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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Offset weaves - an argument over definitions

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Rev and I have recently been having a long argument over what exactly is an offset weave, and after reaching an impasse I thought I'd post here and see what people thought. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a decent definition here, not even in the terminology thread

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/1
br>
So what do people think they are?

My position is that they're doing (for instance) a 2bt weave where instead of just having one arm cross the other one and come back you do it by having one arm twist under the other one (like you do in a 5bt weave) and untwist - keep repeating this and you're doing a 2bt weave. Or you could do a 2bt weave by just crossing your elbows like in a 7bt weave.

Rev doesn't agree with this... I'll let him post his definition here in a sec smile

Thoughts appreciated! ubbrollsmile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:i agree that what you describe is an offset weave as i see it.
there are other types too probably.


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Never heard the term before now. Its a dumb arguement if you ask me because there are no real definitions for these terms. This one especially cuz other than what you just described I cant think of any other uses for it. I would just say a crossed arm 2 beat weave. rolleyes

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Now that I mention it, didnt we decide that these were called crossers a while ago? As in, any move done while your arms are crossed...

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

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Posted:crossers are reels done with the arms crossed... rather then normal reels wheich are same sided... not a significant distinction.. just kinda an fyi.. (no arugment basically is what I'm saying)


and offset weaving..

ok.. weaves.. roughly... are a cross follow pattern between two planes.. hence every weave is a set of planes.. and the beats done in that set are equal.. ie. a 3bt weave has a set of 3bts...

now offset weaves are when you get -off- the set.. and thus end up in a lopsided or asymetrical weave... ie. 5bts on the right, but only 2bts on the left..

keep in mind that weaves are onyl two planes.. so for example.. when jo derry does 5bts right side, 2 bts left side.. that is one offset weave... to which he then uses another offset weave to 'reset' the base twist.. thus doing 2bts the right side and 5bts on the left.. which essentially balances things back out..

offset weaves are NOT weaves inside of weaves... thought they can certainly be seen that way.. for instance the example above is a 2bt weave slipped in the middle of the 5bt weave.. but we have to look at the big picture here.. and not redefine weave as something more then jsut two planes.. (barring semantical arguments about doing a 3 plane watermill)

some people also refer to offset weaves as any weave done with a base twist higher than 0..

let me describe this...
lets say I do 5bt weave
5bts right side
5bts left side..
now I change up
5bts right side
2bts left side..
when I go back to my right side I ahve a base twist of 3.. as in my arms are twisted as if I had done 3 bts even though I have as yet done none.. which means that if I do 2bts on my right side.. I have essentially 5bts worth of twist.. (which incidently is how doing a 5bts on my left side balances things back out.. )

however.. I do not think these limbo beats from a base twist.. count as offsetting a weave..

let me provide another example..
I do my 5bt weave
5 bts right
5bts left then change
5bts right
3 bts left then change again
3bts right
3bts left
3bts right
3bts left

these last two sets.. are 3bt weaves... nothing more.. because weave is NOT defined by hand position... now one thing you will find einteresting is that those 3 bt weaves.. are done with opposite lead hands.. (as in the right leads to the right side and the left leads to the left side) hence why some people refer to these as offset weaves.. but I think that's just adding confusion.. that's a 3bt weave done with opposite lead hands..

the reason I don't count these base twist beats as 'offsetting' my weave is because those beats NEVER come into play.. and when they do, the weave they come to play in is the offset weave...

as in..

5bts right side
5bts left side (set weave)
5bts right side
3bts left side (offset weave)
3bts right side
3bts left side (set weave)
3bts right side
5bts left side (offset weave) (which consequently resets your base twist back to zero)

now... why do I bring all this up? because I think offset weaves are more than just the weave inside a weave like examples that most people spin.. offset weaves refer to anytiome one sides beat count dont match the other sides. which does not always result in a base twist..

example:

go from a 3bt to a 5bt weave..
L-R-L (right side)
R-L-R (left side) 3bt set weave
L-R-L-R (right side) [4bts]
R-L-R-L-R (left side) [5bts] offset weave
l-r-l-r-l (right side)
r-l-r-l-r (left side) 5bt set weave

I can also other techniques to enter a weave with base twist.. or exit a weave without ridding base twist.. so I think base twist is helpful in understanding some aspects of how offsetting can disjunct and re sync a weave (think of twists aka hyperloops, aka outside airwraps that twist a number of beats on one side and then untwist an number of beats.. thats how the base twist works)... but I think speaking purely from the definition of weave, the only offset weaves are the lopsided ones.. because 'weave' is not hand motion specific but poi motion specific.. and base twist refers to hand motions..


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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:ooh you got me eating dinner late at night... so I'll post in poi moves:

offset weaves = goofy weaves

There are definitions for these, I know I wrote them. Do a search for posts made about 2-3 years ago.
Just like there are definitions for all the other moves, families and concepts which i developed, explored and defined. Feel free to argue about what I said smile (oh you have been already....you could just have asked me)
I don't think it matters, as long as you're all having fun.

Ask coleman, he got the IRL definition longtime ago.
Plus theres the slightly insane and super geeky weave state diagrams which explains them... e-mailable somewhere round here.

Spiralx's sounds about right, BUT Neither of you have written a very clear unambiguous definition

this won't help much, (bit pompous to quote myself i know, I'm sorry):

Written by: Glss

goofy weaves. they're weaves that are offset down the weave arm helix. they're a good candidate for the most ugly and pointless move in poi.
do a 2 or 3 (or 4 etc) beat weave offset to a 5 or 7 beat weave position.

So for a 3 beat offset to a 7, its like doing a 7 beat on one side, and a minus 1 beat on the other, the poi make the same path as a regular 3 beat, but the arms are double crossed.
enjoy. ubblol
Glass



Smiles
smile
G


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Geeks rolleyes smile

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:i suggest we :
call the spiralx version an offset weave
call rev's version an off set weave
and glass's's version is clearly an off?(SET) weave

now i think i'll go have a sniff round spherculism and see if there's any new definitions i can bitch about wink


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tenticle


tenticle

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Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

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Posted:I agree with glasses version. They're weaves where you don't untwist or twist up all the way to do a full 5 or 7 or whatever on each side, and just use whatever transition you happen to feel like doing at the time, to make a 2 or a 3 or something. Which means i also agree with revs version. It just depends on where you start counting from...

But they aren't ugly or pointless! Even ones done with elbow 7s look cool, but proper 7s give you a whole other place to spin in. 2 more in fact. 4 if you can do it wall plane...

then you can do a 2-3-4-5-6-7-3-carry-2-6-4-2(crosser)-5-3bt weave and never actually do a full move.

or a -(elbow)7-3-3-7-. or a -2-3-2-3-2-3-3-2-3-2-3-2-



--ben

EDITED_BY: tenticle (1096543784)


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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Now that is what I was saying... Rev's definition is just a different way of counting what I was saying.

Glass - thanks, I knew you'd posted about these ages ago, couldn't remember the term you'd used when looking for it smile


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:like I said spiral



you ahve my definition here... <hop definition here.. > your definition here...









however.. glass actually posted.. on a thread... and discussed things.. and was more than a dirve by tadbit posting.. thank you glass clap thankx



Written by: glass


Spiralx's sounds about right, BUT Neither of you have written a very clear unambiguous definition





well my issue is spirals definition doesnt work on any beat.. he's caught up on two bts..



mine is pretty straight forward.. are the beats lopsided? (as in different beat count per side) then its offset... are the beats the same per side... then its set... simple as that..





the reason I don't like including a 3bt with double twisted arms (which by the way is what I refered to as having extra twist [in contrast to normal weaves whihc have 0 base twist]) is because these extra 'limbo' beats.. from a twist dont' necessarily ever have to emerge... nor do you have to offset a weave to get these 'extra' twists.. nor do you necesaarily get extra twists when you offset...



that's just my opinion.. because I used to base them solely around the base twist until I realized the base twist was irrelevent.. *shrug*


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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I was talking about two beats because if you're using a 5bt movement then you can only do a 2bt weave without coming out of being offset. If you're in the 7bt position then you've got more freedom to offset different weaves.

Which I admit I was wrong about to begin with, but it doesn't take away from my main point ubblol

What I still don't agree with is that there are different numbers of circles on each side wink


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:GEEKFIGHT!!!!!!!!

tongue


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Can someone please define:

Offset Weaves
Cross Overs
Hugs
Crosses
Straight Jackets

And while you're at it, figure out that whole Israeli/Palastinian thing. wink

Actually, I've seen all of the above terms used to describe moves when your hands are 'crossed'.

I read both Spiral's and Rev's post and thought they were saying the same thing.

Whatever they are, they're my flavor of the month right now. Thanks to Bluecat for getting me back on the Hug kick.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:its all just names isnt it, we all kinda understand each other.. thats good enough for me smile

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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tenticle


tenticle

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Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

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Posted:take for instance a -7-3-3-7- weave. spiral says the 3-3 part is the offset weave, and rev says the 7-3 and the 3-7 are off set weaves. i say they all are. crossers and hugs are reels done on the wrong side, straightjackets are reels with your arms crossed indian fasion, crosses have planes at 90 degrees to each other and do weaves and ttns at the same time.

and you can offset butterfly weaves.

--ben


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:you make alot of sense ben, although i dont know what indian style means...

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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tenticle


tenticle

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Total posts: 275
Posted:like this

crossed arms...

first 2 of them.


--ben


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:oo, i see - thats gotta be a bit of a bugger to get into/out of im off to have a play.

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: tenticle
take for instance a -7-3-3-7- weave. spiral says the 3-3 part is the offset weave, and rev says the 7-3 and the 3-7 are off set weaves.


In a nutshell, yes ubblol I say the 3-3 part is important because it doesn't matter whether it's 7-3-3-7, 9-3-3-9 or whatever, the poi follow the same path during the 3-3 bit and you can continue that as long as you want.

Written by: tenticle
and you can offset butterfly weaves.


Of course! Don't think you can offset buzzsaw weaves though, could be wrong about that though! wink


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Well... you can kind of do offsets in buzzsaw weaves... If you can do a straightjacket, it's easy enough to do a 2bt weave with your arms crossed the same way, just a bit of an arse to get out of again. But i think they have a different name...

And you can do a -5-3-3-5-, rather than just a -5-2-2-5-, you use the left poi leading back the the left side transition that you use in a normal 2bt. The two 3bt bits have the odd property of having each poi do 2 beats on the same side, 1 on the crossed over side, rather than 2 on the crossed side, one on the same. But it's back to normal for the -7-3-3-7-. So it is important to say what the 5 or 7 bit was that you're starting from, so you know which poi is leading.

--ben


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:I'm just saying in a 7-3-3-7 scenario.. if you go by 3-3 then your talking 3bt weave.. but if you go by 7-3 and 3-7 (whihc is the case because I mean you said 7-3-3-7 not x-7-3-3-7-x you know) we are tlaking weave.s.. so they have to be either sets.. or offsets..

not the 7-3-3-7 is a bad example... because here you have a weave that is offset awith a counter offset to reset it back to back.. I think it truly comes to light when you have longer discrepencies.. like say 7-3-3-3-3-7

7-3 is offset 3-3 is set 3-7 is offset.. (which counter sets)

Written by: nyc

Cross Overs
Hugs
Crosses
Straight Jackets



someones been talking to too many glokids.. hehehe

cross overs are wraps.. that are crossed.. like right arm spins clockwise around the elft left arm and wraps on the right bicep... or a sametime version would be right doing that while left arm goes over the right arm and wraps on the bottom of the left bicep.. so that your wrists are crossed over..

hugs are basic crossers in whihc the hands are on opposite sides and done like reels with the hands at the armpits.. hence the 'hug'

crosses are the same as crossers... reels donew with arms corssed rather then same sides..

straight jackets.. fold your arms.. like take your left armand bend it 90 degrees at the elbow poiting right... now take your right arm put the right bicep under the left handbring the right arm over the left forearm and under the left bicep.. now spin..
they are REALLY easy to get into from inverted weaves..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: tenticle
And you can do a -5-3-3-5-, rather than just a -5-2-2-5-, you use the left poi leading back the the left side transition that you use in a normal 2bt. The two 3bt bits have the odd property of having each poi do 2 beats on the same side, 1 on the crossed over side, rather than 2 on the crossed side, one on the same. But it's back to normal for the -7-3-3-7-. So it is important to say what the 5 or 7 bit was that you're starting from, so you know which poi is leading.

--ben


Ah I see what you mean - I think that might be what Rev has been trying to explain for the last week ubblol

So to check - leading with right poi on right side, right twists under left arm, left leads to left side, untwist, left leads to right, begin again?


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Written by: spiralx

So to check - leading with right poi on right side, right twists under left arm, left leads to left side, untwist, left leads to right, begin again?



hmm... not sure. a 3bt has the lead change on each transition.
do a left leading 2bt weave. then, when on the left side, lead back with the right with the right poi like you would for a 5bt, then lead back to the left with the left like you do in the 2bt.

It's a lot easier to think of these in terms of which transitions you use... because then it describes both hand position and poi movement at the same time. but i havn't finished working out all the maths for it yet. but it's not that hard really.

--ben


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:Written by: spiralx


Ah I see what you mean - I think that might be what Rev has been trying to explain for the last week ubblol





lolsign


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Sorry rev, your explainations aren't always the best lol wink All I ever wanted was a simple "where do my hands go?" description ubblol
EDITED_BY: spiralx (1096740332)


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:I'm sorry spiral..



I just thought that if you picked up poi.. and did.. x bts (right) - ybts(left) - z bts (right).. it would have shown you.. I mean.. I know they say we 'all weave different', but we don't weave different enough so that following the smae beat progression would yield a different result..



I didnt' know how to be any clearer..

beerchug





so on to the next argument, err topic.. wink


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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
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-=Sidhe=-


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Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Total posts: 22
Posted:Jo Derry was doing these things on COL4, yeah?

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infinite


infinite

member
Location: ashland OR

Total posts: 110
Posted:I can do the offset weaave in reverse, as well as doing the offset 2beat and a 5 beat on each side of my body. Hand positioning on the right goes left hand over right hand poi go under offset 2 beats, then on same side left hand under right hand and the 5 bt weave . Going fromt the 5 beat to the other offset requires some jedi poi twisting on multiple planes kinda thing. 5 bt to offest to offest to 5 bt and thats 7 bt on both sides with no wrap right??? 9 with one wrap?

dont make peoples heads turn, give them whiplash.

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