, body movement and swirling, turning, incorporates many props, and can feature hand movements. It�s about self expression and you are encouraged to interpret the moves according to the way your body moves and response to the music. Where as Western dance seems to be all dance steps and feet. Even �hat and cane� to an extent.

stout, fair enough on the props. I was more than a little dismayed when I read this bit on props in Middle Eastern Dance �Aside from the fact that the object in question should have a balance point which is not too slick, the only real "gimmick" is the skill of the dancer.� I love my props, that�s why I dance. As far as the role of men in bellydance goes, look at the props. I think I�d feel pretty masculine swinging these Knives. Apparently in Raks Sharki men use trays, jars, swords, sticks or canes. Then there is a Moroccan "tray dance" that is generally done by men in coffee houses, where a tray and glasses are balanced while dancing (horizontal snake ?). In Persian, a dance is done where a glass is placed on one's forehead, going into a backbend. And, there are other assorted cane and stick dances. And perhaps the more feminine veils, zills? gloves, hand flowers and slave bracelets. From the The Joyful Dancer-History of Bellydance. Which is one, of the many generous sites on Eastern dance.

When people talk of contortionist 7 beat weaves and such, I think of coiling snakes, which is a feature of Eastern dance and Indian club swinging, except they actually use real snakes in The Dance of the Serpents: �Throughout the world, tribal religion and art features the serpent as a symbol of great power, regeneration and inspiration. Many ancient tribes honored the Mother of Creation in the form of a serpent, paying tribute to her eternal wisdom and ageless mystique. This was a vast influence in the origin of �belly dance. Medical doctors still use the �caduceus� two snakes intertwining up an eternal flame or winged staff, as a symbol of their profession.�

As far as Club swinging and dance goes, most of the club stuff is done in wall plane, with a statuesque posture, but even Schatz and the old club swingers put in a few bounds, bounces, and lunges in with their military turns. I�ve been concentrating on walking, which is the first step in dance, but I reallywant to move on a learn a dance that lets me work the Circle, made famous by Phunky. Who ironically enough, went off the learn more about dance. So, I�m looking for patterns for working the circle, like clover leaf, spirals etc. I assume that Eastern dancers would use some kind of floor patterns.

In the mean time, walking is the way to go, as Jai Chavan said at his humble and yet extremely generous Dance-Sport Site: �Making Time� is the first dance exercise, and �The March" was the first organised "War Dance" The plot thickens, as Jay is an Indian, who teaches Western Ballroom and Latin Dancing. However, I�d have to agree with Jai who maintains that Ballroom dancing originated in India, or most certainly was also discovered by ancient Indian dancers. Jai�s site is a fantastic resource and if people are prepared to learn how to use it, the amount of dance information it contains is staggering.

Then there is this fabulous article on walking at the JoyfulDancers site on Walking as Meditation and Warmup which finishes with, what I would have thought an to be an un characteristic quote of Neitzsche who said, "I would believe only in a God who can dance." Perhaps not.

Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Hi stout,

How are the dance lessons? Can you do the Disc or Nightclub two-step, as per Buddy Schiwimmer�s definition? Like, taking two steps with the left foot and then two steps with the right foot. Like this (leader's part), Left & Left - Right & Right. Or 1 & 2 - 3 & 4. It�s a good mover, so is the samba bounce

. Since you asked, traditional Indian club swinging is just like swinging poi, and staff/pole, except it�s done with bowling pin shapes clubs. Many of the moves are the similar, and this causes much confusion. It has roots in the ancient Olympics, in ndia, in military training, gymnastics and in many ways could be considered a pre-curser to modern weight lifting. The basic long arm and shoulder circles are easy and look great with fire, though the fancy moves are as technical as ballet. And, you can also clubs. For more info see the Club and torch swinging thread, link above somewhere.

It would be hard to forget Angelina Jolie doing the three beat weave in Tomb Raider (2?). And there�s more Vaudeville dancing at Early Break Dancing: which mainly says �Vaudeville dancing borrowed a lot from gymnastics and acrobatics, but by the 1920s, theatrical dancing also included a little tap and more of what we consider "dance steps." This film of the "Three Jumping Tommies" opens with three acrobats in British military uniforms performing backflips, cartwheels, and somersaults. In between all the stunts, they do a little shuffle dance and a few twirls. They also perform some stunts with stacked tables. What does that remind you of? How about the circus?�

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Ha stout, I was just kidding about the dance lessons, as I have been rather slack in that department. The most assessable dance classes around here are �Rock n Roll�. Might give them a go.

Shrinking pants hmm; and here�s me thinking of a dark, foaming beverage I�m not a runner, so I would suggest there should be some good warm-up exercises in Anna Jillings club swinging book at the Cosmos site. Double poi sound wicked, but I thought that the weight would keep them in line. Club swingers have tight lines

"Afro Belly" sounds cool. I think there is a stream of primitive/African belly dance as well as the Middle Eastern dancing. Try the two-step. Yeah it�s simple, but it�s a gem of a move. It gives you freedom. You can slide, shuffle, use it to move around the circle; and it buys you time. Like for between the leg stuff, you can go in with one step and out with the next step. Cheers.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

I just had a "light bulb" moment and had to share. When stout said:



"Belly dancing, ..., the dance style that seems to be most closely related to the spinning arts...."



I'm not sure that is entirely true now. Here's the story:



I have been belly dancing for about 7 or 8 years. Last week, for the very first time, I got asked to do a Hawaiian themed show. They said they didn't mind if I just did belly dancing in a Hula outfit. So I bought the grass skirt and the leis, practiced some hawaiian moves, and "poof" I'm a Hula girl! (Ok, maybe not, but I looked like one!)



I also bought my first pair of fireflies, and wow! what a difference having lights makes! They're so beautiful in the dark! I was mesmerizing myself! But I digress...



So I'm just a rank amateur at poi and at hula but my point is that it amazed me how well the "hula" style moves went with the poi spinning, and since poi came from Hawaii I think it could maybe stand to reason that Hula dance is in fact the closest dance style to the spinning arts.



Ilanah

If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution.

Thanks ladyilanah, the hula is a idea.



Better watch your grass skirt with fire though



Another idea would be to incorporate the "hula hoop" or �fire hula hoop� which as the name suggest, came from imitating the Hawaiian dance. Also, hula hoop is the new dance craze, so start practicing.



Stout, I agree that �that most of the women who show up just to dance, come from a belly dancing background.� Perhaps that�s because, even in this day and age, many men still sit around at dances. I think Jillings has a section on glow routines in her club swinging book. Good Luck with the show.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

you know, i think really any movement can be incorporated into spinning, but acrobatics, belly dance, and martial arts are the most common forms of movement so they have the most spinners. i really like liquid, belly dance and lately, balinesian and indian temple dance for spinning. i also like to put in kabuki stuff too. but i've also seen some really great ballet spinners and acro-balancing spinners, and a breakin' spinner. and glass has been taking swing lessons

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Hi arashi, I checked out Balinese dancing for their intricate hand/arm/etc movements and a possible cross over to clubs, but decided to steer clear because of possible religious implications with their dances (could be wrong about that though). Often when I'm practicing in wall plane, I tend to think 'dance like an Egyptian'.

If people have read the Contact Juggling book by James Ernest, then they will know that the hand movements for the contact butterfly come from Middle Eastern Dance.

cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution.

I know how you feel preparing for a performance during every spare second... my hula show is tomorrow night...I'm not nervous at all about the belly dance part.... But this will be my first poi performance ever! So that scares me.... Good luck with your show, let us know how it goes. I'm sure you will be great!

Ilanah, (thinking about hula hoops on fire.... *grin*)

If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution.

I finally decided I must get some dance lessons. Here is a link to a local dance called the Melbourne Shuffle. Basic #2 is a good place to start.

I'm told it is similar to the "Utrecht Toprock" which is apparently a 8-beat (2-bar) with a syncopated downstep on every beat except the first, the dominant foot is down on the syncopated step and the less dominant on the beat itself.

So, now you can see why I need lessons. I'd like to start with Latin, but perhaps it would be better to try RnR or Round dancing first.

Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Hi glass, I'm glad the link was useful, and thanks for the tips

I had no idea the Melbourne Shuffle was similar to the Charleston. I'm not surprised though, as many dances, like the Night Club Two Step for example, are re-invented (see below). But brilliant I hadn't made the connection between the Roaring 20's and the Roaring 2000'. Well except for the obvious, that starting with the waltz all new dance crazes have been banned or considered unlawful. So, yeah I'm booking into some Lindy lessons and for sure it would be ace to see some of the Charleston dance battles.

Yes I agree, it's good getting lots of roots. Like "The Charleston had probably African, possible Ashanti roots A dance of the Shimmy variety, it was essentially feminine, but became more masculine in the later commercial form. The eccentric sidekicks and syncopation were merged into a less agile dance that was more suited for the public, which is now Quickstep.

The Charleston, a percussor to the Lindy, is done in ragtime. Ragtime being a musical form or style that is defined as a syncopated melody (usually in 2/4 time) over a regular, march tempo bass line. Syncopation is generally recognised as a trait of Afro-American music." From Jai's Dance Sport site, linked earlier. And many Latin dances also have African roots.

Btw, Jay is an Indian who maintains that Ballroom dancing originated in India, or most certainly was also discovered by ancient Indian dancers, and I think he has a fair point.

Night Club Two Step: Latin dancers say Night Club is taken from Salsa, Western dancers claim it is a slow Polka, and Ballroom dancers see resemblances to Samba and Bolero. Chances are, if you know any dance at all based on a Triple Step, at some point you will notice similarities between your dance and Night Club.

Well thats another reasons for lessons, how else would I find out why a two step dance, is actually a triple step dance.

Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Thanx glass,



Good idea with the old movies. I remember seeing The Nicholas brothers on That's Hollywood, and they were absolutely fantastic dancers. There were also interviews with Fred, Ginger etc. I might even dig up some old Carmen Miranda movies for samba.



Stormy weather with the Nicholas Brothers and Cab Calloway (of Mini the Moocher fame?). Think I might buy that one.



Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh