Forums > Social Discussion > is anyone actually pro war?

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holly


member
Location: bristol,uk

Total posts: 61
Posted:i notice that most of you on hop seem to be adamantly against this war. i was just wondering if anyone thinks that we should go to war?

i have spent the last few months totally divided and held no strong opinion for either side, and sometimes i have felt very anti war, but i think now it is the MAYBE the right thing to do. i know there are alot of reasons against this, and im not going to preach about stuff because to be honest i feel i dont know enough to do that, but havnt we spent the last 12 years trying to make saddam dis arm?

He is an evil man, and although bush and blair maybe calling this war for the wrong reasons or unfairly using the americans anger as a tool for support(ie as some sort of revenge after 9/11), he is evil and has to be got rid of. everyone follows him because they have no choice- they all hate him(iraqi people). he is stock piling weapons that COULD get into the wrong hands. just look at the 10,000 litres of anthrax that the UN weapons inspectores admited are unaccounted for( just last week) if we leave him now, he will strive for ultimate power and is a danger to world peace BECAUSE he has NO MERCY AND NO SHAME, and thats what he wants. power. i dont beleive it is about oil in my opinion- in bush's speech in azores he pointed out that the iraqi people would be the one to benefit from the iraqi resources when the country is rebuilt. (but he can quite easily lie i realise that- in his last attempt for frances vote). anyway, i just think that no one is really aprreciating the fact that bush andblair and trying to liberate iraq, whatever their end motive.

this is probably all wrong so feel free to challenge what i think. it just seems that everyone is in copycat mode with this antiwar thing without really knowing what is going on, and because of this media hype, following it without establishing opinions for themselves(especially the school kids out protesting but when asked why they are there, not really having alot to say, and the anti war parents who drag there toddlers along marches). i knwo its so sad that people are going to have to die to get rid of this dictator and regime, but im afraid it happens in his country anyway, and although a horrble way of putting it, in the long run, i think more lives wil be saved. last point-despite these views, i still think more terrorism will result from this war in the western world out of pure anger againts western society. anyway, maybe someone can challenge what i, and a few of my friends think, or is anyone else more pro war that anti?


Never doubt that a small group of crusties, activists, and politicos can change the world... in fact, it's the only thing that ever does ;-)

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:tired of discussing my reasons why

but i am ANTI ANTI ANTI

Peace, Love and Respect~

Kathryn


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:I'm pro-war for various reasons, but i stopped bothering to discuss it here. It just wound me up. Its worth remembering that the only real reason to debate on here is for fun.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Magnus


member
Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:I don't know.

I think Saddam is evil, but the US's reasons for getting rid of him aren't good enough.

So I don't know if we should go to war. Like a lot of people.

But I do know that you shouldn't go to war unless you are absolutely sure. As a country, we (the UK) are not sure, so we shouldn't.


Magnus... pay it forward

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Simian - debating - fun???

You obviously were not on my debating team in school! But then, it was run by nuns!!

Nuns! Reverse, reverse!!


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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ASTRO FAERIE
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

ASTRO FAERIE

ummmmmmm.............
Location: Rotherham, UK

Total posts: 724
Posted:To be honest i think there are reasons for going to war and just as many not to. I think Saddam is an evil man too, but the one thing ive always been taught is that if you take the life of someone who you feel deserves it, you are still taking a life and it makes you just as bad!
No matter who you are and what youve done, no-one has the right to take a life!.


Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realise that we
cannot eat money.

Cree Indian, 1909

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Waging a war on Saddam is one in which innocent Iraqi's will suffer

And also for selfish reasons - well I don't want to be caught in the crossfire!

I don't believe the governments give a shit about the people, just power.

What is the benefit in attacking Iraq?
If there is the arsenal of weapons capable of mass destruction, then we are going to die. Think Armageddon folks.

If they don't so many people will still die through the hatred that this war will create

Saddam's Son Rejects U.S. Exile Ultimatum
Tue March 18, 2003 06:51 AM ET
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The eldest son of Saddam Hussein rejected on Tuesday a U.S. ultimatum for the Iraqi leader and his sons to go into exile or face war, and said any U.S. forces that invaded Iraq faced a "bloody battle."
"The proposal...comes from a person who is not completely capable or fit...the proposal should be that Bush leaves office in America, he and his family," Saddam's son Uday said in remarks issued by his office.

"The wives and mothers of those Americans who will fight us will cry blood, not tears," he said. "They should not imagine that they will have a safe spot inside the land of Iraq or outside it."


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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tattty
SILVER Member since May 2002

member
Location: crapy planet thanet, United Ki...

Total posts: 158
Posted:"The goal of terrorism is to thrust people into chaos, confusion, to fan fear and mistrust, but it is vital that we never succumb to these emotions. We must rather bring forth the power of the human spirit in even greater measure, surpassing and exceeding the magnitude of the threat that faces us.

Many people have been pondering the question of whether any form of dialogue or engagement is possible with those who remain hidden behind the veil of anonymity.

What can people of good will do, how are they to respond to ruthless, cold-blooded acts of evil?

One thing is certain, reprisal invites reprisal. Any act of vengeance will inevitably provoke a response and the cycle will continue without end. This is the lesson, rooted in the depths of human nature, which has been learned at the cost of untold suffering and bloodshed."
(Daisaku Ikeda)

Was writen beginning of last year, but still very true.

xx


Make your own happiness by making others happy [Ikeda]

*they used to read me stories, as though my dreams were boring*

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primative_toys


happy hunting
Location: Brisnyland

Total posts: 228
Posted:the best defence is a good offence... heard commonly but still not enough... i here everyone talking about the innocents in iraq and the mideast/west (whereever ur commin from) and im not sure if they themselves put themselves in the same cattegory... I AM AN INNOCENT OF WAR!!!! i have no wish nor desire to give my life away because my government has chosen to let it ride and say' dont saddams 'A' bombs look nice thismorniing" seriouslly people if a war, if one could call it that as it will only last a matter of days if not hours, would you like to be on the side that retaliates after the initaial kaboom "byby london, or crawl out of the london subway drowning in your own bodily fluids due to serin gas, or be on the side who has secure each and everyone of you and ur childrens safety... sure bush is a f#ckin idiot spawns by a f#kin idiot and hes trying to clean up his fathers mess... peace and prosperity is a rediculus idea when everytime i see a plane fly over head i flintch and cringe, get it ova with so our kids dont have to no what a plane crashing into a building looks like huh... thankyou thats my speil, the intent was not to offend just to air my views as my father lives in newyork...

happyhunting
mythmitch


regret nothing, learn everything

fire_light_movement

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Kinudin (Soul Fyre)


veteran
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Total posts: 1325
Posted:quote:Originally posted by natalie:

One thing is certain, reprisal invites reprisal. Any act of vengeance will inevitably provoke a response and the cycle will continue without end. This is the lesson, rooted in the depths of human nature, which has been learned at the cost of untold suffering and bloodshed."
(Daisaku Ikeda)
This is how I believe it. And thus, terrorisim will never stop. Everyone has different beliefs which will then not bring childish "He did it, she did it" arguements, but full on wars.

Kinudin


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ivan..


ivan..

member
Location: Halifax, NS

Total posts: 165
Posted:there are times when armed conflict is needed.
i don't think this is one of those times

but really this isn't a war anymore than desert storm was a war ... it will be weeks of conflict in iraq, the invading forces will probably suffer more deaths from accidents and friendly fire than opposition .. eventually the us will take over the oilfeilds ( like iraq tried to do in kuwait ) cap the fires and all will return to normal except for the small fact

that the US broke it's promise to the UN because it couldn't get its way .. the United States of America Invaded a small under-armed country to enforce their beliefs and lifestyle on a tiny part of the world just to ensure the flow of oil.

i think we will remember these days not because of the conflict but because it is a turning point in global opinion about the "good-guys"... yep no more white hats for the states ..

kinda sad really


thats right i look like an albino ape that has had a bad day.. go ahead say something stupid... i dare ya !

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Pro-war people...
you want to get rid of Saddam, right?
and not put in another dictator, right?
well, it needs to be done, although it's not the only place where it needs to be done.

But that's not what's going to happen, and that's what makes the war completly pointless and wrong in my eyes in addition to my general beliefs taht peace is better.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:The US 'broke its promise to the UN' because Iraq broke its various promises to the UN but the UN is too divided to do anything about it.

People have said innocent iraqis will suffer, but by all accounts they are suffering already and will actually lead a much better life when they can speak freely without having their heads removed publicly and when they can choose their own leader.

I think this war is justified, but I can totally respect peoples anti war points of view. What p1sses me off is the huge anti war bandwagon that so many people are jumping on. Some people need to sit and think about all pros and cons and form their own opinions.

What also annoys me is the amount of grief people are giving Tony Blair. I think it is unjustified as he is in an awkward situation and in the long run it could easily be proved that war was the right decision (eg. if the region is stabalised and democracy is succesfully implemented). I for one think he is the most 'straight up' PM we've had since I was born - anyone who watched the MTV interview should agree and get off his back.

Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:One major theme I keep seeing reappear is that the "Anti-War" group (here on HoP, on TV, wherever) seem to be more concerned with how fit of leaders Bush and Blair are than with the actual motives behind an armed conflict. I see a lot of sentiment against these two individuals, but relatively little in terms of arguments in favor of peace. Has anyone publicly denounced the leader of Spain for allying himself with the US/UK? Has one of our most fervent supporters, Colin Powell, been ridiculed in this fashion?

I believe one of the main reasons the Anti-War group loses their credibility is the fact that they come off more as "bash the Texan Cowboy" in their rhetoric than with actually promoting peace in the world.

As for myself being pro-war.... I highly doubt anyone here is pro-war. War is killing, it is bloodshed, it is the most base and cruel element of human nature. I would say I am not pro-war, but in some circumstances it is (as Bush has stated) "the last option available." Sometimes in life, we have to deal with people who aren't going to act honorably, or in accordance with rules established for the good of civilization. How do we address an adversary who plays his game outside of the rules we have constrained ourselves to? Just my random ramblings. Gotta run to my dentist appointment now


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:*In a cool,calm tone*

What really pisses me off about this whole mess is that the US gov't sees no solution beyond measures of force.

We haven't even given the inspections the chance to work.Let's think about this,Iraq had been without UN inspection for a period of around 4 years.So we just expect them to just up and say "hey,we were wrong all this time,here's all our weapons and we'll cooperate now."

I am neither for or against.In some cases war is the answer but in some cases not.In '91 when Iraq invaded Kuwait then maybe it was necessary.In '03 when the US eventually invades Iraq I can not possibly conceive one good reason. Not when we have failed to exhaust all other options.



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Dr.NoodleHead
BRONZE Member since Mar 2001

member
Location: The Giant Mushroom, United Kin...

Total posts: 170
Posted:Anti anti anti.....

You have to have a damn good excuse for trashing a nation and I don't think we're anywhere near justified yet....


Fish are just like trees except they move and they're invisible

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:I honestly do not believe that an outside force can enact change for the better in Iraq. I am going to use a management analogy, because this is stuff I know.

But imagine this, there is a large company which has a really unhealthy culture. The bosses are bullies, the processes are bureacratic, people don't come up with ideas cos they know that not only will they not be listened to, they may even be ridiculed or lose their jobs for trying to rock the boat. But on the other hand, as long as they sit quiet it is a steady pay cheque and they don't have to think too much.

The board of directors recognises that this is a problem, so they hire the best management consultants money can buy. The consultants tell them to fire all the big bosses, and bring in new blood.

Unfortunately it takes much more than this for the culture to change. The people are so used to their steady jobs where they don't have to think, and they are really threatened and scared by change. They become intractable. This creates problems for the new bosses coming in. The new bosses find that the processes and mindset are so entrenched that they cannot change them, and they either leave or become just like the old bosses. Some of the new bosses struggle on trying to change things, but the board of directors slowly realises that if the company changes the way they do things, the board of directors will have to, and all off their lurks and perks will be gone, so they squash they new bosses down.

A company and a country is a tree with deep deep roots, it takes more than cropping off the top branches to change it. The people have to desire change and be given the means to enact it. They don't need to be rescued, they need help to rescue themselves.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Anti anti anti? That's a triple negative. 2 of them cancel each other out.

You'd save on typewriter ribbon if you just wrote 1 anti.


Just a thought.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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knagii
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

member
Location: brunswick ohio, USA

Total posts: 14
Posted:Was desart strike ever even finished... or have these last few years been an attempt to settle peacefully? Should have just finished the job the first time round. He's had his chance and he doesn't want peace. Drop a nuke... kill all them iraqi bastards that won't assassinate him! Hell we kill our leaders when we know they are outa line.... Wonder if anyone will kill.???.. OK shhhh not gonna say anything else. Though we really should try and kill one person at a time. Who's still waiting to see O'sama's head on a pike?

Really I'm not a violent person.


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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:A transcendentalist, turn-the-other-cheek, and "rise above it all" attitude are all well and good, untill you realize that the it's only making the other guy laugh his ass off.

Inspections were given a chance, 4 years ago.

It is not the job of the inspectors to FIND weapons to inspect, it is the job of the inspectors to INSPECT weapons without being given the run around. By forcing these people to investigate and obviously keeping things from the inspectors, Hussein is very much so ignoring and hell even mocking the UN (which is bending over backwards to protect the very government that is currently laughing its ass off at it).

It has been 12 years and still Sadam has regularly ignored the UN, his blatant lack of respect for the international community (something Bush is guilty of, but only for about 3 years, relax we'll elect someone else soon) and disregard for human laugh on all fronts more than justifies removing him from power.

There is talk that he is planning to torch oil fields, use civilians as shields. We already know he palces military instillations next to orphanages, schools, and hospitals with the express opurpose of ensuring that whoever (The US) blows up those instillations will surely kill innocents and thus take all the heat in the media and throughout the world without any regard for the fact that that idiot Sadam intentionally placed those civillian soft targets next to his military instillations for that express purpose. We also know he has gassed his own people, wish I had the exact number but something around 6,000 were killed I remember seeing that on the news (a traumatic set of images for a 5 year old). He has murdered several of his son-in-laws. When interviewed Iraqi citizens have to have a government "minder" around to ensure that they say just the right thing.

This man has to go.

Personally I feel the whole anti-war issue is not so much a peace protest as it is a protest to the way this administration has pissed all over the rest of the world. Bush, Rummsfeld, and Cheney have managed to dissrespect and insult the international community on several ocassions and this makes us look bad, very bad. As far as I'm concerned Colin Powell is the only higher up with any sense and the administration often undercuts his actions and statements (so much so that I've heard, should Bush sadly be reelected, Powell will not accept the position of SoS again).

Many of these antiwar protests have had just as large a thread of simple "anti-americanism" (which I'd like to just shove off to Bush, thanks much) as they have a "make love, not war" vibe. The fact is it really, really seems that most people opposed to war are primarily opposed to the Bush administrations poor handling of the rest of the world.

When asked, almost every protestor I've seen interviewed admits that Hussein is not a good guy and needs to be gone. Sadly, they've often said worse of Bush.... an exxagertion I find highly ignorant, but hey- that's just me. I find a murderous tyrant, long ensconced in his throne to be far worse than a simpleton elected 3 years ago and quite likely to lose at reelection.... different strokes for different folks I guess.

I think the real question here is not whether or not one is "pro war" or "pro peace", but "too insulted by Bush and co. to do anything but pick the other side simply to spite them" or "not yet insulted enough to say no to reason/reality" (reality is, Hussein has to go)

Also, bout that whole "wrong to take a life thing", we never said we were gona kill him if he were captured for god's sake. Ya make it sound like Bush wants to eat his heart. Offered the guy a chance to leave, he didn't take it.

Anywho, hope some of this made sense, I think it should..... but.... can lead a horse to water and all.....

edit: About putting OBL's head on a pike, the LAST thing we need is to make a martyr for an already religiously inspired pack of zealots to get behind. Thank you very much.

[ 19. March 2003, 19:45: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]


No one knows me like I do.

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