Forums > Social Discussion > The troops are in iraq, the WMD's arent.

Login/Join to Participate

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:So now that it's obvious that all we have managed to do is horribly destabilize the country, and bush has absolutly no exit plan, Large numbers of returning soldiers who went into iraq thinking they were being heros and secureing peace, protecting america, liberating the iraqi's etc etc.. are comeing back shakeing their heads. Soldiers who are wounded are being made to pay for their meals, wait for months for treatment and are generally being treated like trash by the government.

Do you really think it was worth it? Do you think we have helped iraq any?

Im not even an american and I think it's pretty horrid that so many americans are dieing while they are accomplishing so little. Seems to me this is turning into our generations vietnam pretty damn fast.


Delete Topic

woodnymph
woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk
Member Since: 14th Sep 2003
Total posts: 313
Posted:utterly senseless.....does Tony Blair remind you of a character out of *alice in wonderland*?Mad Hatters Teaparty..its either the dormouse or the mad hatter,i can't remmember which and its bugging me...
Sorry to wander off topic,i agree with you on an instinctive level...i can't throw out statistics etc.,it's just WRONG!!


Delete

joe_sixsteps
joe_sixsteps

mULti-torTOISe
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon,...
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 310
Posted:Agreed. Illegal, immoral, indefensible and JUST SO WRONG. What on earth is the value of our supposedly so wonderful democracy, if we can't even stop our own country from declaring war on another, and if we can't bring the culprits to justice afterward? Much though I despise George Bush, I feel that as a UK citizen (for now - can't wait until I get my NZ citizenship) my main responsibility is making Tony Blair accountable, somehow, for his war crimes. Do you know that, for what he has done under British law, any policeman could arrest him in the street at any time? Would that one of them had the moral courage to do so.

The Confusion Squid has many tentacles

Delete

Laytin
member
Location: bottom left of the US
Member Since: 3rd Nov 2003
Total posts: 111
Posted:You do understand that the victors of an incident are not tried with war crimes, right? First off there is nothing that either government has done that would constitute as a war crime. Secondly you are going after the wrong people.

OBL and madaS (Sadam) are the only ones that have commited a war crime.

3000 innocents killed in one attack on a clearly marked civilian target is a war crime. 3000 accumulated deaths of innocent civilians, however tragic, is not because of the definition. It is simply the definition of colateral damage. I know that it is a cold way to look at things, but you must look at things how your governments look at things.

100,000 men women and children gassed to death because they apposed the current leader of a country is a war crime. A convoy of civilians killed because of a mistake, however tragic, isnt a war crime, once again it is called collateral damage.


On the subject of WMDs in Iraq, are you forgetting that Iraq is the size of Texas.

I remember on my trip to Oz about 2 years ago, people talking about dumb Americans who wanted to hitch-hike from Perth to Melbourn in a day or two! They didnt realise that Oz was a huge country/continent/island.

Iraq is a big place, I could hide your mother in a 100 square mile area and tell you the exact area that the 100 square miles cover and you would never find her. Multiply that by a couple thousand. Now you might be able to grasp the extent of this mission.

It isnt a matter of finding a needle in a hay stack, it is a matter of finding a needle in a hay field!


Tell me something, Astar, what do you know about American soldiers? I tell you what, I live in down town San Diego, surrounded by 3 USMC and 2 USN bases. I see and talk to more US soliers than any news agency and I will tell you that they are proud of what they have done for the people of Iraq. I am sure BBC was very objective in it's showing of US personel, I am sure they didnt go out of their way to find the few disgruntaled people and then make it sound like that was the general consences.


Sorry to be so negitive but wow, use a little common sence, open your mind and try to see things from a differnt persepective.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

Delete

BurningByron
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 10th May 2002
Total posts: 340
Posted:Sometimes silence is the only truthful expression when no one person on this earth (including Bush or Saddam) really knows what is going on.

HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

Delete

joe_sixsteps
joe_sixsteps

mULti-torTOISe
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon,...
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 310
Posted:Laytin, if you read through some of the other postings on this subject, you will realise that what i am referring to as war-crimes are not accidental mistakes. I am talking about using cluster-bombs on civilian targets, FAEs on convoys containing civilians, and prosecuting the war (which, according to international and British law, was thoroughly illegal). All of this constitute war crimes. And the only reason that the victors don't get prosecuted for war-crimes is that there's no-one to prosecute them. They're the grinning murderers standing amidst the slaughter and holding the biggest guns.

So, Laytin, I think that's one topic answered.

On the question of finding WMDs, I am actually amazed that our governments didn't just plant them. It shows more integrity than I had suspected them of. However, whether they find them or not doesn't concern me that much. It seems to have been turned into some sort of make-or-break issue, but in fact the key point is that WE CLEARLY HAD NO IDEA WHETHER THEY WERE THERE OR NOT. It has recently come to light that a deal was offered in the lead up to the conflict: full access to the country and the oil, limited economic control and military disbandment. Neither of our governments bothered to listen, we were just too keen to start dropping bombs.

We used cluster bombs on civilian targets. That is a war crime.

We used depleted uranium weaponry, which will cause cancer and mis-pregnancies for generations to come. That is a war crime.

We used Fuel Air Explosives, which count as Weapons of Mass Destruction. The convoy incident actually took place in the first gulf war, not this one, but was a war crime.

The war was prosecuted without sufficient UN backing, on a (deliberately) loose interpretation of a UN vote. That was a war crime.

I agree that Sadam was monstrous, and that, irrespective of the method, the end of his tyranny is a good thing. However, our allies include the truly bestial rulers of Uzbekistan, who BOIL TO DEATH political prisoners. The US is contributing $75 million dollars toward their security forces, who commit these atrocities!

Also, I think that as we live in a so-called democracy, we have to take responsibility for the actions of our countries. It makes me sick with the impotence of my anger, when I think that I should have done so much more to stop this war happening.

Whether there are WMDs or not, we didn't know for sure that they were there.
Getting rid of Sadam is a good thing, but we are giving money and weapons to regimes who are just as bad.
There has been no connection to Al Qaida demonstrated.

The war was wrong. We may be able to salvage something, and the Iraqi people may indeed end up better off, but don't delude yourself that their well-being was an issue here at all. If our leaders cared about the good of the world whatsover, they would have spent the (approx) $180 billion cost of this war on health care in Africa and parts of Asia.

Believe me, Laytin, I have spoken to people who fought in the war, and to people from the middle-east, and to (one) Iraqi about this. I think that if either of us needs to open their mind a bit it is you. The soldiers may well be proud of what they've done, but the real question is: are the Iraqi people glad? I think you'll find that the answer is, resoundingly, not.


The Confusion Squid has many tentacles

Delete

pavement
member
Location: york, uk
Member Since: 17th May 2003
Total posts: 121
Posted:Laytin, are you Raymond Phule?

Delete

Laytin
member
Location: bottom left of the US
Member Since: 3rd Nov 2003
Total posts: 111
Posted:*sighs* I dont want an argument, I dont know everything there is to what has happend in the past 2 years, what I do know is that it is time to stop bicering about who has done what.

Our governments arnt right in what they are doing, and it is time to pull our guys and gals outta there. Let the UN come in and take over.

Many people have died, none of them should have. There needs to be peace, but I seriusly doubt that it will be achieved by throwing hate and discontent around.

Violence only leads to more violence. It is true that our leaders didnt use wisdom, but they are not criminals because of it. Their intent was not to murder innocent families, unlike those who commited the attacks on 9/11 and unlike the men who would murder people just because they didnt win a soccer game.

It is terrible what this world has come to, people slaughtering others by the thousands, just because they are differnt. You must ask yourselves, "What did we learn from the previous wars?" I think it is safe to say that we learned nothing.


History has shown us, time and time again, that anything worth doing is never done quickly.

Rome was not built in a day, the slaves in the US were not freed overnight, women's rights are still not equal to that of men's.

I would be willing to wadger that in due time things will improve in Iraq, unfortunatly history has proven that it will not take months or even years, it will take decades.

The real question isnt if people are happy or proud of what has been done, the question is, "Is the world patient enough to wait for the better times?" The sad part of that question is, it doesnt matter the what the answer is, the fact remains it will take time even if the world isnt patient.


Patience is a virtue, what has been wronged will be righted, it may not happen today or tomorrow, or even in our lifetime, but it will be done.


I am sorry that I lashed out, I let my frustraitions get the better of me, patience is something that I am still working on.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

Delete

woodnymph
woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk
Member Since: 14th Sep 2003
Total posts: 313
Posted:Pavement,i have been quietly wondering the same thing!

Delete

Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:I'm sure Ray isn't the only pro-military guy on HoP..

Raph


Delete

pavement
member
Location: york, uk
Member Since: 17th May 2003
Total posts: 121
Posted:Thats very true, but im pretty sure its Ray...

Delete

wan hwo ren
wan hwo ren

member
Location: I'm not sure
Member Since: 27th Mar 2002
Total posts: 86
Posted:quote:you must look at things how your governments look at things frightening thought mr Phule

Delete

Laytin
member
Location: bottom left of the US
Member Since: 3rd Nov 2003
Total posts: 111
Posted:I have not been here long enough to know if Raymund Phule deserved what was said about him.

I have avoided this because it seems that you have already made up your mind about who you think I am. I do not think that there is anything that I can say that will change your mind, so I am not going to try.

Please come and get to know who I am.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

Delete

simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:quote:Originally posted by joe_sixsteps:
are the Iraqi people glad? I think you'll find that the answer is, resoundingly, not. From what i can tell, the answer isn't resounding at all. The majority of iraqis i've spoken to are extremely glad that Saddam's regime has been removed. Though seeing as the iraqis i speak to are ones who fled the country, that could well be an unrepresentative sample. Whether or not they're glad will depend on a number of personal factors. Mainly whether they lost more family and friends because of Saddam or Bush.

Here's a little anecdote on the subject of the current state of Iraq: just a couple of days ago I interviewed an iraqi guy same age as me (23) whose asylum claim had been refused. Under current UK immigration policy it is illegal for him to work, and he gets no benefits or rights to accomodation. So he was sleeping rough (phoneboxes and doorways) in Central London and begging. He does have the option of voluntarily returning to Iraq, paid for by the Home Office. But he'd spoken to his family in Iraq pretty recently, and said that he preferred to stay on the streets here because "at least it's safe."


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Delete

Laytin
member
Location: bottom left of the US
Member Since: 3rd Nov 2003
Total posts: 111
Posted:"No rights to accomidations"

Does this mean that he can not rent a hotel room? As in illeagle? Could you please go into more detail here?


Do you have a copy of your interview? I would like to read it. If that is okay of course.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

Delete

simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:It means that we're not going to give him somewhere to live. He could rent or buy somewhere if he had any money. But he can't work (legally), and gets no benefits, so he can't get any money. Technically he's awaiting forcible removal to his country of origin, but the system is so swamped that it often takes a few years till that happens.

No copy of the interview, it was informal, but i couldn't show it to you anyway.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Delete

pavement
member
Location: york, uk
Member Since: 17th May 2003
Total posts: 121
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Laytin:
Please come and get to know who I am. You`re Ray!


Delete

simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Pavement - i very very much doubt he is. Now please stop accusing him of lying with absolutely no evidence.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Delete

Laytin
member
Location: bottom left of the US
Member Since: 3rd Nov 2003
Total posts: 111
Posted:I feel really bad for that man. I would offer him a place to stay if I wasnt 6k miles away. I got a couch he can use if he ever gets to SoCal.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

Delete

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:Laytin did you talk to soldiers who served and came back (I don't mean serving a qatar or airstrips in england fitting tires on aircraft, I mean serving in the streets of iraq, being shot at, seeing your friends die, arresting looters and rapists only to be ordered to let them go by higherups, being expected to be a police officer without any training in police procedures?)

It seems to me from the soldiers ive talked to, a large percentage of the ones who saw combat have a very "What the **** are we doing there?" attitude. And the ones who are proud of what they are doing quite frankly sound like blind patriots/idiots (ive only actually talked to two american soldiers who were proud of what they did there, and they both are idiots, this I know from past experience with them, not because of their opinnions)

And Since there is hardly any talk of any real plan for iraq, or a plan for the americans to exit (vague nonsense from bush doesn't count) What do you really think they are still accomplishing by staying in the country?

Theres no resounding yes or no for being glad of the invasion from the iraqi people, many of them have mixed feelings on it. But most of them are starting to hate being occupied by a bunch of foreign soldiers who just got down blowing up their friends and family (be it accidents, war crimes deliberte it doesn't matter, a lot of civilians died and theres a lot of resentment) The soldiers are spouting american propaganda and flying flags and doing all kinds of upsetting things and going from ALL cases of occupation of foreign lands if the occupiers don't spend A LOT of money on rebuilding iraq then they aren't going to fix a god damn thing.

I say the americans should either be rebuilding iraqs infrastructure that they just blew up like it's their own or get the hell out, because doing what they are doing now (mostly nothing) is just destabilizing not only iraq but the entire region.

Oh yeah heres a quote from bush senior

Quote:
While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different- -and perhaps barren--outcome.



http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm
br>
Read the link, it has a very interesting bit of information about some sketchy business with time magazine and the removal of that essay from their website.


Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [troop* iraq wmd] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > US to take Iraq out of OPEC? [2 replies]
2. Forums > The troops are in iraq, the WMD's arent. [19 replies]
3. Forums > Iraq now more or less of a terrorist haven? [62 replies]
4. Forums > War in iraq reporter accused of both being gay and canadian by whitehouse [7 replies]
5. Forums > Another death in Iraq [19 replies]

     Show more..