Page: 12
Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:Is time linear? If it is then couldn't you view the universe as 2 demensional. the first being the physical and the second being time. And if time is linear then what does that mean for free will. Or is it the other way around?

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

Delete Topic

Catalyst
Catalyst

member
Location: Virginia
Member Since: 27th Nov 2003
Total posts: 103
Posted:Time may be "linear", but has little bearing on the world being 2 dimesional. Because "time" has been "created" by us humans...and is purely speculative. And, only a simple way to measure our existance.

As far as the free will bit....do you mean that if time were linear, meaning specific points drawn out, that they would already be there with the existance of time, therefore free will would be non-existant because the points were already planned out??


Delete

Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:yeah but is time linear. i believe the second demension is linear, but time is a few rings up isnt it. think of time on a graphwyhat would it look like?

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

Delete

Catalyst
Catalyst

member
Location: Virginia
Member Since: 27th Nov 2003
Total posts: 103
Posted:The Second Dimension is the PLANE, such as a square. It contains an infinite number of straight lines. In Time, the Second Dimension represents the Present. The trajectory of moments in the First Dimension (Future) appears like a disk or revolution.



In the second dimension we have the Rational numbers, based on three points, visualized on the plane with a vertical and horizontal axis. The number plane was known to the Pythagoreans and called the Chi:



Rational numbers are produced by division in the positive field and multiplication in the negative field. Zero is the center of the CHI, which for Pythagoras and Plato was the tool of the Demiurge, the Creator. The fields contain only the fractions and products inside the ten numbers. Division is the basis of thinking, multiplication the synergy of the soul.

Love it....Brandy


Delete

satyagraha
newbie
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 18th Sep 2004
Total posts: 11
Posted:" Time is not a line but a dimension, like the dimensions of space.
If you can bend space you can bend time also, and if you knew enough and could move faster than light you could travel backwards in time and exist in two places at once.

It was my brother Stephen who told me than, when he wore his ravelling maroon sweater to study in and spent a lot of time standing on his head so that the blood would run down into his brain and nourish it. I didn't understand what he meant, but maybe he didn't explain it very well. He was already moving away from the imprecision of words.

But I began then to think of time as having a shape, something you could see, like a series of liquid transparencies, one laid on top of another. You don't look back along time but down through it, like water. Sometimes this comes to the surface, sometimes that, sometimes nothing. Nothing goes away. "


i'm a good kisser, but you're a fast learner...

Delete

coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:seriously, i'm not taking the piss here - do a search.



there's a seriously badass discussion on time here (possibly split over two threads - i can't remember).



simian will find them for you and i'm sure charles would relish them getting bumped and having some fresh imput.



they are both very, very good and very, very confusing.



as i say, if the search don't work, pm the monkey and i reckon he'll be able to dig them up for you.



being a philosophisizin ape from the future and all, he tends to know about this kind of thing...





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Stands in for the monkey.
smile


Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Burning Brain

Is time linear? If it is then couldn't you view the universe as 2 demensional. the first being the physical and the second being time. And if time is linear then what does that mean for free will. Or is it the other way around?


Yes time is linear - it's the fourth dimension after the three spatial dimensions. This is what Einstein's theories of relativity were all about, and why physicists talk about "spacetime" as one thing rather than space and time separately.

I don't know that that has anything to do with free will though, because we can only ever travel in time in one direction smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: BrandyH

The Second Dimension is the PLANE, such as a square. It contains an infinite number of straight lines. In Time, the Second Dimension represents the Present. The trajectory of moments in the First Dimension (Future) appears like a disk or revolution.

In the second dimension we have the Rational numbers, based on three points, visualized on the plane with a vertical and horizontal axis. The number plane was known to the Pythagoreans and called the Chi:

Rational numbers are produced by division in the positive field and multiplication in the negative field. Zero is the center of the CHI, which for Pythagoras and Plato was the tool of the Demiurge, the Creator. The fields contain only the fractions and products inside the ten numbers. Division is the basis of thinking, multiplication the synergy of the soul.

Love it....Brandy


Well... no. But lots of good buzzwords there!


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:SpiralX...

rolleyes


Delete

Socks
Socks

Arf! Can I have a biscut?
Location: North America, Mid West
Member Since: 28th Nov 2004
Total posts: 288
Posted:Time.

The wise invest it.

Einstein warped it.

Timmothy Leary smoked it. (Or was that t-h-Y-m-e?)

Jim Croche tried to bottle it. It's the last concept that amazes me. It suggests to me that time can be a comodity, something you can purchase. After all, time IS money. But I can see that time is a limited supply, or at least the "Prime time" would be. Stuff like historical events, hysterical events, and blackmail events that you'd want others not to see. rolleyes

And naturally you'd have to sell futures. But you can't just sell them to anyone. You can't sell them to bankers, investors, weathermen, or psychics predicting the Super Bowl. confused But futures would be even more expensive, as everyone would invest in the future. So you'd have to go in with several people to buy blocks of time, and Time Sharing would be popular again. biggrin

And once you buy your little block of the past, you'll want to enjoy it again again, time after time. But if it got dull, or even dare I say dated, you can always sell your time, or place it in a nice safe place to be found in the future. So yes, time capsules would preserve the past for the future generations to enjoy.

You can put it nest to platform shoes, rubicks cubes, and DDR machines! peace

devil (your head hurt yet?) spank

Socks the fuzzball
Messing with minds and exploring wordplay for a LONG time now. hee hee! TIME! wow


I'm weird. Just work through that and we'll all be fine.

"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater suggest that he wear a tail." - Fran Lebowitz

Delete

Catalyst
Catalyst

member
Location: Virginia
Member Since: 27th Nov 2003
Total posts: 103
Posted:Hey.....I copied that off of some other website.....it has to be true!!!...So, what happens when we turn back our clocks and adjust for daylight savings....I mean really then what are we doing to the linear beast that we refer to as time? Erasing a bt of it? Time wouldn't exist if we didn't exist....it's all theoretical.

Delete

UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Well now..

This is all very lovely.

But please please please post inthe thread that already exists.

Ive already linked to it so if you continue to post your thoughts in this one.. you are either dumb, lazy, or just a t*at.

smile


Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: BrandyH

Hey.....I copied that off of some other website.....it has to be true!!!...So, what happens when we turn back our clocks and adjust for daylight savings....I mean really then what are we doing to the linear beast that we refer to as time? Erasing a bt of it? Time wouldn't exist if we didn't exist....it's all theoretical.


I think either you're confusing time with our measurement and perception of time, or you're saying that the Universe only exists because we perceive it. Which is a bold claim indeed smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:all three, me biggrin



if the enire universe ended, and all that was left in existance was a watch, assuming it was in working order, would it still tell the time, even though time, space, and all the weird bits in the middle did not exist?



edit:



and yeah, i think the universe may only exist because we perceive it. what we perceive is there, what we dont usually isnt, or is, just in a different form to what we thought it was. anyway, if we didnt know there was anything outside (eg the earth was put in a box at the beginning of time), we wouldnt think that anything was out there, and thus it wouldnt exist, whether it did or not. something to do with i think therefore i am, i think.



edit again:



if the universe is two dimensional (spacial/temporal), and the spatial dimension has three possibly four sub-dimensions (length, width, depth, and hyperspace. but im not sure about the last one), could the temporal dimension also contain more dimensions? time as a cube? time as a fourdimensional hypercube?

EDITED_BY: MiG (1101910309)


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Delete

vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:do not even get me started on this people!



with multiple grad level classes on qauntum mechanics, general relativity, relativitic electromagnatism, and all that other crap, you guys are seriously going to steel entire work days from me when you bring up this sort of thing!



so, it has been said in a manner before, but basically time is the part of the 4th dimention we can see. we live in a 4 dimentional (at least - perhaps as many as 11 dimentional) universe. just like the shadow of a 3 dimentional cube is a square in 2 dimentions, the enviroment you percieve around you is a 3 dimentional shadow of 4 dimentional existance.



so if time is a shadow of a 4th dimention we do not fully comprehend, does that means the way in which time passes is fixed? no. special and general relativity give you plenty of concrete examples as to why it isn't in a rigourous mathematical way for certain situations. But what about just our perception of it - does time really pass faster or slower when we are having fun or bored. well, our perception of how fast it goes does change, and since time is only what we percieve of the 4th dimention, how can we say one perception is more accurate than another? forget about clocks, they only tell us about our perception in a way we have programmed them to - the machine is no better than its design, and that design is based off an incomplete understanding of time that forces a linear perception of it if one abides by what it says. sure there are linearly spaced events like sunrises and sunsets and we can program a mechanism it replicate that sequence, but this means little to the brain and more to the body, and even then, researchers who live in antartica for the winter in the absensce of these natural rythms for a while often fall into scheduals of 30+ hour days or sometimes ones that are completely chaotic, even with the clocks around to help themremember the natural cycle.



but no, just because we change our clocks or the way we define time, that changes nothing at all except for a little portion of our perception. and if you haven't gootten the point by now, I'll say it flat out - your incomplete perception of it doesn't mean diddly squat to the 4th dimention. whether time flys or drags or seems very linear to you doesn't change things one iota for anyone else and the way they choose to deal with living in a universe in which we only have limited dimentional access. make up any scheme you want to judge time, and as long as it is self consistant it will be as good as any other since you nor anyone else is ever really going to understand 4 dimentions.



and no - living in a 4 dimentional universe does not mean you are living in a predetermined way. time and 4 dimentions have nothing to do with choice, and neither the future nor the past are fixed. the best you can do with either is talk about probabilities of what wll or has happened. and it is only our limited perception that put more emphasis on being any more sure about the past rather than the future. In true 4 dimentions, there should be no difference between the positive axis (presumably the future, but who is to say if that is an accurate guess, no one human, that is for sure!) and the negative one (the past?). fatalism is based off the assumption that since there should be no difference between these two axis and we like to think an already determined past exists, therefore the future is already determined too. but in reality the past is not determined and is not fixed. It not only changes, but it fades into a greater and greater array of things that might could have happened the further back we get from now, just as the likelyhood of what happens in the furture gets less and less predictable the further you get from now.



Besides that - we are only dealing with a shadow of the 4th dimention. a square and a shadow of a cube are two different things, though they may occasionally look similar, and therefor I submit that the passage of time may in fact be nothing at all like actually moving forward on the positive axis of the 4th dimention, though it may resemble it in certain situations.



and so on and so forth... I gotta get back to work now.



[edit] one last thing - time may in fact be more like the shadow of ALL dimentionality higher than 3, in which case the fourth dimention would have only have something (instead of everything) to do with time. in otherwords, there may still be something like time if you lived in 4 dimentions, but you percetion of it would be different since part of it would have been transformed by your increased dimentional perception.



in the end, for humans, time is only a tool of dealing with some properties of the universe. a linear tool is helpful, but not always fully accurate. just because we use the tool in a uniform fashion does not reduce the dimentionality of the universe.

EDITED_BY: vanize (1101911655)


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:this is going to hurt. soon.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Delete

vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:doesn't it already?

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:no, not yet. i dont think i fully comprehend whats going on yet.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Delete

Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:omg, oragasm. vanize.

3 demensional shadow of a 4 demensional existance. I could repeat that to myself all day.

god thats makes things so clear. i actually wrote something about this compared demenstions colapsing. God i ahve to find that.if i find it il try to summarize it and post it on here.


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: vanize
and no - living in a 4 dimentional universe does not mean you are living in a predetermined way. time and 4 dimentions have nothing to do with choice, and neither the future nor the past are fixed. the best you can do with either is talk about probabilities of what wll or has happened. and it is only our limited perception that put more emphasis on being any more sure about the past rather than the future. In true 4 dimentions, there should be no difference between the positive axis (presumably the future, but who is to say if that is an accurate guess, no one human, that is for sure!) and the negative one (the past?). fatalism is based off the assumption that since there should be no difference between these two axis and we like to think an already determined past exists, therefore the future is already determined too. but in reality the past is not determined and is not fixed. It not only changes, but it fades into a greater and greater array of things that might could have happened the further back we get from now, just as the likelyhood of what happens in the furture gets less and less predictable the further you get from now.

Besides that - we are only dealing with a shadow of the 4th dimention. a square and a shadow of a cube are two different things, though they may occasionally look similar, and therefor I submit that the passage of time may in fact be nothing at all like actually moving forward on the positive axis of the 4th dimention, though it may resemble it in certain situations.


Except that there is a distinct difference between the future and the past - the "arrow of time" that occurs in two senses - the thermodynamic sense where entropy always remains constant or increases as time passes, and in certain sub-atomic reactions which are time-asymmetric such as the decay of the K-meson. So the future and the past aren't the same at all.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the past isn't fixed either. Could you explain further perhaps?

MiG - Multiple time dimensions have been studied, but they bring a whole host of problems - causality becomes impossible and you end up with every particle being a tachyon (faster than light particle) for instance.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:ah yes, well you want to talk about entropy and that sort of thing, then we are on to a whole other level!

but I am talking the human type of time-history, not about one way doors. time as defined by science is very methodical for sure, though it is again still a matter of perception that one way processes have anything to do with the past per se - the point if there is now evidence that situation is in such a way or a reaction has gone a certain way, there is still a vast array of possible ways it could have gotten that way by now. a concise and complete history leading up to the event is only vaguely easier to build than a concise and complete record of its future implications.

as far as the past not being fixed thing, I did that quite extensively in another thread which I will now search for...

ok, I think this is it


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:it hurts now.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: vanize
as far as the past not being fixed thing, I did that quite extensively in another thread which I will now search for...

ok, I think this is it


So we're talking about the spread of the wave function as soon as the act of observation occurs? If not, ignore me wink

Your post says that the once the measurement has occured the wave function again begins to spead out and you can't be certain of the value of the obervable at that point, which is true. But it seems to me a bit of a leap to claim that this fact means that the value of the measurement you have taken is invalidated by that fact. Just because you can't know the system's current state at a given time doesn't make the fact that you measured it to be X at time T any less true...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

Catalyst
Catalyst

member
Location: Virginia
Member Since: 27th Nov 2003
Total posts: 103
Posted:I am both stupid and lazy, and whatever the other one was....I'm saying that time exists because we perceive it.....what does a cat, or a dog, or a dragonfly think about "time"??

Delete

Burning Brain
Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones
Member Since: 9th Oct 2004
Total posts: 321
Posted:how can i take you seriously spiralx. everytime i read your posts i see that cat with what looks like a tenis ball on his head.

if you have that in a bigger size send it to me please.


but speaking of waves in a 4 demensional universe...wouldnt it amek more sense if it were to look like a helix rather than a sin wave. can you graph a 3d sin wave?


If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

Delete

UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:F*ck it.

I do try my bloody hardest sometimes....

and people even shout at me for stuff that everyone does.

angry


Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: BrandyH

I am both stupid and lazy, and whatever the other one was....I'm saying that time exists because we perceive it.....what does a cat, or a dog, or a dragonfly think about "time"??


I don't think I called you stupid or lazy...?

So... what happened before someone was able to perceive time then? Did our distant ancestor suddenly start perceiving time and before then things happened all at once?


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Burning Brain
how can i take you seriously spiralx. everytime i read your posts i see that cat with what looks like a tenis ball on his head.

if you have that in a bigger size send it to me please.


ubblol Try here...

http://etudiant.epitech.net/~bret_a/limecat/


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:"I don't think I called you stupid or lazy...?"



No...but I think they reckon I did...



no wait..



I did.



smile



Sorry.



edit due to quick posting of SpiralX: So its a lime and not a melon or a tennis ball? biggrin


Delete

Catalyst
Catalyst

member
Location: Virginia
Member Since: 27th Nov 2003
Total posts: 103
Posted:I'm saying that "time" is a label that we have created in order for us to help keep some order to our little lives. I'm saying that before someone was able to "perceive" time, then no....it did not "exist". Maybe things are happening all at once now....but we have conditioned ourselves to only concentrate on the small blip of reality that we call "our time", and have ultimately trained ourselves to grab onto events only to try and prove to ourselves that we are really here right now. We make ourselves comfortable by trying to name the nameless and stopping the unstoppable. Time is a little thing that has been developed to try and make order out of chaos.

Much Love....so what is the third thing???? After dumb and lazy, that is? biggrin


Delete

Page: 12