Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > need help with 5 beat weave (doubles staffs)

Posted: 13th Jan 2002
If that works....(and I have no idea if it will)

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Posted: 15th Jan 2002
i can do a 5 beat weave with my quarter staff........ ive tried what youre saying and couldnt get my head around the move at all, keep us posted and say how youre getting on!

Posted: 16th Jan 2002
arrgghh! THE WEAVE THE WEAVE THE WEAVE!!!please keep me update on this too, i don't have a clue what the five beat weave is, with poi or staffs, and would love to know if i a m alreayd doing it or if its something new i can learn.(Poi plus staff people please help us out)------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz

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Posted: 17th Jan 2002
Confusion!O'yeah, I have no idea of what I was going on about and now you wont have to read it.I'm just writing this, so that the few posts after this one wont seem strange. [This message has been edited by Blu'Fire (edited 16 March 2002).]

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 18th Jan 2002
If you choose a leading head for each of your staffs, you will see that poi moves and doubles moves are interchangable (right DangerBoy? ) if you do this, you will also notice that a 3 beat weave with staves is quite similar... to how its done on poi.Josh

Posted: 18th Jan 2002
Confusion!!dont get this beat thing your onna bout...as for the diffrence between poi ewave and double staff weave is that the staffs have to be crossed right? cos a follow time staff does in the same place as the first, if upside down. (maybe im confusing the issue)By 4 bet do you mean spinning a cross once on one side and swapping the cross over of another spin?I see three beat weave as the cross doing 1.5 turns on each side and the moving staff (the one that crosses the body) changes on each side, the same as poi 3beat. This kneeds fingerspins of course.anyway, dont think a true 5 beat by thease definitions is possible, tho Im probibly wrong.Incedentally, has anyone managed to turn the weave with sticks without dropping a beat? I can do it but I gotta drop the first beat after the turn. Maybe thats right..... hummmmm love ya,Nix

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Posted: 18th Jan 2002
as said by josh...just ignore the other half of the staff and you can use poi terminology for double staff moves...anyways (according to the above specifications) im not at all sure if a 3 beat weave is possible with staffs, i myself can do a 2 beat, but no matter how much i twist i cant seem to throw in another rotation, then again im no master with staff, so i cant say for sure, somebody with better staff experience might be able to say for sure...:looks around for Cantus:oh well, i think he told me one time he could do a three beat weave with staffs...

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 18th Jan 2002
i get the extra beat by using my fingers.. or is that cheating? ------------------If at first you don't succeed, tell everyone you did and hope they don't ask you to prove it...

If at first you don't succeed, tell everyone you did and hope they don't ask you to prove it...

Posted: 18th Jan 2002
id say cheating, but thats just me just joking...of course its not, if you can do it well its all legal...its quite another thing to try and pull of some tricky move by almost stopping the staff in its rotations so it will work, that i consider cheating...

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 18th Jan 2002
[Josh]I see what you mean. I can see how choosing a leading head for each staff can help. (edited to remove confusion, yet again)[This message has been edited by Blu'Fire (edited 16 March 2002).]

Posted: 20th Jan 2002

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Posted: 21st Jan 2002
As someone who just cannot understand the beat system relating to single or double staffs, i think the conecept of "the leading edge is just like a poi" may not be right for many situations IMHO.This would be a true statement if you held the poi in the same grip as you hold the staff.I know that with poi, i can have the palm facing down and the poi swinging three or four full circles at once.With a staff, if the palm is facing down, the only move I can do is a horizontal fingerspin, otherwise the staff just stops and doesn't move at all.There are some moves that seem to translate to poi by watching the action of the staff, although if you watch the hands and wrists, many of these moves are quite different in the way they are achieved (but not all of course).For example you cannot do a butterfly with double staffs using the same grip and wrist action as poi, unless you are hold the staffs by the end and not in the middle.Does this makes sense?------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz

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Posted: 20th Jan 2002
I don't know, I leave you alone for a few weeks and the place falls into disarray.By my reckoning the 3 beat is possible with doubles. Where you're all going wrong is you're trying to approach it from a poi point of view. Wrong.Poi and staff are different animals and should be treated as thus. That's not to say there aren't parallels and crossovers. Just don't expect to be able to do everything with both.OK. What did we want to know? 3 beat weave?The easiest way is to use fingerspins. As in do figure 8 for 1 "beat" on each side (left then right) and add 2 beats using fingerspins.Number of beats therefore increase with the number opf fingerspins you throw into the mix.The other way is a lot harder to explain (and hard to perform). It is somewhat akin to poi 3 beat.Cross one hand over the other (right over left) perform one spin/beat to the left of your body. Bring the whole thing in and under itself and across to your the other side of your body so your hands are crossed the opposite way. Perform 2 beats/spins.Not very clear I know. My apolgies.

Meh

Posted: 20th Jan 2002
Cantusyour right,,, it's not very clear...I tried again last night to do the 3-beat weave without finger spins and I'm still having trouble. I can get the movement of the 3 beat weave by just holding one staff with both hands. I first start by holding the staff on my left side with my arms crossed, with my right arm on top of my left arm, and my right palm is facing down and my left palm is facing up, my hands about 10 cm apart. I then uncross my arms, while keeping the staff on my left side, and then recross so that my right arm is now under my left arm, just as my arms are about to come together, I move the entire formation to my right side and then uncross and recross on my right side, and back again. I figure that all I need to do is find out which staff should lead and I should be right. But I keep getting tangled up with my staffs, and I just can't get my head around it. It is the split time of the staffs that is causing me trouble. I can do it form one side to the other and back again, and then I stuff it somehow, and I can't seem to work out what I'm doing wrong. I guess all I can do is keep at it. but can you give me any hints?

Posted: 20th Jan 2002
Bluey...Try putting a ribbon or differently coloured pieces of cloth on the ends of your staffs, this can help enormously with figuring out which end is where and whyfore...This has often heped me with moves that neither my brain nor my body can figure out...hope it helps you too. ------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 January 2002).]

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Posted: 21st Jan 2002
Right. Blu. Why are you staffs in split time? Try thinking of it more as chasing the sun (I'm a little hazy on Poi terminology so if this is wrong please forgive me). The staffs move at the same speed and remain mostly parallel at all times.That's how I do it anyway.Although, you've confused me with your description now. So, I'm going to have to go and work on this and get back to you.One suggestion for practice though, would be to get two small sticks (about 50cm). They're easier to follow than full size staffs. I find they help when I'm trying to work out flourishes and things.------------------C@ntusThere's only one way of life and that's your own.

Meh

Posted: 21st Jan 2002
theres a 5 beat weave??? :0 j/k*lol*i cant do it either.. im self taught and i jsut figured out the regular forwards weave with poi.. cant do it backwards yet.. or btbthe btb ones are killing me...

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Posted: 22nd Jan 2002
Charlesthanks for the tip, I'll try it next time I spin.Cantusoops sorry, I didn't mean split time, I think I need to re-read naming staff moves. I havn't got all the terms down as yet. I mean that one staff is a 1/4 spin in front of the other. I've been calling it split time in my head for ages, and it sort of sliped out. I can't see what you mean by mostly parallel. but don't worry, I think I might try and work it out before I post any more on this topic. I'll also give that two short sticks idea a chance. thanks for your posts, they are helping.

Posted: 22nd Jan 2002
yoHere is how I weave, clear as I can,start with both staffs upright on your right hand side, thumbs pointing up, left hand in front.cross the right staff forward over left, (inside the left) and with the thumb end come down across the body to the left hand side.Once the staffs have made a cross the left hand follows the leading tip of the right hand so that both hands should be on the left with the right staff on the outside and further from the body than the left staff.Now to get the third beat it is neccesary to fingerspin with the right hand. You only kneed 1/2 a spin so one finger is all it takes. For forwards I like to use the 1st finger (thumb, 1, 2, 3, 4, pinky) tucking it under the staff as it comes across and leting it have the half rotation in the space between 1st and 2nd.as the right hand is doing this extra 1/2 spin the left hand comes over the right and becomes the new leading staff for the next side, same procedure.just remember, the staff that has the fingerspin must be further away from the body than the staff comming over. backwards is just the sme thing uside down.Warning! practicing backwards weave with your good shades on may save your eyes but ruin your day.hope this works...Np.s. no-idea how to do 5 beats.

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Posted: 22nd Jan 2002
The 3 beat weave is the easy bit. Trying not to get the staffs tangled while keeping a flowing rhythm is the tricky bit. The 3 beat weave: Cross one hand/staff (or arm to start with) over the other. For example, right hand over left hand, on the left side of the of body) - first beat. Uncross, so the left hand goes over the right hand, still on the same side of the body ie left side - second beat. Rotate trunk, and move hands to the other side of the body (ie the right side) and uncross hands again (right should now be over left) - third beat. Rotate trunk and move back to the starting position on the left side of the body (right hand should be still over left left). Repeat and you get a three beat weave. In another thread, Josh suggested that it was easier to uncross for the second beat in front of the body. This will help, especially if you are doing the lower fountain. I'm not even trying for the 5 beat weave. Hope this helps [This message has been edited by Stone (edited 23 January 2002).]

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 22nd Jan 2002
What Stone said. That's what I meant. It was meant to read "(mostly) parallel" - which won't be any clearer for you.Everything I do with doubles is symmetrical. Completely. So any movement of one staff is matched completely by the other. That's what I mean by parallel. It's not strictly possible to maintain this throughout this move which is why i said "mostly".Clear as mud.....------------------C@ntusThere's only one way of life and that's your own.

Meh

Posted: 22nd Jan 2002
Nix?thanks, I had wondered how the finger spin method worked. I was thinking that I needed to do the finger spin with both hands at the same time, and I thought too hard. I should be able to do it the way you described, I'll try it out when the rain stops, hopefully tonightI'm very good at finger spins with my right hand, but I'm crap with my left hand, so we'll see. Stone/CantusI think I see what you are getting at. if it is as you describe and if the staffs remain mostly parallel, then I may be able to do the 3-beat weave.I've been doing the weave, where the staffs have not remained parallel to each other, but perpendicular to each other (or mostly perpendicular). With a two-beat weave it is easy to keep the staffs in a cross formation, but getting the extra beat (while maintaining the cross formation) in the 3-beat weave is very hard.I think in we might be talking about two different types of the double staff weave. one being the parallel weave, and the other being the perpendicualar weave. [This message has been edited by Blu'Fire (edited 16 March 2002).]

Posted: 23rd Jan 2002
Wish I had read this thread before sunday lol. I was just spinning backwards single staff (tryting to speed up my turns) and clipped my shades. They flew into the air in front of me, then the other end of the staff caught up and smashed them in mid air and they flew across the park. They were bent, but I managed to bend them back into shape, sort of

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Posted: 23rd Jan 2002
Surloch, that would be cool to do on purpose, but how does this thread help with that situation?And what brand of subglasses were they, i'd love ot have a pair I could beat up with a staff and still have them intact ------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz

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Posted: 24th Jan 2002
You just play too rough Charles. I hope for the sake of your young lady you are capable of a little tenderness.... ------------------C@ntusThere's only one way of life and that's your own.

Meh

Posted: 23rd Jan 2002
Have a look at the story in the "catching a staff" thread (which is aimed at you anyway dude...).It will show I am capable of extreme tenderness, on the odd occasion hee hee hee------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 24 January 2002).]

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Posted: 24th Jan 2002
Hi Blu'Fire, I hope I'm not pissing on your boots and telling you its raining. What I was trying to say was that learning to weave doubles is a two step process. Firstly, you need to be able to do the weave in your sleep, so check out how to weave, in Poi-lessons on this site (House of Poi) and learn the weave. There was a great video showing how to learn the weave with a single staff, but I couldn't get the video to run. Anyhow, check out the site and read the info on the weave https://www.calefaction.org/teach/weave.html
it is still very helpful. Secondly, and I'm no expert on this, you have to figure out how to intertwine two sticks together while doing the weave. This is more difficult than it seems because unlike poi or clubs you have four wicks to weave (X). Although, to get started, it may help to hold each staff by it's end (club like) so you can get the weave pattern going without having to worry too much about getting the sticks crossed up (recommend short practice sticks for this one). Well, that about it. Just keep practicing. You will get it eventually

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 25th Jan 2002
How do you enter and exit the weave with doubles? The only way that I can do it without grimacing and feeling like i'm gonna catch one in the face is to start off with both staff spinning the same way. As though both thumbs face up on each side of your body and just your body turns 90 deg to the right.Now - the left hand goes down low in a 3 beat as you drop the thumb edge behind you(forwards spinning if you face that hand) and the right is lifted up high(reverse spin 2beat if you face it).At the point where your right staff has done 2beats and returned to where it has started you bring that leading thumb edge acrosss and down to your left to the same side of your body as your left hand.As your right hand is doing this, the left is moving to your right to make room.This is only two beats! you have to fingerspin methinks to get more beats in a weave (unless you can do strange things with your shoulders).This is basically a low turn while raising the right hand before executing the 2beat weave with the left hand leading. In regards to there being one side being more difficult than the other (forwards and reverse weaves - Done the way described above one hand follows the other closely, just one beat behind. So I can go from this to reverse 2 beat only by seperating the staffs and turning but if I wanna turn left from my revers 2 beat weave - it flows right through.I am not totally sure but I think it is the same theory as to why you only put extra beats on two instead of four corners when you do a 360 with five beats. I answered to a tread on staff beats a little while back if my 'beats are not making sense.I know poi terms are not too welcome to some but this animal definatly works for me to some degree.Just one more thing about that starting position. If you continue with any more spins and your staffs stay in those respective 2 and 3 beat moves (and considering they should be spinning the same speed) you have a really organic looking 12 beat polyrythem.You can break out of that by executing alternate 2 and 3 beat rotors alternativley for a cool fountain effect.I have just re read my post and have realised I am addicted to (brackets)!!! Hope it is clear ish.Apart from doing this with the other hand on top or from the other side, what other ways can you link in the weave. Apart from bumping it back on it's self?Please excuse the long post, I will not make a habit of it.Much love,TEMPEST

Posted: 25th Jan 2002
Sorry that I did not reply to your names peeps but my head was full of bloody beats. Forgot about these guys too!TEMPEST

Posted: 27th Jan 2002
TEMPEST when I'm going into the two beat weave, I start much the same as you, with both the staffs moving in the same direction, while keeping them mostly parallel to each other. when both my thumbs are pointing up, I stab my right hand quickly across, and over my left up, such that it is now a 1/4 spin infront, and then I'm in the weave. I'm not too good with coming out of the weave, I tend to end up doing a finger spin with my right hand, and a standard figure eight with my left, while working out what to do next.Nix?I've almost nailed the 3-beat weave with finger spin. StoneI can do the movement of the 3-beat weave, with nothing in my hands, no problem. I try it with the poi, and I almost kill myself. I even lit them up, after giving in to the naggings of a friend, and almost caught myself on Fire. The poi is begining to scare me. anyway. the trouble I'm having is trying how to 'intertwine two sticks together while doing the weave' I'm guessing that one day, it will just work, and I wont know how.I check out the site, but I already knew how to use a stick to help with the movement of the weave. Thanks anyway, It may just help someone else, who happens to read all these posts in the future. [This message has been edited by Blu'Fire (edited 16 March 2002).][This message has been edited by Blu'Fire (edited 16 March 2002).]