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Invicta
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

member
Location: chatham kent

Total posts: 15
Posted:what i cant see is now the war has been underway for almost three weeks now why cant all the people who are against the war stop shouting "stop the war" and attually support the troops that are out there because they have to deal with the war on the front line not sit in an office or school/college all day reading newspapers about it and/or watching the news they are attually fighting the war. I was in kuwait two weeks ago but i got medi vacd out but when i was out there the only support that we got was from our families so what i say is stop sitting down and watching the war in distress at why its going on, but support the troops that are out there doing the job of finding these mad people that want to turn the world into a biological mistake....
greg


if the world was peaceful we all will get alot further in life

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Hi, you might want to move this to the "War Topics" forum, where all war-related discussion is going on


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:The anti-war protesters are pro-life.

Just because they do not agree with the war does not mean they do not support our soldiers.

I personally pity them. They are doing their job and deserve the utmost respect for that, it's just a shame that that the people giving the orders are so wrong.

BTW - this should be in war topics.

And, I do not agree with the war. I'm not just going to change my mind because someone thinks that I should show my support for something that sickens, depresses and upsets me greatly.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Hey Invicta, I do know what you are saying. There are people in protest movements who do not respect the troops. But as a witness to human stupidity (and an occasional perpetrator) I would suggest to you that in any protest there are people who without reason target hatred on other parties who do not deserve it.

My partner is in the marines. And I do not agree with the war. He knows he has me to rely on no matter what, but he also knows that I do not agree with what is going on.

I do share his fear about people's response to him when he returns. Just as those who returned from Vietnam and other conflicts were vilified upon their return, there is the very real chance that those who return from Iraq will be received without sympathy from the public or support from their government. And yet, all of the people around me I have talked to, the very same ones who attend protests, would never dream of doing this. They hold the view that the troops cannot be held responsible for the decisions of their leader, and that we should have empathy with them and respect for them for the hard task that they perform. I personally would go further, as I have said elsewhere, I think an apology is due for not having come up with a better solution, sooner.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:You know... though some do protest and support the troops, alot dont. Hence the people sitting outside recruiting offices with picket signs.

It is really sad and quite frustraiting.


You know, sometimes I wish I was over there, and other times I am glad that I am not.

I am sitting in Japan, babysitting the N. Koreans while friends of mine are in Kuait. It sucks to think that some of my friends are directly in harms way while I sit and play on the compter.

There is so much more going on then the reporters talk about, and so much more than the protesters know or even think about.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Aykut
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

member
Location: Istanbul, Turkey

Total posts: 9
Posted:Respect???

Though this is not the first thread that shocked me it's certainly the most shocking of all. Do you realy beleive what you say? From where I see things this sounds completely absurd.

I'll quote all but here is my point first. I have no respect for any voluntary soldiers anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong but all US troops are voluntary soldiers, they get paid to do their "job". And I share Einstein's view on war. He says (excuse my translation)"if a man can walk in accord with a military march, that is a valueless creature. Although a spine would be enough for him, he somehow managed to get a brain. This black stain of civilization must be destroyed asap." And he also says something that says it all "an ordinary murder is no worse than killing at war". How I see it, all US soldiers, including those who sat in front of their computers in Qatar, are the murderers of the babies killed in Bagdad. All US, UK and OZ soldiers who didn't resign when the war started, accepted being coldblooded murderers, that's it.

Rozi says:
"They hold the view that the troops cannot be held responsible for the decisions of their leader, and that we should have empathy with them and respect for them for the hard task that they perform."

Can you please explain me why someone deserves respect for being somebody elses conditioned dog? Why would I respect anyone for accepting leaders? And how about "I pulled the trigger but he told me to do it" excuse? Isn't that absurd? So the hijackers of 911 were innocent bc Bin Laden told them to do it and chemical Ali is innocent bc Saddam told him to do it and even idiot Bush is innocent because he's getting orders from God. Aren't soldiers told that they may be forced to kill when they join the army? Or they go to Iraq loaded with weapons and *suprise* your commander tells you to kill, you didn't know it but you "have to" do it. Why do they have to do it anyway? Can you please tell me this?

fluffy napalm fairy says:
"I personally pity them. They are doing their job and deserve the utmost respect for that, it's just a shame that the people giving the orders are so wrong."

Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong about giving orders and something even more so about accepting orders? Isn't it a shame that at this point of human civilisation there are still people that can't think for themselves and let the others think for them and accept to be their tools? My dad was asking me the other day "so you are such a humanist that you feel so sad about the murdered Iraqi people, don't you feel sad about the american soldiers?" Why would I feel sad that the murderer is finally murdered? I pity the soldiers when they are doing compulsory service like in Iraq and Turkey, but still when it comes to bombing a schoolbus the murderer IS responsible. I had to stay a fugitive and then in exile for years to avoid being a soldier during the war in Kurdistan, and I have many veteran friends who were forcefully taken there and given the choice "kill or be killed" and some came back after killing, completely brain-damaged and of course I feel pity for them as I feel pity for the Iraqi soldiers the invasion forces have been killing by hundreds a day. But no way I feel pity for a voluntary US mercenary murderer. It's absolutely same as supporting terrorism. If there were no terrorists there would be no terror, if there were no soldiers there would be no war.

Invicta talks about "the job of finding these mad people that want to turn the world into a biological mistake...."

Why did they come all the way? Aren't there enough nuclear stuff in US to mutate each and everyone of us? Or is it better to use the uranium in a "depleted" manner on Arabs and Slavs? I am completely shocked to hear that there are still people who think US is in Iraq not for green energy but to save the world from WMDs. Do us a favor, go back and destroy your own WMDs first and you'll see the world will be a much peaceful place.

And Raymund puts the last word:
some do protest and support the troops

Realy??? Do you mean there are people that demonstrate against the war and support warriors? Are you joking or what? Or is hypocrisy a tradition where these people come from?

And a final confession. Till recently I was thinking all this crazy bloodshed is happening because the US politicians and soldiers are going completely mad and I thought the oppressed, ill educated and misinformed american people are unable to stop them so they are not responsible. But after I read all this threads in HoP I see there are many american people that are willing to be cold blooded murderers and this makes me realy sad. Now hundred millions worldwide see US as the big mass murderer and this won't stop before US apologizes for what it's doing and hearing what you say it's nowhere near it. So what you create with this war is about a million Bin Ladens and hundred more 911s. Well done respectful heroes. Thank you for liberating our souls!


(o: May all beings be happy :o)

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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:Wow Aykut..... you just totally lived up to every stereotype of the angry Arab I've ever tried very hard to not believe! Well that and a serious case of denial with regards to human nature.

Hold on whilst I consult my Zionist Conspiracy Handler (ZCH for hosrt, every American has one ^_^). So far he's only telling me to destroy Islam and stop eating pork, but I'm sure he'll come up with something brilliant and evil for you in just a momment, but whilst we wait, I've got some words for you! YAY! WORDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Note: If I seem just a touch dissrespectful, don't be surprised, I only give as much respect as I've been given and seeing as you've given none to anyone..... well, I feel no need to play nice.

I'm gonna do this systematically seeing as you gave us quite a bunch of crap on the wall to work with.

"I'll quote all but here is my point first. I have no respect for any voluntary soldiers anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong but all US troops are voluntary soldiers, they get paid to do their "job"."

No you're wrong Sparky!

Soldiers get paid to eat ice cream and pet kittens!

Putz- least that's what my ZCH told me to say.

How I see it, all US soldiers, including those who sat in front of their computers in Qatar, are the murderers of the babies killed in Bagdad. All US, UK and OZ soldiers who didn't resign when the war started, accepted being coldblooded murderers, that's it."

technically they're still sitting there.

Would you be any happier if they were hot blooded about it? Would you rather we whipped our troops into a frenzy convincing them that everyone on the field was a target and giving them a diet of pig's blood and steroids?

Just saying, our troops are relative saints in comparison to some of these Republican guards murdering civilians trying to leave and troops trying to surrender to the Americans (hey, they're taking your advice and refusing to fight, they got shot for it).

Shit happens in war the same way it happens in life, but I guarantee you that no one has said "hey, lets target that building I think we'll get lots of Iraqi babies that way"..... though my ZCH keeps babbling about how much fun that would be, he's awefully shifty.

"Can you please explain me why someone deserves respect for being somebody elses conditioned dog? Why would I respect anyone for accepting leaders?

Because they're not and you should because soldiers keep you safe from other soldiers. Believe it or not, war does take two.

And how about "I pulled the trigger but he told me to do it" excuse? Isn't that absurd? So the hijackers of 911 were innocent bc Bin Laden told them to do it and chemical Ali is innocent bc Saddam told him to do it and even idiot Bush is innocent because he's getting orders from God. Aren't soldiers told that they may be forced to kill when they join the army? Or they go to Iraq loaded with weapons and *suprise* your commander tells you to kill, you didn't know it but you "have to" do it. Why do they have to do it anyway? Can you please tell me this?"

I'm really not seeing the comparison between people who INTENTIONALLY (that means on purpose, with intent, went out of one's way to do, was set upon completing) target civillians and troops who have literally risked their own safety (suicide bombers and "we surrender" ambushes) to avoid hurting civies and surrendering troops.

You don't seem to have yet grasped the differance between terrorist and soldier; one identifies himself as such and only willfully targets military targets and the other hides himself and avoids military targets in favor of killing civilians (like the little babies).

"Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong about giving orders and something even more so about accepting orders?"

Not in the least, orders are a part of order and order is a part of society and civilization.

Note: use the above brilliant bit of reasoning (yours, not mine) and watch how fast you get fired from your job ^_^

"Why would I feel sad that the murderer is finally murdered?"

Hmmm, because you seemed so concerned about human life?

Faker.

Also, about soldiers being "tools".... so, this would make you- what? A screw?

"But no way I feel pity for a voluntary US mercenary murderer. It's absolutely same as supporting terrorism. If there were no terrorists there would be no terror, if there were no soldiers there would be no war."

Many of them are doing this as a means to ensure higher education and will only be there for a few years..... heaven forbid they choose to better themselves.

Also, keep in mind that for the most part, a soldier's time is spent being ready. The vast majority of US enlisted men and women over the past 30 years have never ever seen combat.

Note; technically a mercenary is a foreigner you pay for military service. Paying one's own citizens for military service makes them a soldier. Stop using words you don't know.

Again, you fail to grasp the definition of terrorism. Supporting an armed guard is absolutly nothing, NOTHING like supporting terrorism. If you can't figure that out, well then go back to school.

That comment about "no soldiers, no war"..... no, there'd be war, it is just that it'd be fought by untrained unequipped dolts...... who would then get totally routed by the other side that realized "hey, if we train and have these, these SOLDIER things, we won't die and they will! YAY!" And thusly did society return to its human roots.

"Why did they come all the way? Aren't there enough nuclear stuff in US to mutate each and everyone of us? Or is it better to use the uranium in a "depleted" manner on Arabs and Slavs? I am completely shocked to hear that there are still people who think US is in Iraq not for green energy but to save the world from WMDs. Do us a favor, go back and destroy your own WMDs first and you'll see the world will be a much peaceful place."

They went all that way (not going after Turkey after all, so we actually went FURTHER than the way you mentioned ^_^) because WMD's are bad..... the thing is they're worse when in the hands of a highly unstable (have you heard of Sadam's sons?) regime with absolutly no sign of chnge apparent.

Say what you want about Bush, but at least at the worst we'll only have to deal with him till 2008..... Sadaam seemed to have a few more decades left in him to say nothing of his kids and their kids and.... well, you- SHOULD- get the point.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that were we to destroy our own we'd end up regretting it what with Russia, China, France, the UK, India, and Pakistan having the power to turn our major cities into smoking carbon and us having no response.

What on this Earth makes you think the rest of the world would dream of giving up the nuclear trump card if America did? "Weeeeeell, hello Mr President, care to take a look at this warhead and tell me again that you won't be giving us a 20 billion dollar aid package?"

Try and tell me the rest of the world is more civilized than the US and watch how I roll on the ground laughing gleefully and- eventually- painfully, getting my clothes dirty and the sweet, sweet dirt upon which I laugh so merrily. Oh, the laughter, hey! That sounds fun, tell me, tell me!

"And a final confession. Till recently I was thinking all this crazy bloodshed is happening because the US politicians and soldiers are going completely mad and I thought the oppressed, ill educated and misinformed american people are unable to stop them so they are not responsible."

Ill educated.... missinformed..... opressed. I'm sorry but that description is much more applicable to Iraq than the US and in fact is in no way applicalbe to the US.

I have said a lot of things, publicly, privately, online and off, I have done many things and seen many things that my government may not have liked. I know that were Bush to hear some of the things I've said of him he'd be more than a little insulted, and rightfully so (a lot of them were insults), but ya know what? Not once, not ever, not even remotely has my right to say these things, do these things, seee what I want, hear what I want been in anyway hampered by my government. Ask an Iraqi if he could say the same thing (there actually quite a few countries where people couldn't say this, but hey).

This statement alone tells me you really don't know anything about our society other than what you see on TV or read in books and the paper.

But then you learned something about us.....

"But after I read all this threads in HoP I see there are many american people that are willing to be cold blooded murderers and this makes me realy sad. Now hundred millions worldwide see US as the big mass murderer and this won't stop before US apologizes for what it's doing and hearing what you say it's nowhere near it."

And from everything you've said I've heard nothing to convince me that the middle east is interested in abandoning the myth of my ZCH here (burns sock puppet wearing cute sock puppet yahmaka). Look at past wars and try to tell me that US troops are not being the most considerate of any invading force EVER.

The thing is, you can't. Not once has a military ever gone to the kind of lengths that ours has to avoid civillians and allow the opposing force to surrender. In fact we've been considerate to a fault; car bombs at military checkpoints set up to allow civies to leave combat zones.

Don't you dare call our troops murderers when our enemy is willingly killing its own civilians and troops.

So what you create with this war is about a million Bin Ladens and hundred more 911s. Well done respectful heroes. Thank you for liberating our souls!"

Kinda sounds like you want it. In fact, that's all I've heard. Nothing but "its your fault, you're to blame, you deserve it." When I hear about terrorists killing civies, all too often I hear people like you blaming the victims and their society for the terrorists' actions.

I for one don't blame the civilian deaths of this war on them, I don't even blame Hussein's regime (though in many cases he rather deserves it, but I'm gonna be "understanding" just for you), I don't blame our troops either. Shit happens.

Quite frankly, what you've said about creating a bunch more bin laden's is possible, that's why it is vital that we rebuild and reform Iraq.

The most important thing is to establish an elected government (time consuming) and a solid education system for all. Another important thing, ensure that there are no more damned scapegoats.

I swear to whatever god YOU believe in that if I ever hear another Arab leader, official, or major news source cite Zionist conspiracies and Israel for lack of progress in the development of their country's domestic infrastructure I'm going to lose what respect I have for the region as a whole. Israel is not the reason the crops failed, Israel is not the reason schools are bad, the reason shit is bad is because people are too busy fixing the damned blame when they should be fixing the problem.

I'm sorry if I've adressed you as if you represented a stereotypical image of the "Arab (maybe Turk) who blames everything on Jews and America" but frankly that's how you come off.

Feel free to blame every damned world problem on America and complain all you want, but don't be surprised if that doesn't fix your problems, cause quite frankly this world was f----d up before our 220 year old country came along and the Middle East was ****ed over before America became a power.

I'm really, really tired of hearing the ME decry our way of life as evil, then bitching and moaning that they don't have enough power or America has too much. Has it occured to anyone that part of the reason our nation is so damned strong is because of our way of life?

BTW, some final words from my ZCH... oh WAIT! HE HAS NONE BECAUSE HE NEVER EXISTED! WOW O_O


No one knows me like I do.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wahooo!!!! At last someone with balls enough to say exactly what they feel no matter what the repercussions may be.

Aykut, I admire you for being brave enough to say what you will. Your life has got to be hard. Turkey isnt known for its breakthroughs in personal freedoms so this must be a great thing for you. I must also admit that you open your argument with great supporting questions and statements.

Do you support your own military? Lets say, this war in Iraq and the last one and all of 9/11 never happened. So of course this is a total hypothetical situation. Iraq, turned against its' neighbor to the North (instead of Kuwait), Turkey. Your military (whom you either support or dont support) is overwhelmed (again this is hypothetical and I am not bashing your military), and your country is occupied.

Now, obviously you dont like this, do you...?
A. Help any form of resistance?
B. Support any form of resistance from afar?
C. Condemn any form of resistance and submit to Iraqi control?


You may not like the US, UK and OZ, but who do you think would be the first ones to help you out? Even though you may think they are quote: somebody elses conditioned dog they would be there to help you.


Last year around February there was a medium sized earthquake on a tiny Pacific Island called Guam. It got no media coverage and no World Aid, yet the US Marines were told to help with some of the rebuilding.

How do I know this if it got no attention? Because I was there!

Respect, was earned that week. Damage to a few small villages was the main thing, but to the majority of the island it was not damaged beyond minor repairs. Basically it was a lot of putting up walls of sheds and re-shingling. Nothing to hard but respect was earned. The damage was repaired and respect earned.

Now there is a difference between respect and like. Personally I dont trust or like the MPs, but I do respect them. You dont have to like soldiers, but you should respect them. They are willing to do a job that few are.

I can think for myself just fine. So tell me, do you have a job? If so, your boss tells you to do something and you dont do it, will they not punish you some how? If you do the job asked, are you thinking for yourself?

So... if a school bus was bombed by an American aircraft, and later that day in a totally different scenario 3 Americans were killed, were the murderers murdered? I mean the pilot of the plane never died, but 3 other totally unrelated people did, are they still murderers?


quote: If there were no terrorists there would be no terror, if there were no soldiers there would be no war.
Terror has too many forms to say that if there was no terrorists then there would be no terror. Secondly war happens with or with out soldiers. War isnt necessarily bloody conflicts; war can be waged against pollution, against deforesting. There are too many ways to do things in this world to make such a bold statement as what you just did.


WMD is such a press related term. Seen as how anybody with an at home chemistry set and enough time on their hands can make a pretty lethal WMD. I mean mixing bleach and ammonia can kill you, yet that is sold in the supermarket!!

I feel that if the US really wanted to show the world that they are against the use of WMDs that they should start with our own.


And yes finally people can be against the war, yet still support the troops. Rozi, whom I deeply love still supports me, and she is out right against the war and wars. It can be done.

I personally feel that homosexuality is wrong, I dont hate gays and I dont treat them any different then I would anybody else. Am I a hypocrite for that?


There is a phrase that Christians use, though I must admit more say than do... "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
Doing this doesnt make you a hypocrite, it makes you human.

Ohh yes, the US citizens are oppressed, ill educated, infidels. Doesnt your country still chop off the hand of a thief?

I wonder, what has your country done to aid human rights? What have your citizens done to aid world hunger?

I wonder if you are not racially driven. I mean here is America, Australia and Brittan, the three countries that you decided to attack with your words, they are rich. Maybe you are too, but your country as a whole isnt seen as very rich. I mean what does the average person make per day? I doubt it is as much as the US, OZ, and the UK. So no wonder you hate us!

You are a very angry young man. Obviously you are oppressed, I mean your own government tried to force you to do something that you dont want to do. So you ran away.

You must be so angry at the US, OZ and UK because they dont have to fight. They are free to do or do not do as they see fit. I bet that just cheeses you to no limit.

I pity you. Your life does not exist; it is whatever your government wants it to be.

Dont worry my friend, one day the US, UK and OZ might come to liberate you too. That way you dont have to leave your country because you dont want to fight.

Maybe you can then have your own life.


Here is hopping that you can be your own man soon.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund P.:

Wahooo!!!! At last someone with balls enough to say exactly what they feel no matter what the repercussions may be. Hold on Ray, me thinks it would be fairly safe to say that most of us here do say exactly what we feel.The difference being that rather than be offensive (or in this case defensive) and throw gas on the fire we respond in a more civilized manner.Truly no offense DaiT but sometimes would it not just be better to concede that there is a difference of opinion and leave it at that?

Just like yourself there is little you could say that is gonna change his mind so instead you want to start a fight because he has an opinion.A bit of an extreme opinion but still an opinion.

All in my opinion of course but I guess I have the gall to say what I feel too even though you will probably slam me for disagreeing with you and try to put me down. ^___^

Anyone see where I've contradicted myself?

One thing I have noticed about Aykut is that he is quite the angry person with a major axe to grind with the US.Imagine all the Al Qaida recruits who share his anger at this country.

He does make a valid point that without soldiers there would be no wars simply because who would fight them?However, as DaiT has eluded to there is such a thing as human nature.The only thing that disbanding your country's military would accomplish is an easier means for another country to come and take you over.Until every country on the planet is willing to completely disband their military forces then I guess we should get used to the way things are.

And even that doesn't solve the problem of terror groups who could be as many as one or thousands.

Even if you are to be reincarnated a million times I would still be pessimistic about the possibility of there ever being a true sense of peace on Earth.Sorry.

Now being that we are aware of the horrible possiblities of a nuclear,chemical or biological strike why don't we completely disarm ourselves of them?Are you honestly saying that if a WMD was ever used on the US that we should counterattack with one. If we can't have control of the planet than no one can?

In a poll that was done after 9/11 the question was asked "if a nuclear weapon was used on the US should would be strike back with a nuclear weapon?" Sadly 68% of those asked felt that it would be the only appropriate counter-measure.And then you all wonder why I have so little faith in the human race.

Though my favorite example of the lack of knowledge of the consequences of a nuclear weapon would be showcased in the Sum Of All Fears.Ya know the scene where Ben Affleck is in what is left of Baltimore with nuclear fallout landing on his face. What a pitiful movie.

[ 13. April 2003, 12:51: Message edited by: poiaholic anonymous ]


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hold up... Now, it is very true that alot of you say your mind and while not all say it offensivly they do still say it. I think that it is good to speek your mind and if someone is offended by it, then its their problem. You had just better know that if you offend someone that someone might be able to offend you too.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Fair enough I suppose.

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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:The thing is I don't attack people for disagreeing with me or for having their own opinions. I do "attack" (it's a message board, for all I know this person is a 13 year old with an itch to infuriate) when that opinion is presented without any respect for..... well, anything.

Aside form that, as I pointed out in the beginning of my rant; he showed no respect to anyone else, so I showed none to him. I certainly don't expect or even remotely desire any from him in the future.

I think I've only ever really snapped at one other person before at that was in the Q&A thread.

As for picking a fight, well, sticks and stones may break my bones but words can burn forever ^_^

Believe it or not I'm a really nice guy who hasn't been in a real fight in quite a while.....

Though, yeah argueing with this guy is probably like punching a brick wall (a practice which I'm fairly certain broke my right hand's middle knuckle last year, but I never got it checked on, still works)

Like Ray said, don't expect respect or kindness when you come into a room swinging. I swing back.


No one knows me like I do.

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