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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok, one for the Christians.

Perhaps they shouldnt have all those TV evangelists littering early morning television when I get home form clubbing. But, it never ceases to amaze me how these guys can go on about how they follow the teaching of Jesus, and how great Jesus is and all we need to do to find salvation is follow the word and works of Jesus. Which is fair enough, Jesus was/is a great inspiration.

But hey, then these evangelist types start quoting all this Old Testament stuff about God. Which they manipulating to suit their tainted views of how the world should be, and how people should behave. And they go on about all this creationist rubbish and how homosexuals are and abomination and all the usual narrow minded stuff.

I mean, Jesus was the son of God made man, and his teachings were spot on. Like his lessons about The Good Samaritan, The Prodigal Son, The Wedding Feast etc. etc. Jesus cared for the people. He helped the lepers, the prostitutes, the blind, and he inspired us all to be better people. But this is NOT what evangelists and fundamentalists inspire. They are self-serving and only inspire guilt, hate and prejudice.

I find this very confusing because a Christian is person who follows the teachings of Christ, not some Old Testament rubbish about a fire and brimstone God.

For example, definitions of a Christian from dictionary dot com:

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane

So, I suppose the question is how can these evangelists types justify themselves as Christians, because the dont follow Jesus' teachings in any way, shape of form?

My personal opinion is that if Jesus walked the earth today he would strike down these philistines, and kick them out of the temple.

What do you think?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:<dashes back and says>
its all metaphor anyway.
you get out of it what you look for.
those evangalists see what they want to see.
we see what we want to see.
its all about perception
(dont you see?)
good and bad only exist as dualities. its our perception of something that determines whether we "think" its good or bad.
therefore, everything simply IS.
<puff>
<dashes back>


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:(someones been on the drugs)



btw this is discussion not insanity thread

EDITED_BY: Mr Majestik (1105358756)


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Yeah that was a little offtopic for my liking.



I'm eternally sorry if this has been mentioned already, but did anyone see the documentary "who wrote the bible?" broadcast on Christmas Day (a very respectable move by Channel 4), in which experts carbon dated monuments referred to in the bible and proved they were not around in the time of Jesus, when he is supposed to have had something to do with them? There was a hell of a lot more to it, a large section on how the old testament was written by 5 different groups and that moses couldn't possible have written them all, as they refer to his own death (pretty obvious, then) and other things I can't really remember now.



You could describe the bible as non-fiction but even non-fiction can be jarringly inaccurate and biased. Which the bible seems to me, and many other non-christians. Not to mention the various translations which basically edit the original texts.



I fail to see how something written 2000 years ago or more can possibly be defended as a document still meant to be taken literally. You could say that about the 10 commandments maybe, or possibly even parts of the old testament (although personally I could not accept that). But the entire text, including many contradictory accounts and ideals... that's just an inability or an unwillingness to accept the evidence of one's own mind.



Please note my opinions refer to the bible in its modern translation and people who believe every word of it is sacred and should be lived by. I really hate the whole idea of people learning the whole book, word for word, and being able to quote every single verse of it to justify their every action. Devote your life to something more meaningful - you can always just READ it when you need to refer to it. [/rant]

EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1105363373)


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:Okay, i have just read the whole thread start to finish... i wish i'd joined up earlier.
For starters, Jesus was not always "nice" as many seem to think. Turning a market place upside down and publicly calling the pharisees "a brood of vipers" is not a stereotypical "nice guy" thing to do! He showed compassion and love to people who were sincere, but to those twisting/abusing God's laws for their own benefit(pharisees) or making a mockery of God(market place vendors) He attacked righteosly, as He was the Son of God
Next point.
I do not own or wear a cross. Many do, tho, not usually as a idol or object of worship, but as a sign to show that they are christans. Many churches (Catholic and otherwise) have large monuments to "Saint Peter" or "Mother Mary", and I regard that as idolotry, just because Mary, the disciples and old testament figures were, all else aside, human.
They were born a natural birth, and at some point died.
And their bodies stayed dead.
I am not discounting what they did, Mary was a true servant of God, and there's plenty to learn from that.
But she is dead. So's Peter. Building shrines or praying to them aint gonna help.
Something else.
The plural form of God used at the start of the bible refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No goddess implied. You could say that if God is spirit, then how can He defined by gender? I don't know. But why did He make man first? Does it really matter anyway?
The Bible is the Book of Life, not the book of science. This goes some way to explaining why exact dates are not usually listed. Hit up www.answersingenesis.org for some....answers, I guess.
As for TV evangelists, most (there were no names named, so I'm not sure who your actually talking about) preach what they preach because thats what the Bible says.
Those who preach that you will be saved AFTER you make a donation/buy my $40 book/CD/DVD will come unstuck when they finally meet Jesus and find out "nice Jesus" sends them to hell...
I am a Christian who believes that God's word is truth, and absolutely infallible.
I also know of science teacher (at uni level) who will fail student for baseing answers on carbon dating reports.
Sorry bout the legnth!


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Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:Also sorry 'bout the terrible grammer in the second last sentence!

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:why did god make adam first? well, only one part of genisis says that eve was created out of adam's rib (gen 2.21), however, gnostics will accurately point out that Genisis 1.26-27 says that god created the first human pair, male and female, in his own image.

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted:carbon dating is worthless in this case since original documents no longer exist, especially for the old testiment. what we have is handwritten copies of handwritten copies, most of which were annotated by subsequent scribes to include updated information (like the death of moses for example) even though the scribe still credited the orginal author. as for the old testiment - forget about orginal documents penned by the original author - not possible, they have not existed for more than a millinea at least due to the inevitable deterioration they experience under even the best of care - just look at what a mess the US declaration of independance is, in that is 10 times newer and has recieved the best of care throughout the majority of its existance.

Actually the dead sea scrolls/Nag Hammadi documents are among the few orginal documents that themselves date from their time of origin (100-140 AD or so) and from the time of early christianity, despite (actually exactly because) they were declared hertical by the early church. That they survived from the time they were declared hertical until the late 1940s stashed in an earthenwar jar hidden under a rock in the middle of the desert only to be discovered by a ignorant villager embarking on a blood fued is nothing short of a miracle (and this same man admitted that his mother burnt perhaps as much as half of the documents in their fireplace for fuel in the few weeks between his discovering them and taking them to someone to see if he might be able to get some cash for them!!!). While probably not THE orginals, they were certainly very closely related copies and do carbon date to around the time of their supposed origin. Unfortunately these are gnostic texts, and they had a reputation for being allegorical and not saying anything directly. Even so, the surviving documents tell us far more about early christiandom than than anything else (especially the new testiment, which purposely supressed all dissenting points of view and glorifies only one of the many view of christ that existed 300 years after the start of it all - a long time to allow gross misinterpretation of the orginal intent - imagine, for example, the government of the united states - ~230 years old, still based off original documents, but having almost nothing in common with the original version).

It is vaguely suspicious (though understandable due to the fragile nature of papyrus) that original documents of the gospels allowed into the new testiment are no longer in existance (to my knowledge - could be wrong in this, I have looked for the answer but have only found vagueness), but rather only copies of them made starting around the same time as the Council of Nicea in 325 and after, these becoming the canonical scriptures, all other being (violently) regarded as hertical.

and contrary to my previous statements in this thread, it does seem clear to me now (after much reading) that certain factions of christianity considered christ to be the literal son of god even by 100 AD (especailly the heavily pagan influenced, non-jewish origin sects, in congruance with the osiris/dyonesis/jesus godman mythos), perhaps even earlier (I suspect this has a lot to do with Paul, who as I mentioned earlier, was really a complete outsider to the who jesus thing). However, this was hotly debated until the Council of Nicea, which is when it was definitely decided he was the son of god (almost 300 years after he died), despite the protest of many large factions of christianity - most of of these objectors were eventually put to death over the next 1000 years - perhaps as many as 10 million by inquisitions alone (note that most of those were women) and many times that by crusades.

aside: Did you know far more "heritic" christians were killed by christian crusaders than anyone else? Entire Europeans cities leveled with no survivors and no defense just because their local version of christianity threatened someones power base. The more I read, the more I see people like Hitler and Stalin were really only working from precidents set by the early/middle roman catholic church. Harsh words I know, but the only real difference I see is that the catholic church prevailed and got to cover their tracks. I'd like to add that, in my opinion, the roman catholic church is considerably better behaved these days.

but I digress. the point to make before I distracted myself is that making christ the literal son of god was really only necissary to consolidate the power of the church and make christianity a religion in which you could only find salvation thru the church, and not via their own exploration and thought. I beleive this is completely contrary to what christ was trying to do (in this regard, I think the gnostics had it right). I think christ was trying to say (if he even existed, which I am increasing dubious about) was that the jewish church was broken because it was only about the church and that you should find yourself to find god. But this doesn't suit a church power structure (rather it weakens it considerably), and it is clear that emporer constantine didn't give a crap about chistian faith but rather needed to consolidate power and he did this via finding the power base in chritianity and brokering a deal with it by allowing it to become legal if they did certain things to consolidate their power over all christians and help him make that power searve the station of the roman emporer. Why do you think it is called the Roman catholic church - because it was bought and paid for by the roman empire - and it was a quite a deal for that empire, because it staved off the fall of that empire for another couple centuries. And unlike popular thought, Constantine did not convert to christiandom when he made it legal, but rather waited till he was on his deathbed to do so - so that he would still be able to commit all the attrocities necissary to be emporer and still be saved and forgiven of his sins just before dying.

also note there are two versions of the new testiment from different translations of the gospels into latin (I presume), and countless translations of those adding further interpretations (it is very difficult to accurately translate from old languages to new, as some words have broad meanings and others have meaning that have drifted wildly in the course of thousands of years, making accurate translation from original texts an abstract art at best). So the two main versions of the new testiment are the protestant and catholic ones, the protestant one being an greatly edited version (by Luther) of another translation (not the one used by catholics) of the the gospels.

One last point I wish to make - pagan symbology is rife within christianity - especially the mary and jesus paintings, the halos, the crosses (all be it modified slightly to have a longer stem instead of 4 equal lengths) and some other things (which I am less confident about for now, so I will not mention).

ok, I have completely forgotten what I was on about by now, so I'll stop there.


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Jesus (ahem)!

Nice post biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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_khan_
_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Member Since: 17th Nov 2004
Total posts: 768
Posted:Written by: Josh's state of intrest


I am not discounting what they did, Mary was a true servant of God, and there's plenty to learn from that.
But she is dead.



What about the Annunciation? Mary was raised, body and soul, into Heaven. According to Catholic teachings anyway (I was raised Catholic).


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Great thesis vanize. Im not sure I agree that JC didnt exist, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said: Written by:
I think christ was trying to say (if he even existed, which I am increasing dubious about) was that the jewish church was broken because it was only about the church and that you should find yourself to find god.



To put that into perspective: The church is broken, and people should find themselves in God.

I agree nearly_all_gone, I think its important to examine the bible in relation to its historical context, and many methods including carbon dating are used. I watched a similarly enlightening documentary called It Aint Necessarily So. This documentary starts by asking the question, what did Jeremiah mean when he denounced the "Torah" as "lies from the false pen of scribes"? Jeremiah 8:8 (link above).

I doubt the bible was ever meant to be taken literally, and imho thats where all these evangelists get it wrong. They appear to have a narrow education, probably no Latin or Greek, and appear to disregard any archeological evidence relating to historical inaccuracies in bible. And, I suppose thats where the problem starts. Protecting investments and wealth. Luther had a good point, 95 in fact. I mean the Church selling tickets to heaven is a bit too entrepreneurial.

Speaking of travesties of nature, its extremely obvious that the female deity has been missing from the mainstream religions for quite a while now. The consequences are obvious; you just have to look at the number of pedophiles that Christian religions have supported, both now and in the past. People would have to acknowledge that the church drove out women; tens of thousands of women were burnt at the stake, for what?

Now Josh, when you say I am a Christian who believes that God's word is truth, and absolutely infallible. Do you mean God's truth as written in the bible? Because you also conclude with The Bible is the Book of Life, not the book of science.

The bible, as already stated, was written by men, not God. And there is no question that the old testament if full of parables and esoteric meanings. The new testaments have also been selected to show a one sided story that supports the Church of Rome.

My other problem with evangelist is if they believe in creationism, then they dont have any appreciation of the natural world God created. God works through nature and denying the natural process goes against God. Anyhow, the use of DNA technology is dispersing the myth of creationism.

Most of us have read the The Da Vinci Code and its a good book to discuss because it presents an alternative hypothesis; one that I feel provides some missing links. We can get some relevant passages from the Answers in Genesis link you provided. Dont worry if you havent read the book, the author of the critique hasnt either. The Da Vinci Code: Secret hidden truth? A best seller rewrites the truth about the Bible by Alex Williams.

Written by:
Sir Leigh Teabing says, To fully understand the Grail, we must first understand the Bible The Bible did not arrive by fax from heaven [it] is a product of man not God and it has evolved through countless translations, additions and revisions. History never had a definitive version of the book. Jesus Christ was a historical figure of staggering influence his life was recorded by thousands of followers more than eighty gospels were considered for the New Testament Who chose which gospels to include? The Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine.



While this passage is discredited, there is an element of truth that is difficult to deny.

Following the link to Not InDavincible we get another Review and Critique of The DaVinci Code.

Written by:
The quest for the Holy Grail in The DaVinci Code ends up being the search for Mary Magdalenes tomb, in which are interred secret documents whose contents will wreck Christianity as we know it. These documents contain the true gospelone whose foundation is the feminized divine known in goddess worship. If revealed to the world, these recovered truths will pave the way for us to return to a more enlightened spirituality centered on this divine feminine. In fact, however, the idea that religion was originally matriarchal (female centered) and then was changed to be patriarchal (male centered) by the Jews and perpetuated by later Christians is simply NOT true. There is no evidence that any significant religious movement, including early Christianity, had dominant female deities they were always linked to their male counterparts, and usually in a subservient role.



Now this critique is just rubbish. The first religions were matriarchal, and were changed to be patriarchal religions by the Jews and perpetuated by later Christians. Apart from all the historic evidence indicating that the Christians obliterated female deities, there is the moral evidence. An example of the distortion this has caused can be seen by the large number of pedophiles that Christian religions have supported. Clearly we need to regain balance, and move to a more enlightened spirituality centered on the divine feminine.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Josh's state of intrest
newbie
Location: Victoria Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 9
Posted:Do you honestly believe a bible believing and obeying person (male, female, whatever) could stand by and watch as children were molested (which God abhors) ?
I never said all church leaders or followers were obeying God. I am horrified when i hear that these people, call them pharisees to make a point, were allowed to continue as priests or figures of authority within 1000 miles of any child!
It makes me sick in my stomach!
I thank God that these offendors are being (apparently, at least) weeded out.

I agree with everything Luther said. No-one can sell tickets to heaven

Yes, the bible is not the book of science. God did not list DNA reports, and did not often list exact locations. I am currently unaware of ant infallibe scientific facts that counter what the bible says. My inbox is always open...

Stone, you missed the point. The bible was written by men inspired by God. How else would so many testimonies and propheseys line up? They were written hundreds of years apart! And as for constantine collating the bible... not so sure about that...

The bible has instructions for priests...(some versions substitute bishops for overseeers)

Written by:
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.



Funnily enough, this is not taught at catholic churches. I'm not even sure its in a Pope-approved bible.

I am only aware of Elijah and Jesus being taken in body to heaven.

Peace out, dudes!


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Stone
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Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Josh, perhaps you missed my point, the bible was written by men. The inspired by God bit is pure conjecture. Imo the only reason that the testimonies and prophecies line up is good editing. As you point out, if the bible instructions for the priests are not in the catholic bible, then that only strengthens the case against the church of Rome.

Dont you think its a little odd that the all common religions are dominated by men? Why have women no significant roles in these churches? Where's the balance?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:because when they were created/ rose to prominance they were in a male dominated world

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

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Stone
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Posted:Yes Mr Majestik, nice try. A male dominated world u say.

Now, how did that come about I wonder?

Perhaps through organised suppression?
Starting with that story in the garden when a serpent tempts eve. Then, there are more vivid examples, like the Inquisition when over 100, 000 women were killed (85% of all killed were women).


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:actually, if you combine all inquisitions over the span of a thousand years or so, perhaps as many as 10,000,000 women we killed (some sources say at least a million are confirmable, others say 10 million is probably closer to the real number) - basically all of them for having an opinion. women shouldn't have opinions you know - the church says so and you used to be able to get the church to kill them if they were strong willed, defiant, or whatever.



I wonder how many husbands, not having the option of divorce, told an inquision his wife was a witch?


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted:note that 10 million christian women killed by inquisions pretty much equals (more or less) the figures for all casualties from the crusades, christian and non-christian.



christianity is (or was anyway) much harsher to christians than it is to any one else. 'heritics' are much more dangerous than out and out enemies. women are apparently a particualry large threat to the catholic church.


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
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Posted:actually, anyone interested in this thread may be interested in this website:

rejection of pascal's wager


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Josh's state of intrest
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Location: Victoria Australia
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Posted:"Heritic women" were killed by the catholic church for a variety of reasons, from teaching their children the ten commandments in a language other than latin (which was God's only language apparently) to being carasmatic, protestant based christians who refused to take mass, as they could not believe a biscuit could change into the body of Christ (the same body which was taken to heaven I presume) as they ate it.
Please stop refering to the catholic church as christians, that would be swell.
The christians were usually the ones being burned.
My church has just as many female leaders as male. This was not planned for in the intrest of equal rights, its just the way it turned out.

There is nothing in the bible that is demeaning to all females.
If God wanted nothing to do with females, He would've dropped Jesus into the manger from heaven. This would not been a particually big ask for the creator of the universe!

Stone, study the foundations of the bible. I don't mean do a quick google search either. If the bible were not protected by God, it would have been destroyed a thousand times before. Read it. Ask God to help you understand it. He won't let you down.

Still waiting for a bible disproving fact...


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:there is a book titled Jesus Freaks which is basically a collection of short stories about people who were Persecuted and killed for their faith. at the time many of these people were labeled heritics but now are seen as christians who were loyal to god.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:sorry, catholics are christians too. but point taken that while all catholics are christians, only some christians are catholics.

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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:Written by: Mr Majestik

there is a book titled Jesus Freaks which is basically a collection of short stories about people who were Persecuted and killed for their faith. at the time many of these people were labeled heritics but now are seen as christians who were loyal to god.



yeah, I think it is pretty clear what would happen to christ had he appeared anytime after 300 AD or so - he would have been eliminated by the catholic church ASAP. Fair chance he still would be by some christian faction or other if you ask me.


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Mr Majestik
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Posted:arrg!, a girl i know (who was baptised as a catholic) couldn't understand that point and it drove me insane!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

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Josh's state of intrest
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Location: Victoria Australia
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Posted:Maybe I need a new definition.... anyways.
I have a slight problem with your last point, vanize, cos things were the way they were because Jesus had already came. Constantine wouldn't have "legalized" christianity (birthing catholisim) cause there wouldn't have been any christians!
Perhaps if Jesus (or someone claiming to be Him) returned 150 years after His birth whilst "christians" were more actively being prosecuted by the Romans, then, yeah, they would have got Him. Disregarding divine intervention, that is.

Sorry about dragging this out by taking forever to reply and all....


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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:what I was saying is if the second coming of christ had come say, anywhere between say 350 AD and 1500 AD, he would have been burned at the stake for being a heritic.

they'd probably find a more politcally correct way to neutralise him these days.


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Mr Majestik
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Posted:i just finished reading The Davinci Code(took me all of two days) and i could use some help with what exactly is true and what isnt

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

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Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:well, most everything about mary magdelene and jesus being married is wild speculation - it comes from a book by two historians (forget names just now) and is pretty soundly regected by the rest of the historical and theological community.

some percentage of the holy grail really being the San Greal (holy blood) and mary madelene possibly having escaped to egypt and eventually france is thought to have some validity by some historians and a few theologians. the claim that the Marovian (sp?) dynasty of france is descended from jesus is pretty well dismissed by most except the two authors noted above. that is based off some weird documents that appeared in the french national library a few decades ago - it being those same documents which potend to reveal a modern day "priory of Scion" and the lineage of grand master's quoted in the book the da vinci code. probably complete bunk.

there was a priory of scion associated with the Templar knights (who started as 9 knights supposedly defending pilgrims in the holy land for the first 9 years - though no one really saw they did much defending of anything). not much is known about it and it is not thought to have survived past the 1600's.

regarding the templars - most of what he said about them specifically is true, except that there were no more than 9 for the first 9 years, and they probably did not do much at the site of the ruins of the temple of solomon. but that is not clear since the only history of the templar's early years was not written until 50 years after their start, and that by someone opposed to them. In the end, they had a couple hundred year run as being a semi-autonmous military and financial force (they were basically the world's first international bankers for example), answering only to the pope. When a king of france envied their wealth and had a pope in his pocket as well, he arranged for their demise on the fatefull friday the 13th referred to in the book (yes, the original friday the 13th). apparently only a fraction of the templars were actually catured, but their organization was effectly beheaded as most the key members were captured. most of them were tortured for confessions (which were prewritten and they only were compelled to repeat and were tortured till they did so - confessions including idol worship and homosexual cermonies). The rank and file templars were as presented - poor knights with an oath to defend christianity. It does appear that there may have been something else going on at the higher levels.

once the teplars were disbanded, they survived in a way as the free masons, and though the connection is clear, it is not well explained. Free masons were the ones primarily responsible for building thhe medievil cathedrals, and they did include some rather non-orthodox stuff into catholic contructions. modern day free masons have been reinterpreted so many times, that one can not say they really have anything to do with templars at all, though some of the honoraries of some of the free mason sects still carry some of the same honorifics and such.

the so called dead sea scrolls do mention Jesus kissing mary magdelen on the mouth, and it is clear that the name of mary magdelen was the subject of a deliberate smear campaign for more than 1500 years. the catholic church did actually (and very quietly) make an announcement that the scriptures do not at all support the view that mary magdelene was a prositute. she probably did come from a wealthy background, but there is absolutely no evidence what so ever to connect her with any "royal" jewish family. It is pretty clear that Peter really and truely hated her. John seemed to be one of her allies though. It may be that she was as much one of Jesus' apostles as they were, but there is only enough real evidence to suggest this but by no mean prove it or even make a strong case for it. It is also Possible that Mary Magdelene was from a different place altogether, and some even suggest she was a forigner, not jewish, and perhaps even black skinned.

and while it is nice to think leonardo was in on some anti-catholic church thing, and he was in fact a trouble maker theologically speaking, the oddness of his paintings does not suggest anything like an involvement in a secret society. and the person sitting next to jesus in the "last supper" painting is either John, or john was completely left out of the painting. John was known to be quite young and beardless, and also the most favored of the desciples (the male ones anyway...). John should not be left out of such a painting, his sitting next to Jesus is appropriate, and there are in fact only 12 others in the painting besides Jesus. The Orginal fresco is so worn that it is impossible to tell if the person is supposed to be male or female, and da vinci had a habit of making young men look decidedly feminine. all of the artist pre-painting scetches are pretty clear that this figure is male though. ad in the orginal it is hard to really interprete Peter's hand placement as threateneing - rather, it almost looks like he has his hand on John's should in a comforting manner. The extra hand with the knife is odd, but has nothing to do with any possible threat to the John/Mary figure.

what else would you like to know about?


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Wonder Monkey
Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 121
Posted:Just adding my tuppence. smile

Im right in thinking that Christ/the son came down as a final act, and from there on in Man has been on our own to find God through knowing christ?

If so, God couldnt have protected the bible.

If God did , then i'd have to ask the omnipotent one why he let millions die purely through having faith in him (with religion being one of the key fighting triggers in mans history). Why he hasnt acted to drown all the heretical religions that now have huge followings all over the world, thus solving an eternal conundrum of which religion is 'right' when they all claim to be the 'one'?!?

It doesnt seem very clever to protect a book but not to protect a living/breathing person/group of peoples on a regualr basis through physical acts/miracles - thus reaffirming faith in, not only an all powerful God, but a compassionate one aswell? Rather than telling people to 'go read a book', how about showing people WHY they should believe, rather than telling them to.

If he was well up for miracles a couple of thousand years ago, why not now?

Why does an omnipotent God need a book to enable people to know him if we are all capable of getting to know him individually anyway?

There is no 'disproving' of the bible, just as there is no 'proving'.

I find it impossible to except the argument that todays problems are casued by the corruption of man yet it is this same 'man' who constructed the bible. Simply saying the bible is the word of god and uncorruptable is far far far too convenient when you are asking poepl to devote their whole life outlook to following that path. Its all part of the control mechanism inherent in religions to stop you questioning and just 'accept'. It gives the illusion of solving all current problems with the promise of eternal life. The ultimate carrot if ever there was one!!!!!!! And therein lies the clues for religion, and God, being engineered by Man.

Why would an omnipotent god provide freewill with strings attached without recognising the paradox when put into practise. Why would an omnipotent God need the fear of hell (another christian construct if I recall correctlty, am i right in thinking there is no deinition of heaven and hell in judiasm?) to encourage obedience, if at the same time he wants us to use our freewill. How can it be a sin to deny something when you have no reason not to deny it - other than what PEOPLE and a book TELL you?

All these paradoxies and strings attahced all serve as 'proof' to me that the bible is NOT the word of God.

I reckon if God does exist he's looking at us, weeping, head in hands muttering, over and over , all that sh!T on the cross just so people can write a flamin book and claim that is the only way to know me...I mean, why do you think I came down to walk among you? Talk about missing the point...'

And as for being weary of those who quote the bible as tehy are actign as the servants of satan' - yeah - a whole loada faith in how powerful your word is then God, that you wont let it stand up to scrutiny...

I apologise Josh, as I appreciate that I may not have put all the above too diplomatically - I cant apologies for any offence caused, but can apologise for the tone in which that offence was laid down. Religion is somethin I both love and loathe debating. Its fascinating, but at the same time very frustrating!

smile


My Mummy Says Im Special

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:actually, it is quite easy to disprove many things in the bible, but all you have to do then is say that the stories are all alegorical - and then there is nothing to prove or disprove, as that is the nature of alegory. you could even take it a step further and say that faith is even meant to be allegorical and that you really don't have to beleive at all. You can't prove or disprove that either - and is therefor just as valid as anything else you can't prove or disprove.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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dafunkymahn
member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2005
Total posts: 54
Posted:Stone, I am a philosophy student and also an apologetic so I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. I will not claim that they are the 100% correct answer. And I shall comment on the other five pages at a later time.

Are TV evangelists Christians? I do not know. Of what TV evangelist are you speaking? Has anyone asked them? Has anyone asked them how their personal walk with Christ is? You have to get to know the people you are speaking of before can establish if they are or are not a Christian.

What does Christianity have to do with the Old Testament? Everything. Without the Old Testament, you would have no account of God before Christ. You would have no prophesies concerning Christ therefore you would have nothing to decide weather or not Jesus was or is the son of God. Simply put, without a past, you can not have a present or a future.

What did Jesus say about the damning of homosexuality, do you know? Can you quote the chapter and verse where Jesus said that homosexuality was a good thing.

I have a question for you, why do you feel the need to attack Christians based on their opinion of homosexuality? Are there not other people who feel homosexuality as wrong that are not Christians? What is your bias?


Okay so I lied and did read a bit more, if Jesus came for the first time during this day of age, why would he see crosses everywhere? The cross became a Christian symbol because of Jesus, so it stands to say that if he came now, there would not be any crosses, or multitudes of Churches, or even Christians for that matter.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Another important cause for many poor people to be burnt as heretics was the disease St Anthony's fire cause by contaminated rye bread.



Josh, I still haven't had time to study the bible. I think all those sermons I received as a kid were enough to put me off ever wanting to study it as such. That's fair enough, Christians are followers of Christ, and we got a bit sidetracked with the Church of Rome. No one is trying to disprove the existence of the bible. Though, I was rather surprised to find out that the bible is historically inaccurate. Which I must admit leads me to question its authenticity.



On the contrary, I think there are many places in the bible that demote females, starting in Genesis. I never said God wanted nothing to do with females; that almost certainly came from men. Though, the story of the Immaculate Conception is in many ways the equivalent of dropped Jesus into the manger from heaven, and imo demotes females.



dafunkymhan, the TV evangelists call themselves Christians, and as such they are judged. While I'm not familiar with the Jewish faith, I'm told they are still waiting for the saviour. So are all those prophecies from the OT that accurate?



I would be surprised if Jesus said anything damning about homosexuality. Most of that homophonic rubbish comes from the OT, and is perpetuated by bigots. The reason I feel the need to challenge Christians based on their opinion of homosexuality is because real Christians would follow the examples Christ as in the stories of the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son, and they would not condem homosexuals.



It's that simple.



smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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