Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > proper behind the back butterfly waistwrap (btb bf ww)

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coleman
coleman

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Posted:mentioned this a little while back here but am posting more about it now because of a certain princess i know getting as close to nailing it as anyone i've seen.

ubblove



its a ridiculously hard move to maintain plane control through but if mastered, it would look truly beautiful...



so, the standard bf ww that most people do is based on opposite direction, same-time reels.

one hand spins the btb waistwrap circle followed by a carry which fits it perfectly into the reels.

i adore it; it looks great, feels effortless and has tonnes of gorgeous variations.



but it isn't a real bf ww... smile



if you take a standard btb waistwrap and reverse the direction that one of the poi is spinning in, you get a butterfly waistwrap.



that move, spun same-time is the killer.



an example (there are 4 basic versions although they come in pairs that are almost identical) of it broken down would be:



1 beat of a bf on right side - left hand btb ww position on right, right hand at right side. [both poi in front wall plane]

1 beat of btb bf. [both poi in behind wall plane]

1 beat of a bf on left side - right hand in btb ww position on left, left hand at left side. [both poi in front wall plane]

simultaneous top and bottom carries back to start position. [both poi in behind wall plane]



spun correctly, hands should remain together for the whole move - there should be no splitting of beats front and back like in the reel based versions.

it seems it can be forced through one cycle okay but maintaining the pattern becomes very tricky, very fast for me.



hope this makes sense to some of youse ubbangel

if you don't know what a waistwrap is, hit that search button and if you're still not sure whats going on here, check out some threads on butterfly weaves, looking out for discussions on spinning them same-time and btb.





if anyone ever gets this move with completely solid timing and clean planes, could you please make a video with it on fire and send it to me to worship and drool over please?





[that's if me bammy doesn't beat ya to it of course... wink ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:actually we are talking about going from that, dragon, to the same thing on the other side of the body with only a carry btb inbetween, iow not a full butterfly in the back, only half...
but that's my more specific ultimate definition of a WW, which may or may not be being taken on as a more perfect definition on HOP by more than cole, people here call the weave form a waistwrap too but that can be misleading, there are a bazillion different ways to waistwrap a spider ("weave"). the full bfly WW we got here is straight up and simple, and once you understand it the multitudes of spider WW's make more sense.

yes indeedy i am sick. my name is _Sam Sneed_ you betta recanize! cool ubblol though i don't understand icon, this is a cakewalk in split time but in normal it's tricky, i can do it tight with some warm up but i don't bother really i just do it split time for performance, nobody knows the difference and i think it looks cooler anyways. cole, is there a cool thing waiting around the corner from this? cause if not then i'd say do it to geek out but man this move hurts!
actually i wonder if i could do a 6 beat spider WW... it's been a while and i don't count anymore... if i ever get to play again i'll check... rolleyes


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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BamBam
BamBam

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Posted:Arashi honey we attempted it after wayyyy to much smoking and drinking. Just wanted to see if I could do a geek move .....and I can (although rather bady I admit).

Now you've got ME thinking about the 6bt weavesmiley must leave work and go and play.

Me
x


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:bammy is right - we were absolutely bolloxed when we started back on this! redface



whereas the princess can get it most of the time now though, i seem to be even less co-ordinated when i'm stone cold sober rolleyes



Written by: arashi


the full bfly WW we got here is straight up and simple





aha - can you do a full bf ww arashi?



i.e. same move as here but split the carries front and back so that you alternate between btb ww and front ww?



language and beat count discussion coming up next - please ignore if you don't care but this is mainly because i like to fully understand the ways that people like to describe moves:



[a 6bt ww (to me) is just fwd to rev 3bt weave in btb wallplane.



unless of course you consider the regular ww to be a '2bt weave ww' rather than a '4bt ww' - there are 4 beats in total in a regular btb ww as it is simply fwd to rev 2bt weave in btb wallplane.



that would make a 6bt weave ww equivalent to a 12bt move in total eek



had a really similar discussion on spherculism with bf weaves and counting them using the type of ttn used rather than the total beats in the move.



it has again raised the larger question in my head about where to draw the line with this and which is better - to count a move by its component moves (e.g. ttn/bf weaves -> ttn, waistwraps -> weaves, airwraps -> total beats or tangled beats) or by the number of beats in total - even though it is a combination move.



how many beats are there in a fountain again? wink



anyway, i can't even do the btb waistwraps based on a 4bt spider nor can i do a 6bt weave *anywhere* so waistwrapping it might prove a tad tricky!]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC
NYC

NYC
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Posted:Written by: coleman

how many beats are there in a fountain again? wink




*Buzzes in*
12 right? I was paying attention. 6 on each hand. In a full fountain. Right? Tell me I'm great!


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:6 smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:i was talking about an actual btb 5bt waist wrap weave with an added wrap to get a 6. That is btb but poi are front wall plane for 3 bt. I think confused (this would take to much time to type out and i need to roll another blunt ubblol)



I just figured out you are moving planes right? And you say you have to go from one side of the body in front all the way round to the otherside of body and back out the front again (doing btb all the time) to get a "FULL" waist wrap?



So i dont really believe that b-fly and ttn can have beats because the planes move (ie more than 2 planes) but i can accept it, if thats what you mean, if only because you have to be able to count how 'tech' wink it is, and to keep NYC happy wink biggrin



Oh man i really need to go work my btb ww ttn's. I vote this thread be renamed "rolling ttn's" wink

Sam Sneed :P


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:i suppose WW is a sticks move. but i think that spinning has evolved beyond the concept of traditional WW move, (to us, that WW is "titty twister", just one specific move in a whole world of possibilities) so that to put it in a larger context i have for my training purposes accomodated the name into the larger framework of all of the "carry" weaves. the main differentiating factor whic makes a WW a WW, is THE CARRY. the actual combinations/forms of the waistwrap you call a WW change depending on what weave pattern you are in. you can only lead the carry with one hand or the other depending on which way your hands are crossed when you are in the front.(which spider you are doing).what HOP calls a waistwrap is just one kind of weaving around the body with carries in it whenever the hands are uncrosseable and one hand can lead the other in a carry.

incedentally my "spider" concept really helps with the math here, in WW weaves, as it a superior way of conceptualizing chains, as it focuses on the hand positions during the crossovers, and not the beat counts.

i can do a WW like the weave cole's talking about, in bfly form. it's just a matter of ttn in the front until you can carry to the other side. but i'd say a full btb bfly WW is the bfly form i described to dragon, btb in front on left, carry behind, btb in front on right. the front version of a full bfly WW would be btb wall plane left,(arms in front), carry in front, btb wall plane right(arms in front.

IOW the carries go together.

counting beats or circles is ludicrous, this isn't a newbie move that fits into such fallable descriptions. well it can work but it doesn't really help. spiders, man, spiders. not beats. as i've said all along the math here is weak. submit to my will!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:p.s. yay somebody finally got one of my ghetto jokes tongue

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Yea i know what spyderz are. Just didnt know that the WW HAD to go both sides to be classed as "full" or "real". If you had watched THIS you would have see that in the daytime video "dragonwing" most of it is 4-5 btb WW spyda wraps.



Thanks for the real simple explanation, i totally get it. biggrin



And thats what Glass was doing in the "paris hilt.." *cough* vid... wink huh ubblol

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1092213074)


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:i use schatz' definition of a full ww.



this can be applied to poi/clubs swinging same direction or opposite direction, parallel/same-time or follow-time/split-time.



the full ww combines the front ww and the btb ww.

as such, it includes all the possible carry combinations of top/bottom and front/back.



front and back ww's are the 2bt spider based wallplane weaves spun in front or btb, sometimes referred to as lower fountains and are described by miss jillings in her online book published here.



i don't get why the definitions need to be changed - they cover all variations already.



a ww that constantly goes from one side to the other and back, only using carries can only be spun in opposite direction (i.e. butterfly) - in follow-time you need to put in some full circles to get to a position to spin a carry again.



imho, a description of just the carry part of a ww is less fundamental than half and full ww's as defined by schatz.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:redface
surely i should be the last person to change an established name wink

i suppose i just never understood that there already was a "full" WW defined. knowing all the moves already discouraged me from really studying the definitions. but to me the bfly form is the purest WW, it all starts with how you do the math though. plus there's moves that will stretch that clubs definition, what if you turn/carry once or even twice with your hands crossed? but anyways, i suppose i can do a full WW, cause i can do any combo TTN and weave carry around my body either follow or even staggered arms and combos with double and triple carries. but i'm not sure what you mean yet by "full", i'll keep looking at that link and see if it strikes a bell. ubbloco
sorry i guess i just hijacked your thread with a bunch of rubbish talk redface


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

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Posted:i'll scan schatz and send it to ya if yoo like - just for reference.

i'll have to find it first of course ubbangel

like i said before, all these ways of describing moves are legitimate imho.

they all have advantages and disadvantages.
a perfect example is the hyperloop/airwrap duality thing - you can take one or the other as a base move and the resulting decriptive structures have associated advantages and disadvantages.

all of these ways of considering poi moves and movesets kind of add up in your head to an overall understanding - which in turn helps us to teach, discuss and share.

like you use spiders to teach in person but understand that that is hard to describe in text and as such, the fwd/rev weave system is also invaluable for teaching, especially here on hop.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Ariad
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Member Since: 2nd Aug 2004
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Posted:I still don't get it S:

What is WW? and what is TTN?

Please use simple language, my English is not very good.


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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:WW = waist wrap. The definition is here:

http://www.semlyen.net/cosmosjugglers/lib/lesson17.pdf
br>
TTN = thread the needle. It's in the lessons section here smile


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:studied the link...

okay, then really the thing that hung me up was that i figured you meant the same thing by "full" as i did...



i take my comment earlier back! i definitely recommend learning to do a full bfly waistwrap!



i also recommend it in all the other patterns, as well as taking the one i call "full"- let's say "mirrored waistwraps" and spiffing it up in to double and triple carries. for instance the weave waistwrap can be done in the same "2 circle, 2 carry, 2 circle" pattern, if you double every other carry.





but "mirrored WW", i'd say split time is enough, wink


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:boy all my trinity discussions probably made no real sense either lolsign footinmouth shrug

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

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Posted:arashi, i don't know what double and triple carries are dude.



i could guess but i'd probably guess wrong ubbrollsmile

the most natural definition of a double carry for me is a top carry followed by a bottom carry.

that means a transition from a particular plane (say in front wall plane), back to the same plane with the poi head travelling all the way round the body and only completing one full circle (i.e. all in 1 beat).

by that definition, a triple carry (top-bottom-top/botoom-top-bottom) would go from front plane to back plane (or vice versa) by going all the way round the body first and then behind in one beat (this needs a 180 deg body turn and god-like plane control).



and no, none of your trinity discussions made any sense at all - we tried telling ya at the time but you just kept on dropping the hints with the crypticness... ubbloco tongue wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:hehe

well that is not exactly what i meanl, but i can do that too ubbloco makes muscle with arm, hands out a magnifying glass for all to observe

"carry" to me is basically a half circle. wherever it is in the pattern. so triple carry would be a beat and a half. but i think... you're guessing i mean dividing one beat into triplets but i'm just talking three half circles.

didn't you know _yet_ that i'm the baddestest? devil ubbangel



trinity- and now if you read them with what _i_ consider(edit:considerED) a WW in mind when i say(edit:said) WW, then they'll make craploads of sense. i swear i'm not cryptic, just misunderstood in a sea of letters! but good luck trying to find all that old stuff wink



so if a "mirrored" WW isn't a "full" WW, what is? by full" i suppose you mean the _exact_ same thing as a weave WW but in bfly's, right? but don't you just cut out the unnecessary full circle in the bfly version of the term "WW" so you have a circle carry circle carry circle carry, etc.?

and now do you see why i thought i knew what you were talking about? the overall pattern is almost the same.

EDITED_BY: arashi (1092673328)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:Full WW is same direction but goes in front and BTB... I can't really explain it better than the link I posted does I'm afraid...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:yuppo...
now i'm trying to decipher how you are applying that same "full" word in the clubs link to bfly, it's described as a weave- as you can see there's at least two different ways, and sorry we've been misunderstanding each other
one way (what i'm learning you mean by "full") is to keep the same full circle that replaces every other carry as in the weave, so circle, carry, circle, circle: and again.
the other ("mirror" which i've thought you guys meant for some years now, and which i've called a bfly WW) is to cut out the unnecessary full cirlce in bfly version, so circle carry, circle, carry: again

but if that's what you mean at least now we can start to make sense to each other ubbidea

cole, tsk tsk... i bet you could get these in no time, you're just juggling too much! bloody jugglers!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

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Posted:yeah, gotcha now and i completely see where the confusion arose - your 'full bf ww' (mirrored ww) is similar to the move described in my first post here but *very* different from a full ww.



ubbangel



double and triple carries: wicked - i guessed right biggrin

i do double carries (the 'round the body weave thing' that was being talked about and played with around a year or so ago uses lots of double carries) and i sometimes spin triple carries but always both poi follow-time and with a pirouette (a 360 turn), never as part of another 'move'.



circle-carry-circle-carry ww's like the one you describe ('mirrored ww' is a great name by the way - it completely explains what it is) i can't do in weave.

i can do a front ww variation where one hand spins the in front circle while the other carries under or over it but i don't really understand how your mirrored ww would fit in follow-time (weave) to be honest - the use of a double carry is a good clue to get me started though smile



the reason i didn't take out the unneccesary circles when i described this (the bf version of a regular btb ww) and redefine it as a 'full bf ww' is that imho it is less useful when it comes to working out further variations.

undeniably it is a handy move to learn though and i may find that that opinion strengthens as i learn the equivalent weave based variations.



as far as definitions are concerned though, by 'full ww' i will always mean the move that is a combination of btb and front ww's (as described somewhat confusingly in jillings) - the reason being that this definition of full ww is then fundamental - it works in all directions and all poi spin directions, and it contains *all* the elements that the variations use (it has circles in all 6 hand positions and contains all the possible carries).

EDITED_BY: coleman (1092671005)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:Written by: coleman
i don't really understand how your mirrored ww would fit in follow-time (weave) to be honest - the use of a double carry is a good clue to get me started though smile


ubblol well don't spend to omuch time on this i just threw that out... you have to go through many kinds of hand positions to make this pattern work, and at that point we've left basic patterning and just trying to see how far we will go to be geeky ubblol


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:ugh. because i still call the weave form you call a ww, a ww, we just had slightly different forms for the full bfly definition.



so to trinity the mirror WW move, the back plane carry would be flat and the two front would be at 60'. split time trinty bfly "mirror WW" is one of the base forms of a trinity family as it goes through each corner and makes the transitions easy to practice repeatedly. but you can spin trinity anywhere, and if you are doing more complex moves like inside bflies and inside weaves you probably are.



either way you spin the corners, if you play with how much you pivot your body to complete each front circle of a btb WW, you can overcome the flexibility issue by turning your body to make the hand position more like btb- only as much as you need to, or as much as the dance move you are doing requires. the more flexible you get (i've done yoga for years now to overcome the WW move) the less you will need to pivot at the corners.



for a true "equilateral" trinity "mirror WW" you would need to pivot less for your degree of flexibility than for the same move in "box" form, because you're shooting for less angle. but trinity is _only the angle at the corners,_ iow you CAN spin trinity "in the box" by pivoting before your corner and draggin it around to go to flat in the front plane as well... a fine point, but it might help you understand what i mean by "trinity".

sorry i keep talking about mirror WW's but i thought you might like to know what trinity is finally rolleyes


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Well if i cant get to call them WW im going to call these "orgasim's" tongue



(10 sec clip of variated orgasim's) ubblol



Http://darkjedisith.spymac.net//Orgasim.wmv
br>


Other than f@cked up, what would you call those?

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1092733884)


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:woot woot!
watched it literally as i was flying out the door at my buddy's just wanted to say it felt SOOOOOOO good to see somebody doing a 7 beat so nicely, still hadn't ever seen a hopper do one in in person, makes me think "wow maybe sometimes people DO understand me" biggrin
weavesmiley


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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simian
simian

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Posted:i spent much of today thrashing around looking silly and hitting myself with WW bfly thingies
luckily i was alone in the woods with no audience but the pinemartins and muntjacks, and the swearing and falling over soon drove them away...

anyway

i can just about manage to carry from one butterfly waistwrap to the other, but it breaks down after not many iterations... feels groovy though. doing it with a beat behind the back is very hard, and makes me remember that i've never really got all this opposite direction stuff.

but yeah, just wanted to say funky thread clap

ooh, i liked this bit too:
Written by: ICoN
As for a full WW's are you talking about when both arms are waste wrapped at the same time?


that wants it's own thread that does...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:oops saw that wrong
watched it again (sorry dragon i was late)
still loved it anyways ubbangel
fire is fun ubbrollsmile


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

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Posted:oh
thanks coleman
i must say i really like that other breakdown too, a different kind of symmetry, i've been "mulling" it over during my day
it gives me a neat new perspective


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Cantus
Cantus

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Posted:what the hell are you all talking about?

I was with you for the talk of Coleman's stature and Bammers' bottom. Then you all turned into poi geeks and lost me....


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

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Posted:yeah, this is all badass, bluecat showed me a waistwrapped vaiation the other day, disgusting, fromt btfly WW (the position, arms in front, poi btb) to behind the shoulder butterfly to behind the other shoulder to other side front WW. it dosnt work, oh no.



funnily enough (sorry im catching up on threads here) while i was away my friend turned round and did the original move coleman describes, and as cleanly as anyone wouls like. what she did was definatly ttn. when here hands were at the left hip (poi infront) the right hand was on the ouside and the left nearest the hip, and vice versa the other way.



ww ttns are just something that came to me one day over the summer, i wasnt trying, but i found i could do them. i love that stuff.



arashi, mirror splitime ww has got to be the next thing, oh yeah, that would be lovely.



T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
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