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Forums > Other Toys > Contact Juggling - Advanced Discussion

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:This was inspired by the following post on Jugglingdb.com
Jago Promo Clip Discussion
A quick summary would be that the video in question is, whilst of a high standard, nothing new in the realms of CJ - saying he's just ripping off Michael Moschen.
Lots of counter arguements, nit-picking, good points, pointless points etc etc.

I have to say, from my (admittedly limited) experience of different CJ'ers - they do tend to stick to the slow, mesmeric style - Possibly the "Moschen" style (?)

There are a few people (myself, possibly included) who are trying to develop more dynamic styles - incorporating modern dance styles; Liquid, waving, popping, gliding to name a few.

Ryan (Canadian CJ'er extrordinaire) made a lovely post about CJ being all about isolations - Either the ball is isolated, or the CJ'er is isolated. Whether this is their fingers are iso'd during a butterfly, the arms is iso'd during an arm roll or whatever...

Partly out of curiosity, partly out of inability - I'm trying to less and less butterfly-based moves and more and more isolations. Every CJ'er does butterflies, cages etc - and I don't really want to learn what others have done. It's such a new art form I don't see why each and every CJ'er can't go off in their own direction.

I still do lots of "technical" stuff - just to keep me in practice and open up new avenues, but my main (current) focus is glides and waving - whilst doing little with the ball other than isolating it...

Just wondered what people think smile
Is CJ inherantly slow and mesmeric or is it stuck in a bit of a rut?
Is anyone else trying new things/directions?

(I would have posted this in on contactjuggling.org but the forum their is a nightmare to use wink )


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Glåss
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Posted:smile

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Durbs
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Posted:That's it? That's your contribution?
LOL

Too much swing methinks wink
hug


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Posted:kelvin oh kelvin where are you? wink

wonder if he's still playing with some sticks. if so then he'll be comfortably the best stick-bloke this side of pluto rolleyes

great discussion there. if you like that sort of thing. my opinion pretty much follows your long post drew.

but been wondering lots about plagiarism recently. cause i've been writing lots of new routines. one of which has more than a nod to D and D hug, and one which is a luke-alike(mr Burrage) only not nearly as good...one is a cj routine like a few others with floaty style and a bit of kelvin thrown in.

what should i do?(rhetorical, cause both are original routines with nods erather than as implied in the jDB discussion complete rips-off.)

where does inspiration and influence stop and direct borrowing begin?
mmmmintellectual property arguements ubbloco

hugs for the link
R


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Who's Kelvin? confused

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Posted:kelvin callas(sp?)
contact juggler extraordinaire and all round lovely fella.
he does contact like noone i've ever seen. very martial arty and strong, unlike most blokes(myself included) who go all feminine and smoooooth and slinky he plays like bruce lee would. ubbloco

and hes truly one of the nicest people in the juggling world.

hug


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:I guess it's quite difficult to be truly original with CJ movement...

The moves just work better slowed down, and add a bit of slinkyness into it for added effect and you've basically got to where 90% of the CJ'ers are.

I've tried doing it really fast to some Drum n Bass - but it's both hard and looks cack.

What I'd love to see (Although won't learn ever cos you look silly) would be some really good 'Botting with some slick CJ shhhtuff going on - I think the difference between the jerkiness of botting combined with the fluidity of the ball would look lovely.

So what does the Kelvin guy do when you say martial arty stuff? Lots of Tai Chi kinda movement, or butterfly kicks the ball in to a wall? wink

*searchs for the CJ graemlin*


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why
BRONZE Member since Mar 2004

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Posted:Quote:

Is CJ inherantly slow and mesmeric or is it stuck in a bit of a rut?
Is anyone else trying new things/directions?

from a non-CJer (well... VERY VERY early stages of learning) the faster moves can seem as though there is less control (as mcp keeps telling me with my poi spank )
There is always the magical aspect of contact... which tends to be the slower and/or fluid parts to it. But just because it's convention, doesn't mean you can't start something different


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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

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Posted:really clean body popping and robotic stuff ( i assume that this whats this means) - 'Botting with some slick CJ shhhtuff going on'
- See nika - old skool london CJ 1 ball.
Nika and one ball paul were the first 2 I ever saw cutting CJ with body popping about 6 - 7 years ago,
source of all this stuff

above smile - means I'm too busy developing new material and styles. with 4, 7 and 8 balls today to spend time typing

Moschen style is basically neutral CJ style. But in "light" he isnt as slow,or as smooth as you remember.
London CJ oldskool are generally much slower and have far smoother style especiall in isolations.

read the related thread on CJ.org to see really why ragatz lost his rag on jugglingdb. he objected to someone else being described as a creative juggler because he feels that he has a monopoly on this title.
ubbrollsmile


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:*sigh*
So - Slow's been done, botting, popping and waving's been done, glides have been done...
What's left?
Strobing (Damn, that would be hard)
Elsewhere-esque liquid (Extreme body-waves)
Swing? wink
Mime *shudder*
Inverted Foot-CJ

I've given up on multi-ball stuff for the moment - Been trying 4 ball pyramids and they always collapse and then I cry.
One ball's much more fun smile

Oh - and what counts as oldskool these days?


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bluecat


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Posted:ubblol

incidentally mr glass you'd be impressed with the progress of tree up to now. her arms been [censored] so a contact ball is about the only thing shes been able to practise with for ages and it shows.... ubblove

can't wait to see some noo stuff from ya. ejc? paris with the uber-juggler-teachers the week before(me ian and ross going from here to be studentious...)

from all the bits i find on mr moschen i get less and less impressed with him as a person each reading. blatantly very good at what he does. but uber-possessive, as are quite a few top level jugglers/performers frown. not for me m'afraid. if it was, i'd have lots of beltane stopped wink. and not do anything myself cause apart from maybe 20 tricks in total(accross the board of every prop i play with) i've nothing original....and thats a pretty loose definition of original too.

much love
R


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Durbs
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Posted:Do you think there are many (if any) areas of CJ which are completely untapped?

A bit like when Isolations came into poi, or Contact Staff begun to spread - I've never had a creative mind and am a bit rubbish at coming up with ideas, but I can't really see any other ways ball CJ can develop... It's either body movement or ball movement (obviously biggrin )

It was interesting to see Jago's hoop manipulation, and playing with Ryan's perspex blocks was intriguing (A rotating enigma, arm rolls) - Is this the next stage in CJ - different props?

At what stage does "Contact Juggling" become "Object Manipulation" ?

(Answers on the back of a postcard)


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thor


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Posted:i don't care if it's original or not, it's damned annoying.

i've seen much better cj (and various other performer promo) videos than that


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Yeah, Drew said something along those lines - "some of the sloppiest isolations I've seen Jago do" or something like that.

I've never seen him so can't comment - although I do agree, as a promo it didn't have some real "wow" moments which you would expect from a promo video...

But then again, we're looking at it from the point of view of CJ'ers - Mr. Agent or Jo Public who hasn't seen it before would still be dazzeled by it I expect.

But with CJ it would be nice to have more variation. With poi, everyone (well, most people) have very different stlyes; some jerky, some smooth, some ultra-tech etc... Yet with CJ there doesn't seem to be that variety... (Drew, Ryan & Alex are notable exceptions, each having wicked personal styles)

I dunno, I haven't seen *that* many contact jugglers, so maybe I'm not in the place to comment - and I know that I still do lots of flowy smoothy stuff, but I'm trying to develop movement at the same time as my actual ball skills (and poi, staff, rope dart, chain whip...)


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Glåss
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Posted:>At what stage does "Contact Juggling" become "Object Manipulation" ?
it always is.

Better questions to ask this year:
At what stage does object manipulation become dancing?
or
Is OM a lead/follow partner dance with an inanimiate partner?
or one i know durbs has been working on...what is the best footwork for an isolation?

>Do you think there are many (if any) areas of CJ which are completely untapped?
There are hugh fields of CJ and OM that you probably haven't seen.
or you have seen only 1 move of and not seen the potential of the whole family .
and what about kelvin and Thomas, Franc, Dafne and ludvik, Dan and Andy and the rest of the european 1 ball masters.

>i've seen much better cj (and various other performer promo) videos than that
Which ones?
Jago, is one of the UK old school master - one of my inspirations, super slow super smooth
If you want to see him playing as I always picture him... on stage
see silver pauls video from the BCJC 2003,

> but I can't really see any other ways ball CJ can develop...
Your limitation is yours.
Don't look to other CJ'ers for inspiration, get out of contact, g take a lot of dance lessons.o learn tai chi, study newton, and the dynamics of motion. Any thing that involves quality of movement. Bring that into OM

Smiles
Drew


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Your limitation is yours

Ok, I can't see in visual terms how ball CJ can develop, I can see there is plenty of space for it to develop, but I've always been rubbish at being inventive so what I was saying is I can't personally see how my CJ can develop other than in what tricks I can do and what I can do with my body...



Is OM a lead/follow partner dance with an inanimiate partner?

Hmmm, but who's leading, the ball or the manipulator?

I don't think the ball has to be inanimate - the CJ'er can make it come alive (Which you do, but I would say Silverman doesn't)



what is the best footwork for an isolation?

Russian Cossak dancing (although it's very hard to keep the ball iso'd wink )



Don't look to other CJ'ers for inspiration, get out of contact, take a lot of dance lessons, learn tai chi, study newton, and the dynamics of motion. Any thing that involves quality of movement. Bring that into OM

Oh, but I don't have the time ubblol But yes, I see what you mean, and is what I've been trying to be doing (Notice the "trying")


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coleman
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Posted:Quote:
Mime *shudder*



*shakes head*

that's what gets me about cj'ers...

mime involves lots of body isolation and illusions based on accentuated body movement.

which is exactly where a lot of newskool cj is going.

confused

so why be scared of the positive aspects of mime?

just because we make fun and take the piss out of its traditions (costume, facial expressions, we all know why mime doesn't pay...) doesn't mean there's nothing it can offer.

how many cj'ers have you seen pretend that their ball is stuck in one spot in space?

they move round it, try to push it, pull it, blow it but nothing will move that sucker.

that's mime!

so basically, i don't undertsand.
why not look there for more inspiration instead of shying away from it like its the only normal looking kid at the circus school...?


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Cos it looks stoopid! biggrin

Ok, well, for me, mime is more of a comedy act (and we're talking street level mime here) - which I think erm... is bit poo, and doesn't mix with where I'd like to take my CJ.

I'd rather develop my CJ to level where I am dancing with it - not to a level where I can convince everyone that my ball's an immovable object.

Of course there are some great mime artists out there, and it does involve a heck of a lot of skill - it's just not for me smile


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:and yes, CJ is basically a form of mime...

But it's just not for me - don't forget to insert "in my opinion" at the end of everyone's post - Mime just isn't for me smile


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coleman
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Posted:Quote:
I'd rather develop my CJ to level where I am dancing with it - not to a level where I can convince everyone that my ball's an immovable object.





eek does that mean you won't be working on ball isolations any more then... wink



have you seen phax?



that's the kind of mime influence i'm on about.



imo wink


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Hmm - that's what I believe is known as "Animation" (with a hint of strobing) in the world of dance (From my very limited knowledge gained from the Reflective forums)

Is it mime? Yes, probably... just not "traditional" mime
Is it dance? Definitely

My original statement - " mime? *shudder* " was more talking about the white-face stripey shirt type of mime...

Aaaaaanyway, quick summary - I don't like all that theatrical mime stuff, not a huge fan of animation (takes a lot of skill, but doesn't float my boat the way liquid does), but there is a lot of skill and doubltess stuff to learn from all of them...

IMO wink


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:After second viewing, I would say he's doing "animation" but miming with it.

In the same way that I want to be able to liquid/pop/wave but with CJ (or vice versa)

smile



and OH MY GOD - The Mr Steen video is REALLY good biggrin


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Glåss
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Posted:animations - Like the incredibly cute "happy tree friends" ubblol
my favorite one is this weeks featured episode - eye candy
thanks for the great link cole :omg:
OMG give those boys a follow.

In summary:
Some mime is good
some mime is bad

and theres 2 definations of inanimiate too which is interesting



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Posted:yaaaaay for phax. seems to have been soooo much better at EJC(imo). d'you think it was because it was something different, whereas here its in t'middle of lots of similar stuff..?

ta for the link cole


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Glåss
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Glåss

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Posted:and every performace is better live...
Slow motion movement doesn't seems half as effective in film


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:heh - I thought the same, i'm too used to having jerky videos on my peddle powered machine at work smile

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Posted:yeah i'm with ya on that one andreu.

we sit down and bitch about every single on eof our performances when we see tham on vid. grr.



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coleman
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Posted:Quote:
we sit down and bitch about every single on eof our performances



if i were sitting next to you i'd say "that's cos you're all rubbish!".

but i'm not and seeing as how text can be so easily misconstrued and adding to that the fact that you're far too far away to punch-hug me, i won't say a word wink


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Posted:biyatch.

hug(with extra punch)


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Martial Arts and Liquid anyone?
Click Me smile


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mcp
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Posted:That's a nice vid. Nice bit of preying mantis style in there. I've just started learning preying mantis style (don't tell anybody) and it seems like it is the ultimate wrist warmup ever, and quite close to liquid in some of its arm and hand movements. (It's mostly arm and hand movements.)

thanx!


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