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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:ello,

ok, you know in buzzsaw you hands make little circling motions in the direction of the spin?

well, do them backwards and make them a bit bigger, so in a forwrads buzzsaw your hands are circling backwards.

this makes the poi cross isolation style, either twice or 4 times a circle depending on how fast you are anti-spinning in relation to the poi.

feels and looks a bit like an isolation, but its not, more like a meshed anti-apin flower on the invert plane.

T wave


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:hmmm. Can you do anti-spin buzzsaw fountains? I tried, but doing windmills above my head level, but always in front of it was very hard.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:i used to think an anti-spin buzz fountain was one that went the wrong way, so up on the forwrads side and down on the backwards, but this isnt anti-spin, cos your hands move in the same direction as the poi (they just transition on the inside rather than the outside of the spin)

to do a real anti-spin buzz fountain you would need to be moving the hands in the opposite direction (as explained above) and make this move changes sides top and bottom.

T wave


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:I think I'll stick with the fake anti-spin buzzsaw fountain and do it isolated...

If I can...

smile


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"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:I dunno bout anyone else but when I do buzzsaws, my hands stay pretty still and only slightly move up and down. And how do you spin the heads forward and your hands backward when speaking of a single circle? You would basically have to be doing an isolated butterfly with each poi with the chain acting as a center point which is, to my knowlege, impossible. I dont think real anti-spin buzzsaws are possible because of how they're defined. Im not exactly sure what youre doing but I dont think its really an anti-spin buzzsaw. Might look like one but I dunno. This just doesnt sound right to me.

I still agree with MCP on the anti-spin buzzsaw fountain thing. By definition, that IS an anti-spin buzzsaw fountain.


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:ok.

icon. I dont know about you but, when i learned tyhe buzzsaw, making little circles with my hands was how i made it stay on plane, shure the movements get smaller and smaller as you get better then bigger as you begin to isolate (thease days i find it hard to do a buzzsaw without isolating...) but your hands do move round in circles following the poi. if you think your hands are totally fixed, ask where the energy is comming from to keep the poi moving. and your mistaken that its one circle, its two circles offset by 180 degrees in relativly the same space.

lets roll out the definition of anti -spin and check it. anti-spin = moving the cenre of rotation in a arc counter to the direction of rotation.

if you take 1 poi forwrads buzzsaw, you can move it up and over to the other side of the body backwards, without ever going against the direction of spin, unlike meg i find this easier in front rather than windmill, but hey.

the transition at the top and bottom can be anti-spun, but dosnt have to be. when the poi is on its inside swing (when the head is closest to your body) you can move it up and over to go down on the inside swing of the backwards. it fits fine with the rotation but just on the other side from a normal direction transition.

think about the move i described, poi are swinging forwards in buzzsaw, hands are circling backwards in buzzsaw. total anti-spin.

and heres the real rub. what I descibe produces a radically diffrent trail from all other types of buzzsaw. And thats the point, shurly?

T wave


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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:Ok, so I went and played with this a lil. What I believe you are actually doing is basically an anti-spin flower in buzzsaw plane. Its not an anti-spin buzzsaw. Anti-spin buzzsaws are impossible because your hands and heads can not possibly spin opposite directions around the center of the chain (which is what an anti-spin buzzsaw would truly be.) This is why the number of intersections there are vary depending on how fast you rotate your hands. Its just like adding or subtracting petals from a flower. The slower you move your arms, the more petals there will be. The fountain MCP talks about IS still an anti-spin buzzsaw fountain. The fountain you suggest would be an anti-spin buzzsaw flower fountain.

...And if you combined the two, you would have an anti-spin buzzsaw flower anti-fountain which is entirely too long a name for a poi move. So please, no one do that one smile


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
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Posted:I dont believe in antispin buzzsaws.. here's why...

1- the buzzsaw you hands should not make little circles.. that's partially isolating one...

2- you can't antispin and isolation.. they are both center of spin issues and you can't change the center of spin to the center AND change the centere of spin to two seperate directions.. it would require your poi to revolve around the center of the string and be butterfly'ing for all intents and purposes on one string alone as your hands would go one way and the poi goes the other relative to the center of the string..

sorry nix.. I don't buy it.. I told you that before..


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:ok,

yes, its an invert anti-flower. but you have to realise that for anything to antispin the hands have to move in an arc, so that means seperating your hands in the buzzsaw, and any seperation with beats is a flower. so shure when you seperate you buzzsaw out a bit, then anti-spin it, you get a flower, because you cant antispin beatless, you get a mess, or a stall.

but whats above dosn't anti-spin. There is no point where you have to move your hands against the spin of the poi. what happens when you reach the top is actaully a little figure eight. the back swing of the forwards poi comes up to circle and the poi decends on the back swing of the now backwards circle.

it would be antispin if you forced it over without this.

rev: I wasnt talking about anti-spin and isolations, thease are opposite sides of the same effect, but have you tried an isoalted anti-flower? tis totally possible, and not really all that far removed from the original motion....

and if you dont think a buzzsaw circles, well, boo for you.

icon:

Written by:
Anti-spin buzzsaws are impossible because your hands and heads can not possibly spin opposite directions around the center of the chain (which is what an anti-spin buzzsaw would truly be.)



ok, we are not moving around the centre of the chain, we are moving around the centre point of the buzzsaw. the poi and hands still face in opposite directions as in normal buzzsaw, its just offsett.

you know the old joke, how is it that two sheep can be facing in opposite directions and still see each other?

so if we re-adust what you said to "Anti-spin buzzsaws are impossible because your hands and heads can not possibly spin opposite directions around the center of the buzzsaw."

this is infact what is happening, when the hand is on the back part of the circle the head is on the front, opposite to the hand, and opposite to the other poi.

i dont really care about weather you define it as anti-buzz or invert anti-flower. but I do think calling a backwards buzzsaw fountain anti-spin is a missnomer.

T wave


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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:Its not an anti-spin buzzsaw and thats really all there is to it hehe. Buzzsaws have one (read single) point of rotation. This holds true to all currently known forms of buzzsaws (normal, isolated, and hyperlooped) and is a buzzsaw's main defining trait. Doing what you suggest creates many points of rotation. Therefore, it cannot be an anti-spin buzzsaw.

As for the buzzsaw fountain, I dont see how its a missnomer. Your hands are indeed moving counter the way the poi are moving. No, it doesnt look quite like the usual anti-spin move because it only has 1 point of rotation and there is no way for the poi to move against each other as with other anti-spins. It is still, however, technically an anti spin move. The most anti-spinny a buzzsaw is going to get without flowering it (which, again, technically isnt a buzzsaw). smile


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Total posts: 3749
Posted:so a buzzsaw with the arms seperated is not a buzzsaw? and i thought the definig point about a buzzsaw was that it stayed inside the arms, otherwise a buzzsaw fountain would not be possible cos the point of rotation moves, as would waterfall isolations (isolations that spit one up one down, together, then the opposite poi up and down)

seperated buzzsaw still has that single point, only the handles are also moving around it.

what i describe rotates around a single point too, just the other way.

the idea of many points or rotation is an illusion created by the anti-spin itself, infact the point of rotation is constantly moving around a central point, its the points where the poi cross that change.

as for the misnomer, its like this, if you actually suceed in making the transition from forwards to back as an anti-spin (wich is super hard cos the poi naturally want to do it without) the rest of the buzzsaw is still normally spun. in effect you have a buzzsaw fountain with anti-spun transitions.

if you still dont understand why you can go backwards and not antispin, heres the breakdown.

forward poi comes up above the head, hand moving upwards with the upwards quotiant of the spin, not against it (the poi is going up when its close to your chest)

once above the head the poi spins 180 degrees as you turn. now the poi is heading downward in the inside (closest to your chest)

anti spin would only happen if you pulled it through the 180 transition period, making an outside loop (the signature of antispin). the thing is, this outside circle dosnt have to be pulled through to the next side, you can just leave your hand there and wait for it to come down in the right place.

essentailly the diffrence is between bringing your hand up and following the poi in its little figure eight, or not following and pulling to the other side. the first is not anti-spin, the second is.

what you could do is buzzsaw fountain with just four circles, but then this realy is an invert flower, no? and you STILL end up with the motions that i describe, just traveling.

for any part of abuzzsaw to anti-spin, at some point the hands have to do opposite direction to the poi, in your case its the transition from side to side, but what makes you think that transition point is a diffrent motion to what i described?

its not, its totally the same.

the problem here comes from not beleiving that hands orbit a circle in buzzsaw. seperate your buzzssaw and look agin. then spin it backwards, then try your fountain. it will make the transition make much more sence too.

T wave


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Rev
Rev

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Posted:nix.. isoalting an antipsin flower is easy because that already has two points of rotation one to isoalte and one to antispin... the point was that you can't antspin and isolation as in the you can't antipin the circle that is being defined by the isolatation because it would invovle the porblem I mentioned above.. hence why you cna't antispin a buzzsaw, nor antispin longarm and so forth...

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:yeah, you cant antispin a single circle, cos it messes up and stalls, all anti-spiun movemnts have to be somewhat seperated. but this is the closest thing your gonna get to an anti-spun buzzsaw.

and i take it back what i said erlier, if you do the 4 point crossing version you get 3 beats, and for a 2 point crossing version you only get one. so that works biggrin

actaully, i think you can antispin a single circle..... yup. here is it in wall plane...

start point, poi hangs down, hand is up.

2nd point, poi points left, hand is left

3rd point poi points up, hand is down

4th: poi poits right, hand is right

when we return to the start point the poi and arm have done only one circle.

runs off to work on longarm anti-spin....

T wave


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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:Written by:
the idea of many points or rotation is an illusion created by the anti-spin itself, infact the point of rotation is constantly moving around a central point, its the points where the poi cross that change.


It is because of this that this move is not a buzzsaw. No, a buzzsaw with the hands separated is not a buzzsaw because there are then two points of rotation. ONE of the defining traits of a buzzsaw is that it stays between the arms but another is that there is only one point of rotation. There are many moves that can be done inside the arms that are not buzzsaws. You may say that all moves done inside the arms are buzzsaw variations if you like such as buzzsaw separations and buzzsaw flowers. But they arent buzzsaws. Look at flowers. Theyre a variation of extended arm circles. You cant anti spin long arm circles without doing flowers. Its the same thing. Calling what youre doing an anti-spin buzzsaw is like calling an anti-spin flower an anti-spin extension. What youre doing is an anti-spin buzzsaw flower.

Im done now. I got too many things on my mind ATM.

But you wanna know about the pandoras box you open with anti-spinning single circles? Its kind of a secret but Ill let you in I guess...

...Squares my friend. You shall soon be spinning squares.

Or diamonds if you wanna get technical smile


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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Squares are bloody hard to spin. You can also get them through isolating as well. Still not quite as hard as figure-of-eights though wink

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:nix.. again the problem that I have with what you are doing.. you are changing to multiple centers of spin.. because in order to antispin from the single center of spin AT that point.. your arm must rotate, not just your hand...
thus arm up poi down; arm left poi left; arm down poi up; arm right poi right..

in your description if the arm isnt in said position, then your switching to a two center of spin... like I was saying before.. where you have one center of spin for the poi moving forward and one center of spin at the wrist moving backwards.. which again I said was the key to antispin... think about everything else that antispins.. its always poi forward, arms backward.. ie. where poi meets hand going forward, and shoulders as the center going backwards..

I told you this last night but you refused to hear it.. its the basic premise of how antispin works.. because you can't antispin a single center of rotation.. which is why you can't antispin a buzzsaw... nor longarm stuff for that matter.. your antispinning of a single longarm circle is like antispinning your hand while rotating your wrist.. your still mvoing further down to add another center of rotation.. hence why you couldn't antispin a longarm weave where there is one center of rotation (between the shoulder blades.)


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:wow, you gotta hammer it home in both threads huh?

look the other one.

I know what i mean, and im pretty shure you know what i mean, and weather you think it should be called whatever is irrelevent, cos what im doing is a new move, a whole new set of moves which works, which looks diffrent and expands the basic movement concepts of poi.

If you want to argue about what it should be called, why dont you jump on spherc and hit the encyclopedia. Im making this thread to find more variations and actually discover tricks, not argue about the definition of buzzsaw.

if i called it buzzsaw plane anti-spin it would be fine huh? well im just gonna call it buzzsaw anti-spin for short.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
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Posted:Post deleted by arashi

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
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Posted:yeah, i was wondering why i never heard it before....

i recon it comes down to definitions, when i say buzzsaw, i mean the whole set, not just the foundation move, and when i say longarm, i mean any move with the arms extended, not especially a one point of rotation. for example longarm butterfly isolations.

Im workin on the hyps arashi, ill get back when i got something new....

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:nix- if you read the post in the other thread. you would have read the "as cut from the other thread" or something that I put there..

and I'm not arguing what it -is- because Im trying to find this -is- that you are talking about.. so far all I have read is that you have found that if you take and use two different centers of spin.. then you can antispin.. which.. pardon my confusion.. is... antispin..

I understand that your applying this to -new- concepts as you see it.. but I hardly think that the fact you can rotate at one point and rotate at another point the other way is -new-.. I kinda thought this to be what was meant when antipsin was discussed..


you speak of antispinning in the buzzsaw plane.. which I (along with others) do not contend is what is meant when you say antispin buzzsaw.. hence why I (along with others) said what we did..


what is this 'new' concept? I'd really like to know.. your on about it an aweful lot.. yet in a bit of role reversal here.. I don't understand what your on about.. because so far all I've read is that you've found out how to antispin.. antispin a circle.. but isnt antispinning a circle what you use to antispin everything else? I mean its not the weave that is antisspun in the antispun weave... but rather two antispun circles being woven together..


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:ok.

before now, all antispin i did took place over more than one beat, eg. anti-spun flowers.

for me, this is the first time i realised you can antispin a single beat. If you have known this for ever than you could just agree with me and point out a few variations possible with the concept, or go find a board with a higher level of technical discussion.

thats the point, or was, untill it was hyjacked by peaple arguing weather it counts as 'longarm' or 'buzzsaw' or something else. very helpfull.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:I'm sorry nix if you find me rude.. but just because a antispun -move- took more then one beat, I always thought tit clear that antispin itself could be done in one.. otherwise it would be antispins..

correct me if I'm wrong.. but do you want to know all the ways in whihc one might be able to spin a single antispun circle?

if so then isnt that just a matter of how your circles spin given the distance between the centers of rotation?

I mean its easy to antispin say the hand within one beat of the poi circle.. but something like a flower(shoulder and poi), you have to spin the arm REALLY fast in order to match the speed of the poi circle..

does that make any sense? is that any mroe on topic or am I still in left field


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:its a bit more on topic,

yeah, i never said it was easy.

got any variations?

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:well what do you want for variations.. I mean.. what I described kinda implies that you take one center of spin and combnine it with another..



wrist and hand hand and handle wrist and shoulder.. and so forth and so on.. with the difficulty being the poi length vs the length between centers of rotation.. since that determines the speed of the respective side..



I'm nto sure what else you mean by variations.. since I know I'm more on topic..





edit: oh and what of 3 centers and 4 centers of rotation.. where you have poi spinning forward, hand rotating backwards and arm moving forward.. lol.. and other such nonsense...

EDITED_BY: Rev (1099693069)


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:wrist anti-spins dont work for me *shrug*

has anyone actually had ago at that 4 point anti-fountain? its really nifty. specially if you add in "invert plane anti-spin" wich kinda happens anyway.

how about trying to split the anti 1 up one down? how does this affect hyperloops? I know if you tangle then wing your hands backwards it goes all weird....

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:tnalges with the hands backwards don't go weird... i talked about them almost a year ago.. you can wind thepoi just as you cna counter wind them.. with tangles you cnamove your hands like acomplete gyrascope in any way without seriously affecting the spin of the poi themselves.. but that's another topic for another day..

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:I do'nt have time to read all the posts and enter the argument but I was shown these antispin buzzsaw seperations by a Japanese spinner in Bangkok and they're lovely. ubblove

Only doing one hand speration at a time while the other stays still and then back into buzzsaw...tis a nice variation...


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:i just realised anti-spin buzzsaw is the same as a wall plane buzzsaw if you squash it. smile

--ben


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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:I just realized every single poi move is the same as spinning circles at your side if you put it elsewhere...

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:LMAO...

I ahve to disagree.. I don't feel that stalls or traces look like spinning circles in any plane :P

just giving you crap because of your sig line.. spank hug


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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
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Posted:ICoN, you got it in one.

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