Posted:In RE: Dio's post about unlawful combatants.
I won't touch the main premiss of your post, because you're quite right about Afghanistan. I will take a stab at the general ideals behind the Geneva rules of engagement. Yep. Guerilla Warfare and Terrorism is illegal, and you know why? Because it works against powerfull nations. The purpose of war, as stated by that brilliant accronym "We Are Right" is to change the minds of the enemy. It's popular because as we found out in Vietnam, it works! And as Iraq found out 10 years ago, fighting by rules designed by Western imperial nations with massive technological advantages does not (How long did that last? It's measured in HOURS).
So yes, I understand why they resort to terrorism. I understand why they resort to suicide bombings. I understand why they resort to ambush and guerilla warfare. I understand that there is another way to spell guerilla and I'm probably using it the wrong way ( ). If your out in the middle of the desert, with no cover, waiting to fight against the wrongs that the Powerfull Nation of the world (And there is only one now...) has wrought on your people, and you know that your rifle isn't even going to get a roung off because a couple hundred pounds of munitions are going to be dropped on your head first, yea, you might be looking for some new tactics, eh? Just like if they suddenly had a bomb proof shield (Say a jungle canopy?), we would have to send in troops and we'd never win. Eventually we'd have to withdraw, just like that other V-war. Desert landscape makes it a lot easier for bombs though...
And those set out by the Geneva convention are made for Western militarized powers, not poor nations. You can say "We have em, they can get them too (bombs)" but that just isn't true. We start out with a massively disproportionate advantage. It's like the bully on the playground who got held back one or two hundred grades and now no one on the playground stands a chance. What are you gonna do when he comes to steal your lunch money? Your gonna kick him in the balls because thats the only way to hurt him. Oh, but he's so strong BTW that he's now going to beat you to death. Sorry! Thanks for playing. Now don't you think you'd be a little pissed atyour helplessness? I have one word: Columbine. Those kids faced a kind of helplessness far below what these people face. You think the resulting feelings are more or less strong?
Shock and awe is stupid. It's might makes right, pure and simple. It may win a battle, but if it only builds support for the enemy, it's kinda counter-productive eh? You say its to protect our troops. Thats great. We've finally found a use for all the video game junkies in our country: the military! Guide bombs right into the houses of your enemies, without ever ACTUALLY going to war! It's more like poking a captured lab rat through the bars of its cage. There is a reason winning the "hearts and minds" of the people is so important. Plus this pre-emptive bull is a clear message to every other nation in the world: we know where you are. If you piss us off, we'll deliver a bomb right to your doorstep. We can do that, but we can't miss the market nearby...
So does might make right? Who do you entrust your rights to? To an oligarchy of wealthy business men under the pretense of a two-party system? Not when they murder indiscriminatly in my name, but again, I have no choice. It has been made for me. And as such I have to live with the weight of those deaths as we all do. Millitary spending was supposed to be cut back by HALF after the cold war, but it wasn't because of Bush Sr. and, surprisingly, a lot of the same people in office/cabinet now... You want a tax cut? Stop killing people. You want to get rid of terrorism? Fix the problems that you have been ignoring, and which you created. It's not jealousy as some advocates for war paint it. It's hatred for what we have done, and it will continue until that fact is brought to the fore of every Amerikan's mind. It's so easy to slip into your daily routine and forget about the problems of the world, but its always the forgotten who hurt you the most.
quote: Guerilla Warfare and Terrorism is illegal, and you know why? Because it works against powerfull nations. Actually, it only works against civilians within a nation and doesn't serve to change any sort of policy or practice by the agency in question.
terrorism n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments
The only instances I recall terrorism actually working are when it is used by a group already in power to subjugate its own people (case in point: Iraqi commanders shooting their own troops in the head who refuse to act as a way to motivate their comrades).
quote: And those set out by the Geneva convention are made for Western militarized powers, not poor nations. You can say "We have em, they can get them too (bombs)" but that just isn't true. We start out with a massively disproportionate advantage. That is why the rules fo war were created - to prevent the "big boys" from exercising their power too flagrantly. We know we have power, we set out in an agreement to restrict our use of that power to levels that are deemed fair by international convention. It is widely known that we are held to those rules, which is why Terrorism likes to poke at us like caged lab rats, to paraphrase ya Rules of War is a little colorful, but covers the bases.
Shock and awe I am still waiting for... and the guided bombs are a far cry from remote-controlled videogame junkies... I'm sure the guy who has to sit there with the laser targeting mechanism until the bomb hits is quite far from a comfortable living room gaming setup.
There is absolutely no excuse for the Columbine massacre. Those kids weren't jaded, powerless idealists who were just looking to get a message across, they were intent on killing because they wanted to inflict as much suffering as possible on the community. There was no organization or ideal they were serving, no religious or political agenda. They both had friends and associates, and were even (at least on paper) rather active and healthy, intelligent boys. Really the only thing they share with organized terrorists is that they were angry. Terrorists may involve suicide attacks, but those are part of a larger picture to advance a doctrine or punish a group that goes against their interests... if every al-Qaeda operative were to blow up, there would be no radical fundamentalist philosophy to survive them.
Oligarchy of wealthy businessmen? Yeah, I do agree with you there. The two-party system seems too "multiple-choice" for me, but it does what it needs to, in my opinion.
I'm still betting the "economic stimulus" plan started with driving up sales of duct tape and plastic sheeting
Terrorism worked against US marines when it drove them out of Beirut in 1983. In my opinion, it also worked on September 11th, when Al Qaeda successfully radicalized the world and caused the US to go to war with Islam. Now radical terrorism is going to increase ten-fold, and Americans (and Canadians, Australians, British, etc.) won't be safe anywhere. Bin Laden will get what he wants.
Terrorism works because the average person is plugged into the media. After a big terrorist strike, policy always changes for the worse.
The US is currently exercising its power pretty flagrantly. The geneva convention hasn't stopped it from doing that. Neither has the UN.
This is the first time in US history that the military has stepped in with the aim of completely overthrowing another major government. That sort of thing is usually done covertly, with the CIA. And it's usually done against small countries. This time, the US is taking on the biggest regional power in the Middle East. And it's doing it neither with approval from the world nor real justification.
Guerrilla warfare works as well. It worked for the US against the British in the Revolutionary War. It worked for the Vietnamese aginst the US.
It's simply warfare fought from a materially disadvantaged standpoint.
Posted:there is a lot to be said about the concept of "might makes right" and that simple statement "history is written by the winners of wars " and lets not forget on a very small scale "money is power"
the point made in this particular thread, that really interests me is the reference to the Colombine shooting. while we can all agree that any loss of life is terrible, i think it's interesting that many people are divided as to who the victims are
the kids shot in the attack , or the kids who were constantly being pushed and picked on until they could take no more and reacted in a violent way who then took their own lives .
it's really POV.... point of view so is operation Iraqi Freedom/ operation oil snatch
in the end it may be remembered as a great win for freedom as the people of iraq are liberated from their own contries leaders and the new leaders will no doubt be amiacable people who love the nations who set them free.
The marches against the war will be chalked up in the same books as the WTF , and all the other demonstrations by common people ... and when the kids and parents who marched this year and last year and the years before and the years to come .. when the marchers talk about the demonstrations , their families will roll their eyes and listen with a smirk on their faces.
i mean who takes the hippies of the sixties seriously? certainly the majority of western cutlure views them as a minor embarrasment or a major amusement.
what is the reality of this situation? i think it depends on your point of view.. and thats why no one can be right or wrong when they support the war or support the demonstrations.
greed is powerful and not just limited to nations... even on this board there are people who are sure to look after their own interests first... and is that such a bad thing?
there are very few wars fought with only one side thinking that they are right; usually both sides think they are right .. and according to their point of view they are right....
i think it's very intersting that people need to take sides thus labeling themselves ... every one gets to chant and show support .. everyone gets to feel "Right" ...
simple fact one: the biggest bully will push until bloodied
simple fact two: some situations are dealt with only at the lowest level of maturity
simple fact three: everyone's personal laws and rules are vitaly important to them and they constantly change and they rarely mesh well with other people personal laws.
simple fact four: YOU ARE WRONG ... no matter how right you are.
i asked my dad what he thought about the war .. and he said "which one ?"
there are a bunch of wars right now .. can you list them? or are you a media sheep? only a war with the states in it is important enough to know about?
pax ab bello
thats right i look like an albino ape that has had a bad day.. go ahead say something stupid... i dare ya !
Posted:Quite true Ivan, there is always war and fighting in this world. Don't worry I feel the same way about all of them, from my POV as you so aptly put it. This is simply an outlet for this specific one, so I won't go into all the conflicts. I mean if I was just a media sheep, I doubt I would be against this war, as the media here all conveys mostly the same attitude about it (Written press is a bit better of course).
Now as for Columbine's reference, I was pointing more to the psychological effect that constant bullying had on two kids. And then a bunch of other kids around the nation start doing it too. I was in high school at the time and I remember all the worried faces saying "Wow I didn't think that would have an affect on anyone." It was especially bad for me, because I had a friend commit suicide the previous summer. All that pain because someone had to play antogonizer. Now multiply the kind of anger that would cause your own people to do that, to want to inflict so much pain back on their own society, by the legitimate grievances of an entire people. It's easy to say "Yeah, that sucks, but its not my problem." until finally one of them gets so pissed off that tragedy occurs. Know what else they have in common? A simple "We're sorry" and actual productive negotiations realizing the legitimate concerns of these people probably could have prevented all that.
Geneva does have a lot of good rules of engagement. We just don't always follow it when it doesn't fit our interests. See that the Arab League is drafting a UN order for the US to withdraw? See the number of protesters in the streets of Egypt? Now we have Afghanis attacking again, the Palestinians are sending "gifts" to Saddam. Oh yeah we're doin a great job of protecting our future prospects huh. Well, maybe for Cheney's stock portfolio anyway (On a gov't awarded contract, WITHOUT any bidding). I don't want to stick my foot in my mouth with the Geneva rules, I am not all that familiar with them. I don't study war much. I'll put that book on my list for future reading though Dio, thanks.
Now as for my video game theory here... Your right, they are in an aircraft carrier or sub or something hundreds of miles away. We don't even have to use troops if we don't want to! To further my video game explanation, its like God: The Game. One push of the smite button and its all over. But I digress yet again... bombs in general are among the most deviant inventions of man, and I've already made my arguments against them here.
Shrug. Welcome to the Apocolypse. All hail emperor Bush. Selah, selah. I'm takin bets, what'll come first? The end of Terrorism or the end of our Civil Liberties?
Posted:Hmmmm, don't really feel like wading through all this, tired and I have japanese to translate.
Just have to say; right and wrong are morals and are thus highly subjective. Example, Muslim extremists believe it is morally "right" that should a woman ahve sex outside of marriage she be publicly stoned to death. They have the power over her to carry that out: the might. Many western societies believe that is wrong and oddly enough Western societies have the power to do something about that. Now, in both cases those who believe they are right have the might to make it so while one's "right" is in a direct reaction to the other's "right".
"Might makes right" adn the whole notion of "right" are a big tricky mess of crap.
Ethics are more solid. While under most modern sets of ethics causing death willfully is ethically wrong, it is also generally accepted within most sets of ethics that to take a life in the defense of another is acceptable. Furthermore, to sit by and do nothing to protect that person without the might to defend themselves is oft seen as ethically (though more often, morally) wrong.
Philosophy isn't going to help this conflict untill all parties involved have read all the same books, and uh..... yeah that's gonna be a few centuries guys ^_^
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Posted:Gurilla warfare is a wonderfull tactic used by most countries in some form of fashion or another. Ever hear of the SAS, Delta Force and whatnot... all those "Elite" groups are trained in differnt styles of Gurilla warfare.
Terrorisim, is different all together. It attacks people, not countries. Civilians are the targets normaly. Terrorisim is when a group or person try to influance governments, cultures, specific ethnic groups and so on by the use of tactics that are designed to kill, frighten, maime, or destroy civialian and government bodies.
There is a thing called a combatent and non-combatent, terrorisim usually goes after non-combatents. Non-combatents meaning your every day Joe Schmoe, civialians.
Look at East Timore, Philipians, 911 all these were attacks on primarily civilians.
So, what is fair? To be nice and gentle to those who could care less if they blow you up or not, or to get information from them using all means possible so that you can avoid another attack?
Be Anti-War if you want but you had better be Anti-Denial as well!
Dont kid yourself, you are of western influance, your a target and thats how they see you. Terrorisim doesnt just effect the other guy, it effects you.
You dont have to be all scared to come out of your home, but it would be foolish not to think twice about certain things.
Beefy, I am really loosing respect for you, "Thats great. We've finally found a use for all the video game junkies in our country: the military! ", that is like saying put the druggies on the front line they only want to kill themselves anyhow! Sorry man but that is just plain wrong.
How do you fix jealousy? You speek as though solving the worlds problems is a simple. Have you ever given a seconds worth of thought as to how you can stop religious persicution, murder, hunger, rape, genocide? My word, the only way to stop that is to get rid of all humans! One love just doesnt work when nobody really loves their fellow man. Who are you to change their mind anyhow? Are you that much more advanced that you can say who is wrong and who is write. I know I am not and I have yet to meet a human who is. Mistakes happen and people make bad choices sometimes they can move on other times they must be punished.
So when 200,000 Kurds died from Sadam and his chemical weapons, did might make right then? It is a small country so it must have been right.
In this world size doesnt matter anymore.
Look at Isrial, how many countries attacked them and yet they still fought back and won. They were fighting against superior numbers and weapons yet they fought on and won. Might doesnt make right.
Hey Pacifics, US at war with Islam... bud we aint at war with Islam! I dont see the US killing off thousands of Japenesse, or millions of its own people... do you?
Secondly, when the UN inspecters were kicked out of Iraq (a violation of the peace agreement) did the UN do anything? No, the UN failed and now the US is picking up the pieces. This should have happend four years ago, but no the UN wasnt strong enough and even still it is divided.
Sorry folks but it would seem that some of you arnt thinking. Ohh the poor Iraqi civilians they got killed when an American bomb hit the military target that was parked next to their house... think about this, Kill Americans or die... are they still poor Iraqis?
My word people Sadam uses his citizens as a human shield and then proclaims loudly that the US is trying to kill the people and accidentily leaving out the fact that there was a SAM or tank sitting next to those civilians.
Think people think please start thinking dont be sheep.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"