Penguin SvenPenguin SvenSILVER Member
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic


Posted:
Hey all.

Sorry, but I am so confused,

Whats the difference beetween and air warp and a hyperloop.

Ive been thinkin and practising, and I think I am doing hyperloops....but havn't a clue,

So if anyone has anyideas...plz help.

Good luk
-Steve redface

"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner


musashiimusashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
airwraps stay on one side of the body(wrapping and unwrapping). Hyperloops cross the body to unwrap. Thats _extremely_ simplistic as far as explanations go, hope it helps

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


vanizevanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
ditto what musashii said.

a hyperloop is a type of airwrap that doesn't change the momentum direction of the poi to acheive the unwrap, which means you have to bring it across the body (what most people do) or turn with it.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


Penguin SvenPenguin SvenSILVER Member
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic


Posted:
Nice, thanks all.

That helps to know what I have done right and wrong.

ubbrollsmile

"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner


Vestergaardstranger
22 posts
Location: Aalborg, Denmark


Posted:
The terms can be very confuzing, I agree!!!

Chr.

DomDomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
"Whats the difference beetween and air warp and a hyperloop."

Depends who you ask - there are those you'd disagree with the above definitions. Basically it's not worth worrying about - just try to do as many variations of everything as you can and then stop doing the ones that aren't pretty. easy!

Penguin SvenPenguin SvenSILVER Member
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic


Posted:
smile

Easy, Thanks

"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner


BlackFireJackmember
167 posts
Location: Bergen , Norway


Posted:
ey ey ey.....if I do one of my butterfly Hyperloops in front of my body....then its an Airwrap? Then what if I do an Butterfly Hyperloop (tangling) in front of my body. With a 2time 'double wrist wrap(at the same time)' and isolate the butterfly hyperloop to a forward weave....dont sound like a airwrap to me....
I always thougt an airwrap was when you tangled the wicks together and the poi's ending up in going the other way.....like a wrap.....but in the air.....

I like Fire.. :)


MikeIconMikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
BFJ,

I think tangling the chains and having them untangle in the opposite direction would be damn near impossible. Would be an incredible feat if you can do it though and I think we'd all agree to let you name all the tangles whatever you like smile

Would also love to see a vid of that smile smile smile

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


MikeIconMikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
Unless youre talking about doing it in horizontal plane which is cake tongue

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


Dragon7Dragon7GOLD Member
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand


Posted:
Umm no its pretty easy actually. The hard part is doing it @ 100/mph and not getting hit in the eek and going down in a ring of fire wink

vanizevanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
well, the way I see it personally, if there is no momentum direction change for the poi between the tangle and untangle, then it is a hyperloop type of airwrap, but I didn't invent the term, so I am not the authority - that is just my definition, which is obviously influenced by my physics studies.

but then if you are talking about what I think you are talking about in that butterfly tangle, you don"t really get the angular speed and circle radious change from shortening the rotation point of the poi (at least not for a visually satisfying length of time), which seems to be the whole point of calling a hyperloop a hyperloop, since that shortening via the tangle makes the poi go all hyper.

So perhaps I should ammend my definition of hyperloop to say that it is an airwrap that causes a sudden change poi angular speed (as opposed to a gradual one that you can get out of some types of airwraps) and rotation radius, but that does not require a change in the momentum direction of the poi to unwrap.

clear?!?!?!? (if so, please explain it to me confused).

anyway, that is just my view. I'm sure you can find others that are equally valid. Is suspect many ppeople here would put a much tighter definition on hyperloops.

Extensive definitions such as mine about such an ephemeral trick are absurd really, and I am just using it as a mental excercize and a way to avoid getting back to actually working...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


spiralxspiralxveteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
I tend to define hyperloops as a type of airwrap where the tangle moves between planes rather than remaining in one plane. It may not be the most precise definition but it's got the advantage of being simple...

Butterfly airwraps don't normally change the direction you're spinning in but if you tangle close to the head then you can I think, although it's generally something that happens to me when it all goes messy. Might try and practise it at some point to see if I can do it smoothly.

You can change direction in hyperloops by twisting the axis around... I've just about got the one in Rev's thread here where you start with a clockwise airwrap in front of you and twist it around so you come out of it anti-clockwise. Pretty tricky stuff though.

"Moo," said the happy cow.


colemancolemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
i tend to use spiralx's definition there smile

and as for using tangles to change the direction of the poi, i've only ever seen one example that doesn't look like its a complete mistake...

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


vanizevanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
dang it, now you got me thinking about trying to write up the hamiltonian for the mechanical physics situation you just to described to see how/if the angular momentum vector changes.

curses....

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


vanizevanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
Written by: spiralx


I tend to define hyperloops as a type of airwrap where the tangle moves between planes rather than remaining in one plane. It may not be the most precise definition but it's got the advantage of being simple...




that is an easier way of saying it, and probably as close to capturing the essence of the idea as anyone has houghts in their brain concerning hyperloops anyway.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


colemancolemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: vanize

to see how/if the angular momentum vector changes.




the angular momentum vector for (tangled) poi spinning clockwise in front of you would be pointing directly away from you, originating from the tangle point.

in normal airwraps/orbitals/hyperloops the angular momentum vector should get smaller in magnitude over time due to friction (unless you apply a force such as the isolation-like motion rev is always on about) but the direction shouldn't change.

the only way the direction of the ang mom vector will change is if the plane of the tangled poi is rotated.
a change in speed of rotation about the axis of the ang mom vector will only affect magnitude, if at all.

turning the plane of tangled poi is really tricky due to conservation of angular momentum and the fact that the only method you have of applying force to the system (ie. via the strings of the tangled poi) is connected to the it in a very complex way that has the potential to change the mechanics.
eg. pulling the strings shortens the radius the tangled poi are swinging in, or even simply having one string longer other makes the system exteremely complex.

i say its not worth even trying to model, unless of course you need a subject for a thesis...

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


vanizevanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
yeah, ok, that is what I was saying a while ago, but then the post came along about the hyperloop going from CW to CCW - and I was trying to visualize in my head if that meant a change in the momentum vector direction or just a change in the observer's perspective of it.



I think this could be succesfully modeled using a less complex system (neglact friction, simplify the chainto say 2 segments, etc), but then, I'm not even sure if I am correctly visualizing what was meant by that move description anyway, so really there is nothing to work from.



It also happens that I am sitting here doing programming of a model of high altitude (400 km) neutral particle (as in not charged atoms) high latitude (above 60 degrees) thermospheric winds and I'm already stuck on a complex angular momentum problem and the whole thing is sort of stuck in my head as the way I am thinking right now and so someone comes along and posts something like that, and well... curse them! rolleyes



I come here to get away from this stuff, and I've been drawn back in - HELP!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


colemancolemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
ubblol



can i come work with you - i'm bored here rolleyes





but yeah, that move is seriously f*cked up - like you were saying, to rotate the tangled poi around that axis (ie. the horizontal axis going through the tangle point in the same plane as the poi are spinning) you need to change the ang mom quite a bit.



which is fine if:



1. you can apply force to the system - no problem cos you're standing on the ground and are much, much more massive than the poi



2. aplly that force via the primary axis of rotation (the ang mom vector) - not so easy since the physical connection between the force being applied (your hands) and the tangled poi is highly flexible.



thats where i see a problem in modelling it.



too many assumptions mean a useless model and since friction is the most important factor here (rev says he gets an extra turn in the tangle so as to create a knot that can be used to more easily apply force) it needs to be included.



but the friction is so bloody complex in system like that i would much rather shut my eyes and pretend none of it is really there wink

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


RevRevBRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA


Posted:
being named a few times I had feel I must contribute..

ok.. on the notion of dirction changing tangles.. they come for me in 4 variaties..
1) the wrap.. but oi... that's kinda gimping the goal of our discussion..

2) the twist wrap.. when letting the poi twist together liek a string version of a thruwrap type tangle.. if done near the poi heads, the poi twist, bounce, untwist..
I liek to dpin with my twist and slowly come to a stop.. hold a sec... then go back the other way right ebfore it finsihes twisting... helps move with it a little better and makes it mroe reliable and smooth imo.. though I have to say this takes serisou skill with sticks.. because you have to be on the money timewise.. the poi heads won't hit unless you have a nice knot where it connects to the stick..

3) there's a version of the above that can even be done with the kinda tangles that happen between the hands..like a inverted weave done at the strings rather then the hands.. but also works with the twist kinds...it involves a flip.. and I can't say this has ever been anythingmore then an accident that happens quite often... with the twist.. the process is the same as above but it unravels on the insidebetween the arms.. but still wall planed.. and swings back to the outer plane as it untangles.. but the fact that it works with the between the hand tangels kinda boggles me.. I can only assume that it has something to do with changing from like a forward to reversehand positioning.. but even then it escapes me as to how that works.. considering momentum comes to a stall and erupts again, my best guess is that it getts enough friction like the knot hold the poi heads together and the jolt back my kickstarts.. I dont know.. but I classify as different from the second because it works with tangled buzzsaws..

4) the stuff in the clip.. see as logn as the poi are between the hands.. one will tangle and the following poi will untangle as it follows.. understanding that.. you just have to spiral them.. but you have to move it to a point further up or back in the system.. thats the part that makes it isolation like.. because you willkeep a constant relative speed.. but where as an isolation seems that frictionless harmony of the tanlge/untanlge process by maintaining a gap.. this seeks to keep them tight together... and so the poi are spinning as they normally would give or take a little.. your just making sure to apply even force to their axis.. and when you think about that.. the vector force ahs to be applied in the same direction relative to the poi circle.. their orbit... never changes.. relative each other.. if that makes any sense..and so as that poi circle shifts the vector shifts.. and hence the spirally hand patterns.. never really uderstoofd it until coleman went on.. lol..

now I've gotten forgot my point if I had one.. so if this helps someone yay.. if not it helped me.. and for that I'm thankful..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


Penguin SvenPenguin SvenSILVER Member
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic


Posted:
BFJ.......i haveno idea what the hell you are talking about, but agree with Icon, need a video.

butterfly airwraps....soundslike I need a search

Sounds like the simplist andmost acurate discrition, would be from spiralx.

Air warp that tangles on oneside of yourboday anduntangles on the other side.

Their is a great video ate www.spherculism.com (hope I spelt itright)
Have to become a member to see it. but wworth it i'd say.

"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner


Penguin SvenPenguin SvenSILVER Member
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic


Posted:
Vanize, thanks forthephysics class, but youlost mewhen youstarted using big words like "and"

I got really confused when you used words like"vector".

nevermind "hamiltonian"

Steve

"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner


RevRevBRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA


Posted:
actuaslly dantanas vid shows the smae thing only a lot clearer then the video I took of itchell way back when...

dantanas vid should be in the video section under nexus (slow motion) or something like that..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


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