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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Now look, it says very clearly on the list of forums that this is the Temporary Discussion Area, but there are NO discussions about the nature of time. So i'm making one.

Time confuses me for several reasons
1. you can't poke it with a stick.
2. we all seem to be moving along it at the same speed but...
3. when i try to think about how 'fast' we are moving in time, without reference to time to determine speed, my brain stops working and starts thinking about iced buns instead.
4. did i say several reasons? um...
5. how small does time go till you get to an indivisible elementary particle of time, eh? eh?
6. if the answer to the last one is 'infinitely small' then what sense does 'now' make, eh? eh?
7. is the future already there, or does it get made as it happens?

um yeah.

So anyone want to give me some of their time?
(go on Dom, i've forgotten how your theory that time doesn't exist actually went )

and finally, to fit in with the rest of this Forum, i'd like to blame the USA for its abuse of time and general temporal irresponsibility


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:I want to give you some of my time.

here:

*hands simian some time in a glass vial*

now dont drop it.


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:wow, gloopy...

thats nearly as good as when you gave me 'the funk' after you'd been listening to DJ Hype lots.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:which reminds me...

i have a cd to write for you...


erm..

*scurries round room*

erm,...cant seem to find it at the moment....if i do...you will have a copy tonight.

it might have gaps in it unfotunatly...cos i dont know how to not do that.

what do we discuss here?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:We discuss time.

Like this:
ooh, isn't there a lot of it!
i wonder what it's for.

Stuff like that.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:ok then.

where is it?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Well its not a thing, its a direction.

Its like asking where left is.

Although left changes depending on where your facing, but i don't think you can rotate relative to time. That'd need another axis.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:ok...lets create a new axis.

not of evil (bah...Iraq)

it now runs from my top right nearside, to the bottom left farside.

make sense?


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:I'd like to object to the time-distortion achieved during spinning or spinning practise

If it's fire... one minute takes inbetween two minutes and five to pass as you're left thinking "sod it, it'll go out soon, maybe if i just weave quickly for a bit... no... sod it..."

If it's practise... one hour takes between one and ten minuites to pass rapidly leaving you at bedtime with no idea what you were trying to learn when you started, interesting new bruises and a new move taht you didn't intend on finding out about now

And if it's the working day... nuff said.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:i span solidly for three hours once...went like 10 minutes.

then again i was stoned.

time is an ilousion as is david copperfield

[ 27. August 2003, 03:48: Message edited by: The United Chains of Fire (Jon) ]


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Pink...?
BRONZE Member since Apr 2002

Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There, United Kingdom

Total posts: 6140
Posted:Time is a confusing.

When waiting for something good it drags, when waiting for something bad it whizzes by.
When waiting for my bus it goes really really slowly - wait actually thats my bus just being late all the time


Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Sorry yall but I am stayin out of this one, atleast untill I get some sleep. Yall went way over my head hahaha I have no clue where yall came up with this post

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Ok...as no-one else has actually tried to help you...here are some answers

1. you can't poke it with a stick.

No, but did you know if it wasn't for time you couldn't poke anything at all? The stick would have to exist in the retracted and extended states simlultaneously...

2. we all seem to be moving along it at the same speed but...

We aren't...it is just that you, as the observer, are observing things within your own personal timescale, so something that has a much slower timescale appears to be "moving fast". you then equate this rapid movement to speed and strength rather than a different perception and actualisation of time. Pretty simple really.

3. when i try to think about how 'fast' we are moving in time, without reference to time to determine speed, my brain stops working and starts thinking about iced buns instead.

Try throwing an iced bun, and then see how fast it is moving relative to a bun you have rolled along the ground. You can use drag factors instead of time factors to determine speed, especially as the icing is likely to come off the rolled one and can be scraped up and measured via weight as 'lost potential'.

4. did i say several reasons? um...

Yes

5. how small does time go till you get to an indivisible elementary particle of time, eh? eh?

Time can continue to be divisible until the system being used to meaure it cannot distinguish between smaller units. Time is a theorectical theory and a human concept, therefore, if we cannot make smaller measurements, there are no smaller units. time doesn't exist of itself, it only exists because we 'perceive it'.

6. if the answer to the last one is 'infinitely small' then what sense does 'now' make, eh? eh?

Infinitely small is a nonsensical phrase. Infinity, in it's very nature, can be measured in time, so the arguement above still relates to your use of infinitley small.

Sorry if I haven't answered the direct question here, but the one above also answers it too so I thought i could be allowed to digress.

7. is the future already there, or does it get made as it happens?

The future doesn't exist, and therefore, cannot be "made as it happens" as that is then the present. Even if the future is set and nothing can change what is going to happen, this does not mean that the future is "already there". It will not happen until it become the present.

Simple...


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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted::whooooosssshhhhhhh:
don't you just love the sound of conversations going straight over your head...
so here goes...
can't remember where I read this, but someone famous said it(aint I soundin bright today!):

Life is a waste of time
and time is a waste of life,
so stay wasted all the time...
and have the time of your life!
hey!
(actually, I added the "hey" part, but I thought it added a certain je ne sais quoi!)

Ben


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:and why does time seem to move faster as you get older?

and why is time circular, and not linear in it's construction?



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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Time can continue to be divisible until the system being used to meaure it cannot distinguish between smaller units. Time is a theorectical theory and a human concept, therefore, if we cannot make smaller measurements, there are no smaller units. time doesn't exist of itself, it only exists because we 'perceive it'.the same arguement follows with distance - just depends on how accurate your measuring equipment is

far more likely is that the timeline is a continuous function, requiring differential analysis to examine any particular point, and the possibly of several dimensions of time is very strong to accomodate the multiple possible outcomes of right down to the most elementary particle interactions

along with this theory comes the idea that time is entirely fixed and all future, history and present have already happened - in a sense they have but the very words "already happened" are time-related hence impossible to use in this context

it would be more accurate to say that all potential outcomes and events are mapped out - the point on timespace that we are now representing the present - but the path that we take through the mesh of interweaved possibilities is Not predetermined. by the very random nature of subatomic particle reactions and nuclear decay a degree of randomness is garunteed - as schrodinger observed the outcome of an event is not determined until it itself has been observed possibly changing the outcome - leading to the postulation that our course through timespace is taken looking backwards, only certain of the past

just as it is.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:*mental image of sprinting backwards through a minefield*



"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:quote: as schrodinger observed the outcome of an event is not determined until it itself has been observed possibly changing the outcome - leading to the postulation that our course through timespace is taken looking backwards, only certain of the past
However the past is generally only a subjective construction, based on the observations of the people who were there, and therefore wholly able to be distorted. If both the future and past are uncertain, can we be any more sure of the present?


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:that's certainly true of History - as that's written down people's perceptions of their present time

but the past? is that absolute or does that change? i'd say absolute


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Frostypaw...distance as a measurable quantity is NOT a pure theory put forward by humans such as the whole past-present-future thingee. (In my opinion)

We have a theory of how we measure it, and apply our own numerical systems and so forth to it, but it does have a quantifiable figure on it's own.

You can take an object a nanometre wide and halve it's span to half a nanometre, then halve it again, and again, so on approaching an infinite number of halvings. That next step will always exist, as distance when applied to an object's width, exists in the world, and can be halved, you don't even need a numbering system for this, simply find the midpoint, then the midpoint between one side and the midpoint youn just found and so on...

Time, on the other hand, only really exists in the NOW. Minutes and hours etc don't exist int he same way that the width of a particle exists.

The only thing to do with time that really does exist, is the PRESENT. And you can't halve the PRESENT , for it doesn't have a length or point of existence in the same way as a measurement of a quality (eg width) can have.

It is simply a theorectical point on a theoretical graph of time involving the theoretical PAST and FUTURE, which do not exist.

Sure you can find the halfway point on the object as discussed above, but can you measure the width of that midpoint? The point itself? No, it exists due to it's place in the universe, not because of any other properties it posesses. Because it doesn't possess any other properties...

The 'timeline' that people keep talking about is not and does not and can not exist. We have distancmorphosised our concept of time, with this 'timeline theory', that fools people into thinking that time is something that can be measured the same way by other people.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:The problem with time is that you can never get more of it, even skipping ahead in time zones doesnt grant you much more time, it always seem to catch up and then pass you. Kinda sucks really.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Ade:
and why does time seem to move faster as you get older?


there is a genuine answer to this question and it proceeds thusly...

As a one year old, one year is 1/1 of you life (all of it)

however, as a 90 year old, a year is only 1/90 of your life.

and as 1/90 is smaller than 1/1, it transpires that this is why time seems to go faster as you get older.

*looks smug*

that was the only thing i learnt in year 10 biology.

it still doesnt answer many questions, unlike the number 4 which answers lots and lots of questions.


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:I thought that was the number 42...

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:jet-lag sucks!

Raph


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Well, that depends on whether you are overtaking the dateline or crossing over it the other way.

if you are crossing over it, jet lag blows!!!



And geez guys, I was hoping for a bit more analytical thought into this than the current responses...Simian would you mind if I moved this into Technical?


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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:Travelling west seems ok, but going east just kills me!

Raph


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:You can take an object a nanometre wide and halve it's span to half a nanometre, then halve it again, and again, so on approaching an infinite number of halvings. That next step will always exist, as distance when applied to an object's width, exists in the world, and can be halved, you don't even need a numbering system for this, simply find the midpoint, then the midpoint between one side and the midpoint youn just found and so on...

Time, on the other hand, only really exists in the NOW. Minutes and hours etc don't exist int he same way that the width of a particle exists.but it can... i can say this object will take 10 seconds to fall to the earth, and i can divide that time into 10ths, then each of those into 1000's and pick any point on time's scale as well

i just can't go backwards into it - have to go forwards and grasp the moment as it passes

much as if you were travelling along on a train - you might know where the maildrop bag will be for you to reach out and grab it - the Where here is congruent with When in time as we're now moving in a fixed line - but unlike our normal motion around the world the TimeTrain won't/can't stop so if we don't reach out and grab it at the right moment/place we'll miss it

so i'd propose that time too has a quantifiable nature, only bitch is how fast it keeps slipping by

ps. i Love the use of the word distancmorphosised

pps. can i go back in time 4 days?


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:And congeniality?


Where are all the badgers?


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:That's more like it! Ha haaa!

Bender and Frosty...

BENDER FIRST...Congenialty is the DNA state of a person in jail...Badgers are where they always are, in the badge factory making badges...sheesh!

FROSTY...
quote: i can say this object will take 10 seconds to fall to the earth,and i can divide that time into 10ths You can, Frosty, but you are using our concept of distance to do the dividing.

That ten second fall is a progressive realisation of the potential of the object. The fact that, to you, as an observer, it took ten seconds to fall to the earth is completely subjective.

The time (10 seconds) is being treated exactly as the distance that was covered, in being a set figure or amount.

What occurred during those '10 seconds' was not a fall recorded along a time line, but an object passing through various states before it comes to rest on earth.

Those states do not have a mid-phase. It is simply your distancmorphosised concept of the fall that makes you feel there is a timeline involved.

Although you do seem to be starting to grasp it, shown by quote: i just can't go backwards into it - have to go forwards and grasp the moment as it passesThis getting closer. You do not go backwards or forwards in time, you simply change states.

Thinking that "forward" is progressing along a timeline is ultimately flawed, as there is no direction as such.

"forward" assumes there are other choices and directions to go in, or that you can choose to stop and not progress any further.

The so-called 'present' does not give us any other these options, therefore forward is an innappropriate word.

In fact, due our distancmorphosised culture, there is no word I know of to describe what we mistakenly see as a window of opportunity (the present).

We can no more choose not be in this state than we can choose to unmake history.


Oh, and this has now been copied into Social... Here

[ 03. September 2003, 14:32: Message edited by: Charles ]


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tiamat_22580


tiamat_22580

I will kill all mods
Location: mods suck

Total posts: 210
Posted:you guys are making me insane aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:join the marmot...

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