Page: 123
_Aime_
_Aime_

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hastings
Member Since: 2nd Jan 2004
Total posts: 4172
Posted:ok, today i found out that a girl in my year gave birth to her baby during the week. i knew she was pregnant, it was just a shock like oh, she actually has a baby now. it got me thinking. what if I had a baby now? it would totally screw my life up. she's 14 now so when shes 20 he'll be what, 6?
my friends have been discussing whether they would keep it or abort it, and we all know that none of us would be stupid enough to put ourselfs in that situation in the first place, but i seriously don't know what i would do. from the male point of view, a friend said he would ask the girl to have an abortion, but if she said no he would support anyway he could which i thought was quite admirable.
for certain the father is not with her now and propably won't support her at all. and wots worse i know that there are 5 other girls pregnant in the school as well. one even in year 9 eek . i mean come on its not hard, condoms are free at clinics, and in this day and age you can hardly say you didn't know what you were doing. theres no excuse (par the odd one)
have you got any views on this? or have you known anybody who has been in this situation? its just makes me feel like 'woah' yeh silly i no but i got no other way to describe it......sorry bout spelling and grammer...im tired and sick rolleyes


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Big Andy
member
Location: Dallas, Tx
Member Since: 1st Apr 2003
Total posts: 186
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ade
Don't write her off because of the situation she is now in.
We all have our own paths to tread.



I agree with Ade 100%, this girl, may still be a child to some, choose this path well before even she was born. Now some of you may begin to say "Don't tell me my life has been planned out for me and that I can't change my fate...", and believe me, your life hasn't been planned out... just the lessons. How you learn these lessons is up to you. This girl will still have everything she needs... Family, friends... and most importantly... herself.


But you can't just assume that this girl has everything she needs. At 14, you need all that and then some to do a good job at raising a child. Not only that, but read my previous post. I explain my theory for why she may have gotten in this mess in the first place. There's a very good chance that she DOESN'T have a family capable of helping/supportingher in the way she needs. She may have friends, but if she's involved in a crew of friends that's into drugs/skipping school/ and promiscuity, then these aren't the friends that could help her in her situation either. They will only distract her from what she needs to do, or abandon her altogether. Like I was saying in my previous post, she probably has some problem that caused her to get in this situation, and that problem may very well continue unresolved and hurt the child more than it hurt her in the first place!

I'm NOT saying that you 2 are wrong and we should write her off. I certainly hope she does get the support she needs. But I feel that too many people just assume it's not as big a deal as it is....


Diner's ready dammit, I can't finish my thoughts ARGGGGGHH!!! I'l be back later!


"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"

"Welcome to the U-S-A,
We'll treat you right, unless you're black or gay, or Cherokeeeeee!!"

-Brian Griffin from "Family Guy" (the dog)

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arsn
arsn

How do you change this thing???
Location: Behind the couch...
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 1903
Posted:Quote:
Quotes originally posted by Big Andy
But you can't just assume that this girl has everything she needs.



Ok, I never said she has everything she needs, but she will have what she needs if she aims for them, and I wish her to have enough.

Quote:
Not only that, but read my previous post. I explain my theory for why she may have gotten in this mess in the first place.




Ok, I've read your post (and when I was replying, you hadn't, if you had, I would have replied to you.).
Now, first off, you claim that you are telling me your "theory" on how this happened, ok, but also understand this is your "theory"... it's not fact. And it's not how I see the world, and this subject. Now I understand that a friend of yours is going though some hard stuff right now, and granted you have a feeling on this subject, however I feel you are dismissing me, because I have different views to you...

Now, guess what, I to have a friend who has had a child at an early age, and sure I will not say that things went right for her from the start, it wouldn't go "right" for anybody, it's a true shock to the system. But she made it... she was 15, and now 20 and is the mother of a healthy child. She first went through a time of "My life is never going to be the same..." speech, but tell me, is your life the same as when you were 14 or 15... or have you learnt lessons which have changed the type of person you are?

Now back to your "theory", now, your friend may have had a hard upbringing... but that does not mean every single person (just going by your theory) has had a hard upbringing... everbody is different. I have had a hard upbringing of my own... youth shelters, kicked out of home, the works... but I to, pulled myself together.

I read your post and came across a part which read,

Quote:
I'm anxious to see how my pregnant friend handles her situation. This could be what ruins her life and the kid's life, only to start the cycle over again



I feel that you want to see her fail... Why do you see this as the situation that would ruin her and the child's life... what is stopping you from just supporting her in what she chooses to do?

I leave this here...


I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Quote:
But you can't just assume that this girl has everything she needs


that statement is quite ironic seeing as how you are making assumptions throughout your previous post that people who have sex at a young age have underlying problems and skewed views of sex. Thats a huge generalisation, yet you are fobbing off someone else for doing the same thing... Kinda confusing confused


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Quote:
she just randomly had a baby - her periods hadn't stopped and she didn't even get fat. It was the weridest thing i have ever witnessed and i have no idea how it happened.




That is how it was with me. I didn't even know I was pregnant until I was 7 months along and when they did an ultrasound they told me he had no heartbeat so to expect a stillborn. I believed the dr.'s . So when my son was born...alive and completely healthy...I was completely unprepared emotionally, mentally, and materially. I used my son as a catalyst to leave a very abusive relationship, after debating quite painfully for a week on whether or not to give him up for adoption. I even had a family lined up and a court date, but I pulled him out of it at last minute.
I was 21. I could not imagine going through all that at 14. Hell, I was not in any way, shape or form ready to be a parent at 21.
And for the record, we were using contraception when he was concieved.
I also know how cruel people can be, especially old women. I look young. My son and I have been mistaken for sister and brother on a couple of occassions. When I first had him, people would comment on the "child I was babysitting" and when I said I was his mother, attitudes changed and I was called a "moralless hussy" and such things a few times. Crap like that never helps, and it hurts quite deeply.


My sister had an abortion at 16 and a baby at 18. She was the oldest. By the time my parents got to me (she is 12 years older) I was allowed to do nothing from their being so strict. Sometimes the parents simply don't know how to be parents. Kids are all different and they don't come with instruction manuals you know!

However...my biological mother was 14 when she had me. By the law at that time she was not old enough to decide to give me up for adoption and her mother (who was only 30 at the time) insisted that she keep me and live up to her responsibilities. At 8 months old Child Protective Services found me in a crib, with a bottle of coffee and music blaring. I entered the foster system at that time. Some of my earliest memories, which were nightmares a good share of my life, were of visitations with my biological family. When I was 4 and my bio-mom 18 she was legal to sign me over for adoption, which she did. And a few months later she tried to kidnap me. I had the chance to meet these people not long after I had my son. They lied to me, unknowing that I had read the reports from CPS. I understand they wanted to look good, as if they were wonderful to me. I truly believe that they love me in thier own way and that they did the best they could for me by giving me up. My bio-mom never had any other children, and has been married unsuccessfully a few times . She has spent her life truly messed up. She herself was a victim of the circumstance in which she was brought up, and her mother the same before her. Each generation looking for validation and love through intimacy with others, instead of in real relationships, which there was no example of.
A few years ago I met a lovely young girl who would be my cousin, and she is in the same pattern as all the other women in that family. It is very sad.

It is a cycle, and only through education and actually recognizing the girls who have the issues can we break it. To me, it is alot like pointing out those who will try to commit suicide. If you look at a strong cross section of teen mom's, there are strong similarities in their lives, attitudes and self-awarenesses. My sister is bullheaded, rebellious and extremely insecure despite her confident demeanor. So has been every teen mom I have ever met. I am certain there are those who do not fit into this, but I do think it played into the circumstance some.

I agree these girls should not be judged. They are products of their environment.
I do think that there are circumstances which need to be examined around them, and addressed or their children are prone to the same fate.

I agree that they are in no way equipped to handle the responsibility of having sex or a child. Hopefully they can succeed, but it will take the help of the parents, and an acceptance of the people around them, not to mention a tremendous amount of internal strength. Unfortunately most do not rise above the circumstance.

Having debated abortion, adoption and birth...more than once, and having crossed an abortion picket line once with slanderous insinuations and mini-bibles thrown at me(for something other than an abortion btw), none of them are easy choices for an adult. A 14 year old is in no way equipped to handle that without it effecting the rest of her life in a very profound way.
..and I can speak from experience of what it can do to the child, even for a few years. I was lucky, I was released from the cycle. My adoptive family has been no jem, but at least I was given a headstart from where I was.

There are absolutely no easy answers, for anyone involved. And as a parent of a boy I must confess that I joke about "Let her mom worry about it", but in truth I have already started teaching him about abstaining and about safe sex (as spurned by things he has seen in the media and questioned me about). I think one of the worst things people do is shelter their child. My son knows what responsibility is, and when the time comes he will also know that should something happen and he not accept the responsibility I will be deeply disappointed in him. That is also something I think parents are laxed on, the expectations for the male role. Boys need to know that it is more than fun and games for them, because as it stands now, there really is no responsibility for them. I despise that.


Sorry for the long post. This hits really close to home for me.
~Pele


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Silvur
Silvur

sumthin sumin smmnm....
Location: home sweet home
Member Since: 4th Sep 2003
Total posts: 372
Posted:Quote:

i find it strange that if the father is under the age of 16 he has no leagal obligation to the child (in way of child maintenance etc), he can quite literally walk away. surely if they can prove paternety he should? ..



I don't know how the law is where you live, but in canada, it doesn't matter how old you are; if your name is listed on the birth certificate OR if a DNA test will determine that you are the father of the baby, you a LEGALLY ALLOWED to have a say in what goes on with this child. In fact, almost nothing can be done without the father's permission. Sounds great! you say, but think about the flip side of this coin.

My friend had a guy. Now this guy was a total ass. He was controlling and manipulative and emotionally abusive before she got pregnant. She tried to leave him, only to have him go completely psycotic and abusive, and threatened to kill her if she ever tried anything like that again. He then gets her pregnant. And yes, she was using contraceptives at the time. At five months, she finds herself backed into a corner and pinned against a wall with this [censored] screaming and swearing at her. He raises his fists to punch her in the face, and at that very moment his roomates broke down the door and distracted him long enough that she got away and ran screaming down the hall. She makes it out of the building and onto the front lawn, where the cops are waiting (it's 3 am) but sh*thead is right behind her. He grabs her and won't let go, and when a cop tries to talk to him, he screams to the cop to go ahead an shoot them both. Well, to shorten this up a bit, spawn-of-the-devil ends up in the psyciatric ward of the hospiotal for the next 3 months, only to be released in time for the birth of his son. He tells my friend that he's cleaned up his act and gotten off the drugs, only to show up at her parents doorstep the next night high as a kite, demanding for custody of her son. She's now in hiding, and the government won't help her because acording to the law, he is legally allowed to see his son, no matter that he is a psycotic, abusive, evil, drug-addicted sperm donor. mad mad mad


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peaches**86943
peaches**86943

thats sooooo not where i parked my car...................
Location: mareeba
Member Since: 23rd Aug 2003
Total posts: 198
Posted:first of al i would like to congratualte her on giving birth to the child and excepting the consequences of her carelessness and not having and abortion

that poor girl must be going through absolute hell at the moment she is young and now she is gonna have to wait until she can find someone to look after that child or until the child is old enough so she can go back to school that is if she is going back to school

i can on imagine what this poor girl is going through hope she gets through it the best of outcomes

meanwhile i hope to hell it doesnt happen to me umm


we cant stop here its bat country!!!!!!!!!!!

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
She waits tables and barely pays her own rent, her "baby's daddy" is mean and abusive (not physicaly but still...), does all kinds of drugs and only works about 15 hours a week at minimum wage.



BigAndy, I understand that abuse and excessive drug use is not acceptable, but I'd just like to point out that both your friend and her baby's father's jobs are not necessarily bad things. Okay, you say although she's smart, she's just "waiting tables", but that may be whats she needs socially and economically, especially considering that you mention she has co-dependency issues. I loved working part-time during my pregnancy because I made new friends in a strange city at a strange time.

I think your views on youth and sex are interesting though. Medically, if I remember correctly, a girl becomes sexually mature upon the onset on menstruation. It could be argued that this would physically be the ideal time to become pregnant, but it may not be ideal mentally, particularly in this day and age.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:Good points Spanner....and it seems Big Andy's views on life 'ruining' are mostly capitalist based. Although quite relevant a little one sided.

Quote:

It could be argued that this would physically be the ideal time to become pregnant, but it may not be ideal mentally, particularly in this day and age.



And indeed it is.....it is only our current westernised social climes that push us further away from this. In Victorian times the average age of a mother was 13, and that's only just over a 100 years ago! Now I'm not saying that I beleive it's acceptable, appropriate or encourageable, but the mother shouldn't be chastised and pigeon holed into a ruined life in this day and age....that will contribute yet more to what actually can ruin her life....no social support can do almost as much damage as no family support, if not more so.

All the best to her, I hope she learns lots and can provide her child with support, education, common sense, kindliness and above all else love.


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:interesting point actually. the age of onset for menstruation for women was at such a young age before due to the average lifespan. hence the reason women began menstruating and got married as young as 13 years old. these days however, the age of onset of menstruation is getting younger and younger (we've seen as early as 8 years old) but there is no biological or evolutionary reason for women, ahem, girls, to start that young.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Quote:
In Victorian times the average age of a mother was 13, and that's only just over a 100 years ago!



Actually that would be in Pre Victorian times. In the Victorian Era, young ladies were expected to go through finishing school to learn to become a good wife. Graduation was expected at age 16 during which the young lady would be presented socially, courted and a suitable dowry negotiated, a trousseau refined and then she would be married out. Of course, she was then expected to be with child asap, but the mothers would be around to help.
I completely agree with the no family support = damage viewpoint. That is what we are lacking, I feel, more than anything these days.

But still, to compare yesteryear to today is still not truly fair. Our society has moved through patterns where it was okay for there to be a young mother..so long as she was married. In Western culture it has rarely ever been seen as acceptible for a mother to be unwed, until recently, and even then it is an arguemented point. There were times in history when such actions would render a young girl imprisoned until the birth of the baby, the baby taken away and the girl put to death. I also have to say that because of the standards of era's past, young women were far more capable of handling children at a young age. The maturity levels of kids then and now, as well as the educational bases, are completely different. Same goes for indigenous tribes who often marry young and look 60 by age 30. They are ready, and taught, what they need to survive, and for their tribes to survive. Comparing them to the situations of the girl at hand is like comparing steak to tea, both valid and nourishing but hardly the same sustinance.




Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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bubblishis
False Eyelash
Location: New York City
Member Since: 27th Dec 2003
Total posts: 346
Posted:Pele - your story is compelling. Thanks for sharing it.

I was an accident and very nearly aborted. My mom was 28, a little different than 14. But once or twice I've looked at the issue from the other side of the coin - as the "unwanted" pregnancy. And to tell you the truth I wouldn't have blamed her for having the abortion. I don't fully understand how she pulled through - maybe it'll make more sense if I ever have a child.

Over all I think having a baby at 14 is a bad idea. Your resources are severely limited at that age. Consequently many babies of teenage parents are mistreated to varying degrees. I think the parents of that girl should have stepped in - didn't sound like that happened from the story.



All the freaky people make the beauty of the world.

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Silvur
Silvur

sumthin sumin smmnm....
Location: home sweet home
Member Since: 4th Sep 2003
Total posts: 372
Posted:Quote:
...many babies of teenage parents are mistreated to varying degrees. I think the parents of that girl should have stepped in...



I have 2 things to say to this. First and foremost, though, I do not have any children of my own, so I may be a little biased. However, My family has been a foster home for kids for the last 25 years, and I have seen more than 100 children come and go from our home, so it's not like I haven't seen the other side of the coin.

To the first statement, I have seen that in some cases babies will be mistreated by their teenage parents, although if you take a look at the mother's family history, very often you will find that her mother did the same to her, and her mother to her, and so on and so forth. Also with these mothers almost always you will find either durg abuse or alcohol abuse, or sometimes even both. But if a teenaged mother from a home that hasn't had this history gives birth and keeps the baby, nine times out of ten she will be a better mother to her baby simply because she is younger. Not that I'm saying that all 13year olds from good homes should get pregnant, but at 16, it's a heck of a lot easier to relate to a kid that a 26 year old.

To the second comment; maybe the parents of the girl wanted her to learn to walk on her own. If I got pregnant and had a kid, my parents would expect me to do it on my own. Parents often don't want to step in for fear of having the child left in their care all the time, and they probably see the situation as she got herself into this situatuion, and it's too bad, but we're not going to bail her out! I wouldn't bail out my kids. I would help them, sure, but not step in.


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peaches**86943
peaches**86943

thats sooooo not where i parked my car...................
Location: mareeba
Member Since: 23rd Aug 2003
Total posts: 198
Posted:lets just think about child birth in different countries for a sec
yes childbirth is painful but recently i watched a show where they spoke about the young girls in ethiopia who a betrothed at the age of some times as young as eight years old they become impregnated by the age of roughly 13 and by the time they are ready to give birth they are sometimes days away from the nearest midwife and they are in LABOUR for 6 days and because their little bodys are so small they can not deliever the child until it has passed away and starts to shrink when it has died because of the stress the labour buts on the girls body it gives her what is called a fistula. a fistula is a hole in the bladder and up until now the ethiopian commmuntiy thought was uncurable. they wake up leaking waste and urine all over themselves because of the hole in their bladder some times in some cases the strain of the childs head on the spinal cord causes nerve damage and paralyses this poor girl she is outcast from her community because of her stench and problem
sometime ago a young gynaecologist discoverd this and set up a free clinic over there to help cure these girls depending on spinal and vaginal damage it can take any where between 3 weeks and 3 years to help these girls but every single operation is succesful

be thankful that the poor 14 year old wasnt born in ethiopia and had the right treatment


we cant stop here its bat country!!!!!!!!!!!

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:OK I'm really sorry about this fella...

But please please noone pay too much attention to this - the anti-condom propaganda that the roman catholic church has been putting out has been absolutely nightmarish and is deeply misinformed.

Articles: 1, 2, 3, 4

Quote:
The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".



Use protection, use it wisely. I'm sorry to have to contradict your religion, but there are other people's lives at stake.
Quote:
ok here's some interesting stuff,
on average, including errors in use, fail about 40% of the time for the population
if used properly, they fail about 20% of the time.
(that was info from health class)
commonly, in the making of latex condoms (the kind supposed to protect from STDs) small holes appear that, while invisible, are often up to 3 times larger than a single sperm, and over 100 times larger than the HIV virus.
the "pill" can cause heart problems, as well as mood swings due to hormonal imbalance
IUD's can cause infection
the sponge is less usefull than a condom
the diaphragm can cause irritation, and is prone to the same problems as a condom
tubal ligations and visectomies can be irreversable, as well as costly and painfull and dangerous
it seems that the logical way to prevent std's and pregnancy is total abstinance

Now for the disclaimer:
I'm Roman Catholic, I think sex should be confined to marriage, contraception is wrong, and abortion is murder. if you want more info on my views and their scientific basis PM me, I'll either respond or, if there is enough interest, create a new thread

slainte mhath beerchug



I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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GottaLoveIt
GottaLoveIt

Sponge
Location: Stevenage
Member Since: 21st Sep 2003
Total posts: 883
Posted:I have a few things to say biggrin

Quote:
they have ruined their lives



I don't agree with this in all cases, maybe in some but I have a friend who got pregnant, her kids now 1 and he's gorgeous, she has it tough, same as every parent but you can tell she loves him from the look in her eyes and the smile when they play



Quote:
says a lot about the school i went to



My school has a lot of teenage pregnancies too, is it the school's fault??? I know it has to do with individual differences too but could the school be partly to blame? In England the amount of teenage pregnancies is rising on par with the amount of education on contraceptives... read in a newspaper... what would you do to stop it??? I had a conversation the other day and we ended up going round in circles



Quote:
How you learn these lessons is up to you - arsn



Totally well said... I've learnt a lot of my lessons from others sad/bad/fatal mistakes but some of my friends haven't mad and it seems like the only way they'll learn is by making the same mistake themselves and it feels like (for want of a better word) poo when you watch them spiral down and no matter what you say it won't help them cause they're having the time of their lives - related to everything not just pregnancies



And congratulations to others on this thread who have posted, you seem braver than I could ever be and so more real and level beerchug


Monkeys monkeys and bananas

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Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)
Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)

resident bagpiper
Location: Vermont, USA
Member Since: 12th Jul 2003
Total posts: 342
Posted:the roman catholic church itself has never put out any misleading information.

people claiming to be roman catholic may have, but there are people who do that anywhere. the statements from the Vatican contain no requirements for non-catholics, they only urge those of the faith to make choices that coincide with the church's ethical values.

if you check into my facts, they are correct, and are NOT in any way garnered from the church. they are all able to be found as warnings and notes in sex ed books, online references and warnings on birth control.

By directly attacking a religion and all views of someone from that religion due to the views of random INDIVIDUALS in that religion is like saying all African Americans are murderers because the majority of death row inmates are black. I am deeply offended by the above poster's prejudice and closed mindedness. If you will notice, I never made any comment on anothers views in this thread as right or wrong, and I would apreciate it if I was given the same respect. I do not claim that everyone of my religion is perfect, no one is. But please do not dismiss my views because of the actions/views/statements of others.



I have been fighting for a fair recognition of the validity of my religion by popular culture ever since the pedophile scandal. the same arguement applies here. My religion does not rely on the actions of other individuals. every priest, bishop, cardinal, monk, and nun in Boston could be in jail, and it would not effect the validity of my belief. conversly, there could be one thousand false, inflamatory documents published by people claiming to be catholic, and my views, facts, and opinions would be as valid as those of any Baptist, Agnostic, Atheist, or Satanist. MY VIEWS, FACTS, AND OPINIONS' VALIDITY SHOULD ONLY BE JUDGED BY THEIR INDIVIDUAL MERIT, NOT THE MERIT OF OTHER'S VIEWS.



for a further note the "pores" mentioned in the artical, do exist, as proven withou even deep investigation, by the imperfect success rate given condoms in clinical trials where non "defective" condoms are used "correctly". and the multiple medical cases of doctors contracting disease through latex gloves after working with patients and following full medical procedure. the aritcals claim of 100% impenatrability is contradicted by every sex ed book and condom disclaimer in the country. trhe only actual quotes of condoms made in these articals state very clearly that an INTACT latex condom is impenatrable. that statement is only backed by theory and very close semantics. an INTACT condom wouldn't have pores, however it is never stated how many condoms are considered NOT INTACT because of these holes



thanks for listening, and I apologise to anyone who were imposed on by this response, but I felt it was necessary to ensure the unbiased judgement of my statements. please accept my apologies for any offense I may have caused in this monologue and please continue the free discussion of ideas allowed on this board.



with regards to the views discussed in this post be ensured that they are my own, and have no active relation to and teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. do not take them as catechism, but my personal views. If you wish to learn more facts, philosophies, and or teachings of Mark 1 or the Roman Catholic church, feel free to PM me.



slainte mhath beerchug


Q:What's the difference between the Great Highland Bagpipes and the Northumbrian Pipes?
A:The Great Highland Pipes burn longer.

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Quote:
By directly attacking a religion and all views of someone from that religion due to the views of random INDIVIDUALS in that religion is like saying all African Americans are murderers because the majority of death row inmates are black.



It's taken me some time to read this whoel thread and when I came across your post I took note to answer, seriously questioning those fact.

I am Roman catholic, so he is not attacking all the views of someone from that religion. I accept that there is a lot of lies to further peoples own ends. The general rule on HOP is that if you want to post a fact, then you should post a reference to back it up.

It reminds me of when we I was a kid and we were shown this 'documentary' that conclusively proved pornography is what caused Charlie Manson (or one of them) to do all the bad things they did.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Big Andy, I feel you are making a lot of generalisations and assumptions. Accidents happen and your horse seems to have very long legs for some reason. I'll leave it there frown

I do agree with you that these kids are having sex at too young an ages though. Education is the key. There are sooooo many young people round Dublin with prams to.

I think most of it's been said so I'll leave it there....



I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)
Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)

resident bagpiper
Location: Vermont, USA
Member Since: 12th Jul 2003
Total posts: 342
Posted:look, the post said "the anti-condom propaganda that the roman catholic church has been putting out has been absolutely nightmarish and is deeply misinformed." that is not a statement at an individual, it is aimed at the catholic church as a whole.

I did not wish to post a source, but rather allow others to search for the fact and find multiple citations. if I said, "this or that text says..." people can say the text is wrong, not taking into account the number of sources that concur. I would rather have individuals check my facts for themselves on such a charged topic.

I am simply offended that, rather than contradict my fact and leave it at that, someone would make the issue my religion.

I am going to attempt to not respond to further posts on the topic, because this is a valid thread and i don't want to turn it into a flame war.

please check my statements, but do it personally. call me wrong, not my faith.


Q:What's the difference between the Great Highland Bagpipes and the Northumbrian Pipes?
A:The Great Highland Pipes burn longer.

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Fella, if you hadn't included your "disclaimer" then it would have just been your opinion

Do a search on google - Catholic HIV condom - it was one of last year's big stories.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Big Andy
member
Location: Dallas, Tx
Member Since: 1st Apr 2003
Total posts: 186
Posted:Quote:
Big Andy, I feel you are making a lot of generalisations and assumptions. Accidents happen and your horse seems to have very long legs for some reason. I'll leave it there frown


I'm not sure why so many of you seem to be deriving this from my post. I'm not generalizing anything or anyone.


My horse is no taller than anyone else's. I speak from a combination of experience and observation. I don't think I'm any better than anyone else, nor am I drawing gross generalizations about anyone. I know mistakes happen, and MY WHOLE POINT WAS THAT NONE OFUS REALLY KNOW THIS GIRL'S SITUATION. I'm not assuming anything about anyone. That was my whole point, that we shouldn't be assuming anything about this girl, and most seem to have misconstrued my post as "assuming" more about her.


My point is that on the whole, 14 years old is not ready for parenthood.


"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"

"Welcome to the U-S-A,
We'll treat you right, unless you're black or gay, or Cherokeeeeee!!"

-Brian Griffin from "Family Guy" (the dog)

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I am coming in here as a mod to ask that everyone take a deep breath before they continue to post. Pulling religion in here makes things very touchy and causes emotions to run high. This is a thoughtful conversation on what is going on in our society with young having babies. Please attempt to keep it to that. Thank you.
Pele


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Forau
member
Location: EIndhoven, Holland
Member Since: 23rd Aug 2003
Total posts: 81
Posted:Well, the problem is I think that children(yes, that's what they are) don't have any idea that a child is destroying there whole life. They only think about the kid that is a kid, not puberty(is this a correct word?), not the money problems involved, not the dangers of a kid, not the ... they don't have any idea how hard it is.
About a week ago I heared that my niece(is that correct? eh the daughter of my uncle) is pregnant.
And here it gets problematic. The familie is not the most stable situation I have ever encountered, allmost-divorce two little kid brothers who don't seem to know what being polite is, you get the idea. She is pregnant from someone out of Marocco and it's really a verry nice guy, but their relationship is not even half a year old! She says she has taken her pill(eh, you understand?) but I have my doubts, not in her honesty, but she can be quite forgetfull.
Then there is the other side, she has decided to keep the little baby. So no abbortion.
This would be OK to me if she:
-Would actually have done some education.
-Would not be making soups in a warehouse.
-Would not be 17 years old.

So, my fear is that both the girl, the boy, and the kid will not have a decent living. He has no real education, she has no real education their parents have three mouths to feed with little money(well, allmost 4 that is) and the picture is clear.

I don't really know why I wrote this, but it relieves me to have said this. smile


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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:Quote:
In the Victorian Era, young ladies were expected to go through finishing school to learn to become a good wife. Graduation was expected at age 16 during which the young lady would be presented socially, courted and a suitable dowry negotiated, a trousseau refined and then she would be married out.





Yes but I was talking of the majority of the population throughout the British Empire, not the mid to upper classes.

Quote:
But still, to compare yesteryear to today is still not truly fair





the relevance of the point was in answer to points above it, not as comparison for today's culture issues.



What you say about maturity is dead right. Youngsters these days don't generally have the life experience maturity of former times to adequately raise kids, the focus is now for accademical education as apposed to the common sense approach. But if anything will give her maturity it'll be this. Again good luck to her...she'll need it if half the folks she coms into contact with spread their negative pre-dipositioned views upon her insted of helping and supporting.



It also saddens me this turned into a religious debate, congrats on putting it back online Pele!


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:not all teen mothers fail. i have to put that out there. i'm not a fan of kids having kids, but i've seen some very determined women make sure that it works for them. my best friend got pregnant when she was 20, and i thought she was too young. the father ditched her, she moved home to have her parents help her out, she had medical complications with the pregnancy. and i love her, so i told her i'd support her no matter what she did. but when she asked my honest opinion, i told her i didn't think she was ready to have a kid. i didn't think she was thinking about all the issues involved, the struggles she was going to have. i thought she'd be throwing her life away. it's now five years later and she's still struggling, but she's a year away from getting her bachelor's and looking at grad schools. and she's essentially done it on her own. she is one of the most resourceful people i know, and she got help wherever she could find it, but she made sure that she still achieved all her goals in her life. and i am so proud of her.

so don't immediately think that someone who is a little young in your eyes to have a kid is necessarily gonna screw up their lives. yes, 14 is too young in my opinion. but it doesn't mean it's not possible.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Look, not all teen mothers fail. You can never make a 100% blanket statement like that. When I was in college, there was a classmate of mine who had a kid and she continued through her education and graduated with a degree in Art History and I think is off getting her Ph.D. somewhere.

Yet many (and I daresay most) do fail. Just as it's not fair to say that all 30-year-old moms will do a great job, it's not fair to say that all 15-year-old moms will do a poor job. But the trend does hold true.

Youth is a very busy time when we are busy setting up things that are going to carry us through the rest of our lives. That means school, working up a job, etc. Once we get older and our lives settle down a bit, it makes more sense to have a child then. That's why I wouldn't even consider it until I've finished my training. Heck, I won't even own a fish!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:i think the ame arguments are going round and round here, but they are both rhight.

1. most teen ums aren't great parents, not becuse of their personalities, but all the pressures, and also the immaturity of the parents (i mean in age, not generally)

2. despite this we must give them an inhuman amout of suppourt, seeing as most of the world seems to be against them, where education and safe sex have failed for whatever reason, they are still people with problems and emotions and need to be suppourted.


peace


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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brainstorma
brainstorma

old hand
Location: under the fairie wheel
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 1184
Posted:why is 14 seen as to young??
its only in the last say 200 yrs its seen as wrong in any society and prob about 500 in uper class societys

it also depends on social struction as to this happening in our society

it happes more prevlentry in lower class society in areas were there is less social ifrastracture to support "safe sex"

but even then when you take all procortions you can still have trouble
in my 25 yrs i have only had one girlfriend who took the pill the rest made it there personal choice not to as it messt with the bodys now this is fin there are many other ways to help stop pregnacy and it is both the male and female that have to work at this not just one party but condoms do break even if they have been put on properly i know this because i have been through to pregnacys both failed dew to miscarage but th4 fact is that both times procortion was used and failed

now getting back to the matter of this young girl
she is some one who im many ways will need support from her friends and peirs but to also it is a wasted life is to say that you are living under a rock i have 2 close friends who are both in there early 20's and mothers since there late teens and both have a very active and happy life they have the suport of there perrants so they can lead a social active life but at the same time they work full time so they can suport there children oh and they both finished highschool while having the full work load of being a mother

for those that say that it cant be done get up out of that rock you live under and realy look at the world
oh and for the religus nuts that knock this grow up and face reality not every one has to live the cooky cuter life you belive you live


"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand, strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, and screaming "WOO-HOO What a ride!"

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Well, I was a teenage mum. 19 is the higher end of the scale, but labels are sticky.

It didn't destroy me - it was the making of me smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Frodo
Frodo

old hand
Location: In a van
Member Since: 30th Jun 2003
Total posts: 1092
Posted:my parents had me when they where eighteen!!!

im now ninteen and couldnt even comprehend having a kid...

i have spoken to them about the whole thing and like spanner said, it was the making of them, without me they said that they would have been happy doing what they did (hair dresser and builder * NOT THAT THESE ARE BAD PROFESIONS IN ANY WAY)

but they realised that they wanted somthing different..... they are now both teachers, mt dad being a headteacher and my mum a head of year....

so maybe it isnt such a bad thing, if she gets out of the rut, and realises that she has to work to sort it out........ maybe she will or maybe she wont... time will tell.... but i wish her all the luck in the world. wink


passing through, this world still lives.

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