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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:I was thinking about various fire arts and how cool the flames look. Then I started to think about the glowing jewelery and stuff you can buy.

THEN i thoguht, well why not try combine the two???

I will draw some designs tomorrow when Im at work, but so far I have thought of a peice to be worn on the arm that can be set on fire. It should be safe enough to disapate the heat away from the user and also prevent any other part of the body being burnt.

Or maybe im just crazy ubbloco
I think there is lots of variations on the idea and if anyone wants to chip in then your more than welcome, just think how cool these things would look when you as a person light up during a fire display!


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:I weave chains as my other hobby so it wouldnt be that hard to mesh the to for me. Personally I'd say if you're going to make something out of metal I would go for titanium, not really something most people play with... But it handles heat better than most things though, you could always just put a leather liner between the skin and fire and you'd probably be fine

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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:Written by:
you could always just put a leather liner between the skin and fire and you'd probably be fine



No no no you won't be fine. You will need more than just leather. Whatever is on fire should be suspended above whatever is holding it to you if you want to make this jewelry thing work. I am really touchy about anything on fire "attatched" directly to you. That's what put me in the hospital with a third degree burn. The leather will insulate you for a little bit like 15 seconds, then it will start to hold the heat to your skin and bake you. eek

So like I said try to suspend the fire above the attachment point so that there is air between the fire (wick) and you. It's also a pretty good idea to make the jewelry easy to get out of quick. That way if you need to bail, you can. biggrin

Good luck and be safe cool


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:I agree completely with Cody!

Attaching fire to yourself is a sure-fire way to get burned. I know of a guy who twisted some wick onto some wire and made a leather armband, thinking it would protect him.

After a few minutes, the wire heated up and gave him a nasty nasty burn THROUGH the leather, and the skin ripped off when he yanked off the armband! eek

Also be aware that anything attached has a chance of burning another part of your body, such as the flame being accidentally stopped under you ear, especially if its windy.

Not only that, but the attached fire wick may get snagged or caught up in hair or clothing! eek And don't forget about other people who might get THEIR hair or clothing snagged too.

As far as I know, the only safe(ish) place to attach fire is sticking up from the OUTSIDE of a helmet, and it looks pretty silly rather than anything else...

All in my opinion of course...


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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:Marvin the marshin style (or pyromancer). biggrin Wick suspended above the attachment point. Go for it get creative, but heed our warnings or learn the true meaning of pain wink.

Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Well I guess I didn't talk enough up there tongue

I wouldnt attach fire directly to anyone, there would obviously have to be a seperation in between. Kind of like the fire palms that are around every once in awhile. I would always have a quick release method just in case you had to ditch it quick. Lacing with a slip knot or something so it can be off you in a split second.

Ti limits heat transfer better than say steel. So it wouldnt be as likely to dissipate back and burn you


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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:*designer brain starts working like crazy* ubbidea some ideas for the pot?

Sounds like an interesting idea, but like the others, I would be wary of putting fire anywhere near the skin without the relevant protection, but possibly you could look into the type of fabrics they use for firemens protective suits? and the building up of different material layers for further protection. this might make a close to the skin base protective layer - but still to concentrate on keeping the fire away from the skin. I think there's scope for some interesting constructions that hold the actual fire away from the body but still look beautiful as jewellery in their own right...

Alternatively, thinking about the problem from a different angle such as jewellery that reflects the fire in such a way that it looks as though it was on fire... containing the fire within the jewellery might be a possibility, or if you wanted to get really technical about it, it might be worth looking into pyrotechnics and the sort of 'controlled' fires they use for displays - thinking about opening ceremony at the olympics and the fire rings floating on water? I don't know much but there might some interesting techniques there that would help. Possibly use of electricity to create sparks?

Also, are you thinking these jewellery pieces would be reusable - using wicks and paraffin? might also want to think about non-tarnishable materials in that case, so the soot doesn't ruin the aesthetic? or it could be part of the aesthetic....

I appreciate that there's probably a lot more to your thinking than what is written here, but just throwing some ideas around smile sounds like it could be a really innovative line of thinking and definately worth investigating, but safety concerns are paramount!!


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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:Yes i was thinking of having them reusable, but your idea of having the fire within the jewelery is really intriguing. At first I thought of something in an enclosed space such as a fake jewel but then i realised the flame wouldnt burn because it isnt in contact with oxygen. Then I thought well what about a frame structure shaped rather like a diamond with the flame held in the core of the peice. This is easily accomplished with a wick as the centre of the peice although choosing how to attach it to the body and where is much more difficult.

Arent the suits firemen wear made of kevlar with a special skin tight underlining material?

The best shield against fire would be water because you would feel it slowly heating up next to your skin giving you a way of measuring how long to leave the peice on for. if the fire could be made to sit on a small bag containing water with a fire proof shield inbetween then it would be possible to get the peice into contact with the skin.

Want to go into it deeper?


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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:The suits the firemen wear are nomex and kevlar etc. and some of the newer ones are using PBI (Blast they have discovered my secret). Firemen have a term they use called "Soaked out" that means that the heat has built up in their suit and they have to get out of the heat. My point is no suit is perfect even the aluminum proximity suits.

Couple problems with water, it aint perfect. The problem with water is it heats up and retains it's heat for a while. Your idea about the water bag is a good start but don't do it. The water once it heats up will burn you, then it will melt the plastic part of the bag to you then the hot water will spill out and burn all the flesh it touches. Or the steam created will puff out and burn you. Your not an engine, water cooled systems at the temperatures were talking about don't work for skin. Maybe if you used a heat sink. lets say the jewel is a rose, the leaves could be metal heat sinks. They would draw the heat away from the source and their large surface area would dissipate the heat. The problem is that they still get really hot and won't feel good if you touched it.

Great ideas so far, I'm just playing devils advocate devil
biggrin


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:designers need a devils advocate, do continue ubbrollsmile

Yeah, you're right about the firemen, I did actually read that doing some research a while back, but that was before I discovered the other fine uses of kevlar! biggrin at that point it seemed like magic fabric, you're absolutely right though, no material is going to be 100% perfect, and nor is any one solution, it is possible though that a combination of safety solutions could increase protection? Although there is also a size aspect to consider here, jewellery needs to be wearable and doesn't generally extend to a full suit of body armour (i say generally, but sometimes it seems to...) it will be difficult to get the right safety with wearability methinks....

Although, generally we've been talking about prolonged exposure of materials to flame, which is all extremely valid and useful, but surely controlling and shortening the potential burn time could be part of a solution....

i might......... do some research.... any advice from physicists/ pyrotechnicians could be very useful, and devils advocates! biggrin

Anthrax, it'd be really cool to see the sketches you've come up with so far, if you'd be willing to show them on the web?


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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:Ok mate i will scan the pictures tomorrow, i dont have time tonight, then ill em on a site so ya can see what im thinking of here.

Cody, i dont beleive i said the water was going to be in a 'plastic' bag although at the moment this is the only viable option i can see. Also it wouldnt burn your skin because as the water heats up you will begin to feel the temperature rise and will remove the peice before it gets too hot.

Also these items probably wont be worn for a long length of time, perhaps only during a show or parts of a show. Maybe no longer than 10 minutes.

Anything we design absolutely MUST have a quick release system, otherwise the dangers are just too great.

I like the rose idea especially the petals as heat sinks, it shouldnt be too difficult to make either. You could have the petals holding water which supports the wick (the wick would be on something which floats). These could then be attached to each hand and then some form of indian dancing could be used to show off the peices during a show. Just making sure the hands are facing palms down (or up) depending on how you attach the rose. Im thinking of those floating tea lights you can get (ya know what i mean?)

Anyway ive gotta go, im going out, so ill give you more ideas tomorrow.

I will do some reading on the subject and see what i can dig up.


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squarefish
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2002
Total posts: 403
Posted:Anthrax,
nice idea man, but, are you aware that water can act as an insulator as well as a conductor of heat?
Heat disperses through water by convection not conduction. This is why a heating element is at the bottom of a kettle not the top. If it was at the top the surface layers of water would boil and the lower layers remain cold.

(if anyones interested I can post a nice experiment demonstrating how to have solid ice and boiling water in the same test-tube on a bench)

The point is that without a mechanical pump circulating the water around the device, you could end up with local hot spots and dangerous pressure fulctuations from sudden steam pockets forming and collapsing. eek

The way that I would approach the problem would be a combination of reflection isolation and radiation of the un wanted heat. ubbidea

Will try to get into this later but I'm on an expensive internet connection here in San Fran. wink

Keep up the ideas!
martin


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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:Anthrax, I think squarefish is right. the volumes of water we are talking about here for jewelry are quite small and I don't think water will accomplish what your after. I know you didn't mention a plastic container but I was on a roll. smile I use a fire contact juggling ball with tight fitting leather gloves. Throughout the performace even though I'm moving the ball arround and from hand to hand, everything heats up and I have to pause and let my hands cool off. The thing I notice is with reguard to feeling the heat and stopping before it becomes too hot is deceptive. The gloves heat up further after the flame is removed because the leather is retaining the heat and convecting it to me. Any addition of water would promptly turn in to steam inside the glove and actually burn me. ( not that I've tried )
Unless your planning on having a pint of water between you and the flame, I don't think water is the solution.
Now, with the heat sink idea. If you have the rose on fire with a thick stem down to the leaves acting as heat sinks, then a very narrow stem down to the body. I believe this setup provides for the least amount of heat going towards the body, then you can have your leather/kevlar etc. My big concern would be needing the stem. biggrin


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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griffin
griffin

feminine tiddly pom
Location: cambs england
Member Since: 4th Jun 2004
Total posts: 505
Posted:dunno if anyones mentioned this, but what about neon? thats on fire right? ok, no flames, but the light..??

in state of metamorphosis

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tigercub
tigercub

journeyman
Location: PETERBOROUGH
Member Since: 26th Aug 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:problem with all this guys, is its all goning to be too bulky, i mean storing water on a braclet/armband is going to take up some room , and if it was in a plastic bag the durability would suffer, anyway surley you dont want to divert the attention from the twirling ??

just me, my lighter and a lifes supply of paraffin

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:<<<Keeps an interested eye on this thread>>>

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Lyra
spiny norman
Location: Cincinnati,damn it
Member Since: 24th Feb 2004
Total posts: 314
Posted:theoreticaly i love this idea, but....

as a kid i once had boiling water spilled on my legs whille i was wearing courdory pants, i stood up(the boiling water ran down my legs and the wet fabric stuck to my skin) i ripped my pants of and most of my skin came off with them (should i mention i was a 4 mile walk from the nearest radio and a two hour feirry ride to the nearest town at the time?)

thus i dont think the combination of heat, water and fabric in direct contact with your skin seems like a very good idea

i really wish this could work though, it would be a beautiful addition i any show

peace


if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes

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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:ok, i havnt put my ideas on a site yet, mainly because after seriously reviewing them, I still have not solved any of the major problems we have such as heat build up.

I know it has to work somehow and the best thing ive come up with yet is a metal ring with a flower on it. The petals of the flower curve up slightly allowing you to put lighter fluid into it. On the edge of one of the petals is a small flint wheel.

Basically when you want a cigarette you put a small amount of lighter fluid in the flower, spark the fling wheel (or an electric start would work as well), light your cigarette and blow out the flames or smother them with your hand.


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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:Written by: tigercub

problem with all this guys, is its all goning to be too bulky, i mean storing water on a braclet/armband is going to take up some room , and if it was in a plastic bag the durability would suffer, anyway surley you dont want to divert the attention from the twirling ??



That's my concern too, i haven't actually thought about this problem in much depth yet, and I'm intrigued to know what some of these heat sucking systems might look like...

anthrax, I really like the sound of the idea that you described, perhaps a small well can be incorporated for the lighter fluid rather than pouring it in? then you could wear it out and if any one asks for a light... for such a short use, it might just work, (except for people like me who obsessively flick lighters and wear out the flints, and I don't even smoke.... redface biggrin)

As for our whole heaty/ burn issue, I was going to do some research wasn't i? didn't get round to it yet but I will do that and have a think or three.....


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tigercub
tigercub

journeyman
Location: PETERBOROUGH
Member Since: 26th Aug 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:just thinking, you can get like ecp (electric shock stuff) gel , that myt help, like a slip on band that gets between you and the fire. as for the whole well issue, how about replacable firelighters that last a long time ( like army cooking ones! ) cheers guys

just me, my lighter and a lifes supply of paraffin

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tigercub
tigercub

journeyman
Location: PETERBOROUGH
Member Since: 26th Aug 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:anthrax you have a pm

just me, my lighter and a lifes supply of paraffin

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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:Or even a wick coming from the centre? Just like a zippo lighter except mega small and in the shape of a flower.

P.S I LOVE MY ZIPPO, lol NOn I too constantly flick lighters, my favourite at the moment is to sit at work and nab a disposable lighter whilst grinding down the flint wheel and watching all the pretty smoke.


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tigercub
tigercub

journeyman
Location: PETERBOROUGH
Member Since: 26th Aug 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:a wick, how the hell would that work hahah like a long string off your arm, it wudnt last long, myt aswell strap a candle to yourself!

just me, my lighter and a lifes supply of paraffin

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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:I want a zippo lighter, i was hoping to acquire one that was left at our house but the owner came back to claim it goddamn! Maybe it doesn't need to have any fluid it can just be a ring with a flint for sparking biggrin

Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:I'm baaaaack biggrin
Have you ever seen one of those trick squirt flower rings? they have a little bulb that is on the under side of the ring that you squeeze to squirt out the water. You could put a fuel resevoir and flint setup in your palm hidden I really like the lighter idea (except the open well of fuell part) It's only on fire for a few seconds. I say 15 seconds will be your max before you take a first degree burn. (not that it takes 15 seconds to light something) Use a wick so you don't have loose fuel issues.

Heck if your just going to make a lighter Most of my heat issues are resolved as long as the fire isn't there for too long wink


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)
Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)

resident bagpiper
Location: Vermont, USA
Member Since: 12th Jul 2003
Total posts: 342
Posted:have you ever seen an approach suit... those metal things you can get really close to molten steel while wearing... make bracelet out of that stuff, such that the wick lies in the center of a wide band and it might work

Q:What's the difference between the Great Highland Bagpipes and the Northumbrian Pipes?
A:The Great Highland Pipes burn longer.

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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:lol, i think people should be warned though that even though it isnt hot when youve put the fire out, things may soon change!! Just image the heat gradually working its way through the material till its burning your skin, you grab a petal to slip it off and end up burning both hands.

Definately should not be lit for long AT ALL. Also i dont think it will be something that can be sold, it would have to be a home project that everyone makes themself.


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darkpoet
darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish
Member Since: 14th May 2003
Total posts: 525
Posted:Written by: Lurch

IPersonally I'd say if you're going to make something out of metal I would go for titanium, not really something most people play with... But it handles heat better than most things



i take it you dont cook very much do you.....titanium conducts heat much faster than most every metal out there. As in..the titanium would get much hotter..much faster than any other material that you would choose..handling heat...yes it does that very well...by conducting it and not warping from the changes...not getting burnt while having it on fire...not gonna happen...
all in all....having flames that close to your skin for extended periods of time is just stupid...all fine and dandy in concept..but the reality is that you couldnt do it safely...


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:BUt you could also say that you cant spin in safety, yet people still do.

All the ideas do work, they just arent good enough and negating heat, I know im stating the obvious ( so i dont really know why im here lol).

To make the flower/lighter/ring idea work more safely then you could have the flower raised off of the main ring ever so slightly so that there is a layer of air between your skin and the flower. You could also have a small protusion coming from the bottom of the ring to make it easier to slip off your finger without burning yourself.

{ll} <<< Flower head
O <<< Ring that goes over finger
l <<< The protusion to make it safe to remove.


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squarefish
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2002
Total posts: 403
Posted:I think that it's definitly doable, simply saying that it's too complex or dificult or a bit risky is a wee bit of a cop out in my opinion. umm
Lots of things are difficult and risky, it's only by developing ideas and approaches that they become safer.
After all the common car engine is basically a constant mess of whirling metal and exploding gasoline, yet people use them every day.
And ussually don't even think about whats going on out of sight.

Work away Anthrax
Squarefish clap


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{anthrax}
{anthrax}

Look I've changed my title!
Location: England
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 209
Posted:Cheers mate, the whole car analogy really helps.

It makes it more complicated but to be fair it does make the ring look better:

Instead of having the flint wheel mounted onto the side of the flower or on one of the petals, use an electric spark instead. Take apart an electric ligher and steal the sparky bit from that. Have the button for the spark in the bottom of the ring with the ignition poking out slightly at the top. When you push the button with your finger, the spark ignites the wick and voila, a pretty cool looking cigarette lighter.

{||} <<<Flower petals With wick and ignition inside
0 <<<Ring
|| <<<Handle for easy removal
' <<<Button to create the spark

Actually an even better idea to make it far more safe would be to create a knuckle duster type object. Still a ring with a flower except there are 3 rings which also have some form of decoration on them (maybe more flowers?). Basically the idea is that you dont need the handle as on the previous example, you just need to hold onto the 2 rings either side of the central flame one to take the peice off without burning yourself. Only disadvantage is you cant move your fingers.

{||}{||}{||} <<<Flower heads
0 -0- 0 <<< The 3 rings connected together.


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