• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Knoxious
GOLD Member since Feb 2002

.
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 420
Posted:I've been thinking about it as I've been trying to eliminate as many links from my poi to try to take out any points of weakness...

...are swivels needed in fire poi or ropes?

I guess using cable without swivels would make buzzsaws a bit more clumsy and obviously if you have tails on practice poi they are needed, but are they needed for fire poi?

any thoughts?


Delete Topic

Analemma


Analemma

enthusiast
Location: West LA

Total posts: 384
Posted:Good quesion. I played without swivels for a year (with a fine dog-chain which can twist in itself a bit) and now got a good set (thx to Oud) with high quality (ball bearing) swivels. Would say that there is a slight better feeling with the ones with swivels (eg when doing isolations, buzzsaws), but I think not many could tell the difference .
So my conclusion: Not really necessary but a nice add on....

Looking forward to hear more oppinions

andy


To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .

Delete

mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:knox, i would say some ort of swivel is neded yes, otherwise wire would jst twist and distort surly
my ropes use chain (metal loop chain) fo my ropes, but its all good, they dont mess up, and sone give me a problem....


but i can see the point of swivels, i have played iwth poi that have none, and found that they are a lil more harder to control, esp once you get into the more advanced tricks which would require good plane control and changing

maybe its just me, but i would say in throryyou neeed them, but its down you what you feel like...


Step (el-nombrie)

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:they are not strictly neccisary, but the induced twist from not having them will create a noticable torque. it not only feels cleaner to have a swivel of some type, but you remove most of the the torque acting on your poi and therefor your planes really will be cleaner



torque is the kind of force that exherts itself as a "cross product" instead of a "dot product", ie, at right angles to the things inducing the torque instead of along the same direction. this means that the resulting force actually points out of the plane you are spnning in, and this causes your planes to become "unclean" uness you are actively compensating. So that explains while spinning with swivels feels cleaner - because you don't have to constantly apply counter-torque while you spin.



if you use ball chain, each link is effectivly a built in swivel, so torque along the chain only has to be transimitted a very small distance (less than a cm) before it is removed, which is why ballchain feels so smooth to spin with. Having one swivel with normal chain removes the vast majority of the torque, and having a second swivel at the other end takes out most of the remainder, so spinning with a double swivel setup is about 90 or 95% as clean as spinning with ballchain.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Use ball chain

smile

Or is that just putting in more links?

umm


Delete

mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:surely that would juet be adding more links in!

Step (el-nombrie)

Delete

UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Thats what I realised after wanting to sound like a smart ass.

smile


Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:nah - i think by 'links' dave meant 'unnecessary links between things' or even 'unecessary components'.

with ball chain you need just two links: handle-chain and chain-wick.

with normal oval link you have up to twice that amount with two extra components as swivels are required between chain and handle and possibly between chain and wick.

if you use quicklinks then the swivels temselves are often the weakest part of a poi.

i thinks that's what was being got at.

but vanize already said everything helpful that i can think of smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:So was my suggestion a good one?

Im all confused now...

Cole..You confuse me.

smile


Delete

FirePhoenix


newbie
Location: Mansfield, Notts, UK

Total posts: 9
Posted:I think they're useful for the torque reason mentioned above. It's not too noticeable though.

As a sidenote though, I've saved quite a bit of cash cause all I have to do is take off the clip and swivel and put it onto a different chain. I dont need to buy another 4 poi heads for my meteor and short poi - essential when you're as skint as I am tongue


Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Unsaturated Carpets Of Freedom


So was my suggestion a good one?



Im all confused now...



Cole..You confuse me.



smile





depends really - it is a good one if you just want the best, non-twisting poi possible.

but i'm not sure its that great if what you're looking for is the most sturdy poi you can possibly make.



i reckon ball chain is the best stuff for hobby swingers like myself as it produces lovely flat planes and it makes intentional tangle type moves feel (and sound) beautiful.



however, the chain is only rated to take 120lbs whereas the swivels sold here on hop are rated to 600lbs and quicklinks at around 350lbs.

i really don't like the type a couplings at all - unless you weld them shut they look only slightly less weak than splitrings do...



like a good boy, i check my equipment before every burn and haven't ever had a problem but i am a very occasional fire spinner - if you use this stuff every day, you want some serious reliability and to be blunt, i doubt the reliability of both the type a couplings and the ball chain itself (though i must admit, this is more down to caution or even superstition on my part than it is down to experience).



so overall, i reckon twisted oval links with two heavy duty swivels and quicklinks for all connections is the strongest and safest option (if you want to take into account the benefits of swivels).


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:ColemanColemanColeman!

Where are my pants?

smile


Delete

Knoxious
GOLD Member since Feb 2002

.
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 420
Posted:Cool...Vanize you've thought about this a little I see....and there I was thinking I was just spinning crap smile

Yeah, I meant weak points in the construction...for durability and safety. Had a head fly away whilst having a spin the other night... t'was on the beach which was fine but it took me aaaaages to find it, being night time.

It wasn't he swivel that broke...but it just got me thinking really...

nice one for the thoughts smile


Delete

oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:personally, there nil swiveling bits on my poi, they are very homemade... and i have no problems with the lack of swiveling... the only time i notice it is if im doing hyperloops the chain twists up, but to stop this happening you just turn around and it untwists the other way.
so my opinion is you dont need swivels. but since the poi mentioned above are the only fire poi ive ever really used, i might not know what im missing. smile


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:Knoxious, if you are breaking your poi your spinning style is not condusive to swivels. I use welded link chain with no swivels. Granted my poi are long, but I don't have any problems with torque. Since I don't use any swivels, my perspective may be biast, but I don't have any problems. I have broken through dog chain and brass link swivels. I attribute the breaks to my spinning style and I use huge heavy wicks. If you decide to use ball chain, replace it regularly, but I don't suggest ball chain for you. biggrin

Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:I have welded link chain with no swivels for my fire poi and I havn't had a problem. Then again my poi are long and the chain is usually wrapped around my hand once when spinning normal. Then I can switch during moves from short too really long. I guess it all depends on style.

Peace, Love, Circles

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:I ahve welded link chains, with 500lb spinners at the top only. I find that when shortening up with my big cathedrals and doing buttefly buzzsaw for eg there is a torque that must be compensated for. the heads start to spin and it looks kinda cool actually but I'd like spinners at the bottom too but I'm afraid of breakage.

At a festival once I saw a dude break a poi and said poi hit another guy in the face..lucky he was 'in the mood' cuz he took it fullon and mightve been blinded / bashed. I dont want my poi to do that, so I'm afraid of putting spinners at the bottom where the heat is, especially on heavy heads. Any thoughts on this issue?

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:As a fairly crud spinner I don't do buzzsaws or hyperloops, so I find my dogchauns perfectly fine without a swivel. However, I do notice the extra twist in the handle which is a bit annoying. But not too bad. If I do a stall I find it generally sorts itself out to some extent.

Interesting thread! smile


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

Delete

Knoxious
GOLD Member since Feb 2002

.
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 420
Posted:Yo Cody...as i said it wasn't the swivel that broke..it was a (gasp) split ring...the un-condusiveness was my crap airwraps with big cathedrals.
I'll be doing the quicklink thing as per my ropes from now on...


Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Note that any hardware rated for, say 600 pound (like the swivels sold on HoP), will not bear that load when heated with fire, you can count on perhaps 1/2 that amount for brass when they are hot, and if you are rough on your equipment while it is hot, then heat fatigue will bring that figure down even further. Even large welded link chain can fail from heat fatigue. So, it is best not to put swivels at the wick end, and always check your equipment before spinning!



Ballchain does need to be replaced on a regular basis when used with fire and needs to be watched a little more closely than sturdier chain, but it is generally well worth the extra inconvenience in my opinion. but this is definitely an opinion thing. Type A couplings are also a bit of pain, but I find that if you really crimp them down, they aren't much of a hassle. Another thing to check before a spin, but it takes all of an extra half second each to look at them.



Also, I have seen 20 gauge stainless steel ballchain used on REALLY heavy wicks and it stands up to it really well even though the owner is very rough with them. And 20 gauge is still lighter than most welded link chain (another advantage of ballchain).



never had ballchain fail when used properly on non-fire poi - even 10 gauge brass endures practice poi, glow sticks, and LED lights well for years and years.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
Posted:Written by:
never had ballchain fail when used properly on non-fire poi - even 10 gauge brass endures practice poi, glow sticks, and LED lights well for years and years.



Better make that non-aluminum ball chain. I know you've seen the blue coated aluminum stuff give way really easily on your practice poi.


Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:good point - aluminum ballchain is decorative only!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [swivel* necessary] we found the following similar topics.
1. Learn > How to make your own gear > Fire Poi > Where should the swivels go? *help/resource where to put the swivels a  some prefer swivels at the  ball...
2. Learn > Guides > Componentry > Swivel Maintenance *help/resource if you ever find your swivel from hop does not run this smooth...
3. Forums > Swivel Splitrings [1 reply]
4. Forums > Wind up, swivels, and chain types.... [4 replies]
5. Forums > My Swivels [15 replies]

     Show more..