Forums > Technical Discussion > What is the Temperature of a Burning Poi?

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Code128


member
Location: Boston, MA USA

Total posts: 69
Posted:Does anyone know the answer to this?

How about the differences between a Lamp Oil Soak and a Coleman Soak?

Thanks
Code128


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Paddy


back from the dead...sort of
Location: 4341'N 7938'W

Total posts: 884
Posted:Would depend on the flashpoint of the fuel, which depends on the chemical makeup of the fuel.

There is a page all about different kinds of fuels...you can find it here. I haven't checked it out in a while though, and I can't remember if flashpoints for each fuel were listed or not. Would make sense if they were though.

Hope that helps.


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Code128


member
Location: Boston, MA USA

Total posts: 69
Posted:I dont know if the Flash Point is what I am looking for.

What I would like to know is how hot is a Poi when it is dangling at the end of my chain and burning away merrily?

And then of course what the Temp difference is between Coleman(White Gas) and Lamp Oil?

Code128


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:lamp oil hot.....white gas VERY hot!!!

The tempurature also depends on the wick size and the amount of fuel on it. Try putting an oven thermometer in the flame, it will probably go off the scale. The melting point of lead is about 600 degrees, and you can melt lead in a regular fire.
The flash point is the tempurature needed to start the fire, the actually tempurature of the flame (while it is burning) is much higher than the flash point.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:like, thermite has a flash point of 2000 degrees, but it burns at 3000 degrees.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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rex


rex

member
Location: Holiday, FL, USA

Total posts: 263
Posted:are you looking for flame temperature, which i think would remain semi-constant..

or wick temperature, which would increase over the length of the burn i'm guessing?


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Mark P
BRONZE Member since Oct 2001

Mark P

old hand
Location: Bath, England

Total posts: 1031
Posted:With kero/paraffin based fuels the actual burn temperature of the flame is quite low, I am doing a lot more moves where I wrap my chains and the flame comes into contact with bare skin for a reasonable ammount of time without causing burns.

What you have to be careful of is the fact that the wicks are attached to metal (swivels/d-links-chains etc). These are good conductors of heat and can also hold a lot of heat so this is where burns can be picked up.

I have never had a burn from actual fuel, you can pick up a burning wick (avoiding metal) and throw it without too much worry but I have had some little burns fron the chains or the metal tube used for some types of wicks.

Hope this helps,

Mark P


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
Posted:European or African?

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Code128


member
Location: Boston, MA USA

Total posts: 69
Posted:Well everyone certainly has good points, but no one seems to have any idea how hot a burning Poi is.

Maybe some one can do a test, like Adam Rice or the BearClaw guy. Anyone with some equipment?

Actually if anyone knows an HVAC guy (Heating and AirConditioning) they have really neat hand held thermometers that they can just point at an object hit the trigger and get a temp reading.

Someone try it.

Code128


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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:I actually bought a high-temp thermometer for just this purpose, but it broke before I had a chance to try it out. Haven't gotten around to replacing it.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Code128


member
Location: Boston, MA USA

Total posts: 69
Posted:Thanks Adam,

I look forward to your conclusions, whenever you replace your thermometer.

And dont drop it this time

Code128


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DeadManWalkin30


member
Location: Staten Island, NY

Total posts: 25
Posted:this has nothing to do with Poi, but paper burns at 451 degrees farenheit, and i would imagine a Poi is a lot hotter

Fanaticus Incendi -Pyromaniac

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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Actually, 451 is the flashpoint for paper.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Sorry to go off on a tanget for a sec, but has anyone seen a film (I think it's probably a book too) called Farenheit 451?

It's set in a future that's banned all books because they encourage independant thought - Firemen patrol around burning books they discover.
In case you hadn't guessed, I really like it

[ 29 July 2002, 11:01: Message edited by: TheBovrilMonkey ]


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:yes, it's a tangent (let's close it after this, shall we?) but between Adam and Monkey last 2 posts, i know learn why the book+movie are called Farenheit 451. hmmm!!!

would be interested if anyone has a clear answer on the original question by Code128


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Bear


member
Location: Seattle,

Total posts: 8
Posted:All of the petroleum fuels mentioned melt lead and zink which melt at about 800 degrees Farenheit. None of them melt brazed joints which melts at about 1800 degrees. Usually the fuels have to be oxidized with pure oxygen to reach the higher temperatures required for melting brass !!800 or steel 2300 degrees F.

The amount of wind and the fuel temperature have some effect on the temperature achieved in the flame, also the part of the flame that is playing on the item of concern.

Bear

Some of the fuels, like deisel are harder to light, but they burn just as hot once they get going.

Alcohol flames are quite cool and you can play games burning paper soaked in alcohol without actually burning the paper. Note: the paper will start to burn when most of the fuel has burned away, so wave the flame out before this point when demonstrating with $100 bills. Alcohol flames will not melt lead so the temp has to be in the 500 to 700 degree F range.


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Ajtag


Ajtag

The occasional one...
Location: nottingham

Total posts: 445
Posted:i have found that it also depends on the design of the Poi.. diffrent Poi have burnt at diffrent temps, i think do to the amount of air supplied (that would be the logical thing) all my Poi i have used parafin yet on some a have managed to melt the metal links holding the wire together and on other Poi there has been on effect on them so i guess it depends on how you make them

There are 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who dont.
Enjoy - A

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tiamat_22580


tiamat_22580

I will kill all mods
Location: mods suck

Total posts: 210
Posted:poi? fire is fire who cares how hot it gets other than when its burning you

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:I would like to agree with Tiamat.

I'm not sure why you want to know the answer to this question. Without clarifying your reasons, Code128, it sounds at the moment, like the old question...

"How long is a piece of string"

Could you share with us the need for such precise information?


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Code128


member
Location: Boston, MA USA

Total posts: 69
Posted:Charles,

If you want to know the reason for the question here you go.
I was thinking of how to create self igniting Poi, How cool would that be?
Plan was to embed a length of Nichrome wire in the construction of the Poi, this wire gets very hot when current is passed through it.

Soak in Coleman, Apply current and Bamm! lit Poi, Problem will be the temp of the Poi may get hot enough to melt the Nichrome wire, and then you have a single use setup, not as cool.
So thats the reason for the Question, trying to figure out if the Nichrome will melt or not.

Josh


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Fire By Riz tm


member
Location: tampa fl usa

Total posts: 212
Posted:Code128
maybe this wil help you some the most common wicking (kevlar) has a melt point of 750 degrees
I have used alot af different fuels on my wicks and yet have i melted wick . i did some self lighting fire tools not Poi though i had good luck with some info on a old thread on the topic using pezso( mis-spelled) igniters one thing i did learn from it make sure you have a coverove the button or a kill swtich built in so it can be disabled when dipping trust me someone will pick it up and hit the button when it is in the fuel jug people just love hitting buttons even more so when they dont know what they do, good luck i hope this helped . Riz


I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:Riz, kevlar melts at 750 Fahrenheit?

Tedward of Bearclaw tole me white gas has a minimum burning temp of 700 degrees

Though he doesn't have long-term data on fireheads yet, having been in business officially for a year, he says pure kevlar nomax wicks are believed to start long-term degredation when exposed to temps of 4-500 degrees, while "hybrid" kevlar nomax + aparamid/ pararamid(sp?) blend doesn't start to degrade until 650

when Code128 asked what the temp of burning Poi is, surely the answer is the temp at which the flame is burning... and the kevlar is just picking up a portion, probably most, of that temp?


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Ajtag


Ajtag

The occasional one...
Location: nottingham

Total posts: 445
Posted:well the kevlay will be cool compared to the fire becouse of the fuel evaporating off keeping the wick temp low

There are 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who dont.
Enjoy - A

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Goddess_Of_Pyre


member
Location: Michigan, USA

Total posts: 107
Posted:OK, Please foregive me if I am out of line ( which I tend to do from time to time) but wasn't the orginal question:
How about the differences between a Lamp Oil Soak and a Coleman Soak?

What does the temp of the wick, the flame , or flash point have to do with the differences? Please inform me. Thank You


And all my days are trances And all my nightly dreamsAre where thy gray eye glances And where thy footstep gleams-In what ethereal dances By what eternal streams. Edgar Allan PoeThe prophet is a fool and the religious man is fucking mad, and for the multitude of your sense and your inequity, and the great hatred......NANCY BOY

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:Josh, like the self-igniting idea a lot, do you know the other half, what the melt point of Nichrome wire is? (haven't searched for Riz's old thread)

molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Code128


member
Location: Boston, MA USA

Total posts: 69
Posted:Hey FireMike,

You can actually purchase a whole range of different nichrome wires that have different melting points from something like 400deg and on way up, Im sure these all have different resistance(s) which will impact how you power the wire.

I forget the site I was looking at, but you can probably google and find it pretty easy.

In terms of powering this thing, I was thinking of some type of pack that is strapped to the user and is either switched or perhaps only completes a circuit when you hold your wrists together or something like that.

I dont think you'll be able to have enough power in a small enough package to attach the power source directly to the Poi themselves.

Give a post if you get anything working.

Peace.
Code128

[ 17 August 2002, 09:09: Message edited by: Code128 ]


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Fire By Riz tm


member
Location: tampa fl usa

Total posts: 212
Posted:the thread on the pezo igniters was under a self lighting staff it wasnt my old thread just one i remember reading ..we had even talked about using a flash paper shooter that magians use it will shoot an ignited piece of flash papper about 6 ft and the aim is pretty good with it ,, but they run about 60 bucks each i lost the url when my hardrives crashed but the name of the place i saw them was daytona fire magic.. as far as the temp of 750 degrees that is the melt point i got from the kevalr manufactor i use as far as i know there is nothing speical about the stuff i use prob made by the same people who making wicking for anyone else

I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:Riz, 6 feet, good trick, pity it costs a lil, nice tip

Code128, so it's the gauge of the wire that affects its melt (at least for a certain range of diameter) or there are different alloys?


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:code, just noticed your sig and went there...

Athelion's cool name, born and spent some time in college in Boston myself, good site ya got, i'm just getting an early simple one up for us here at OrangeFire in Orange County's coast + Oceanside + San Diego and some LA peeps. ya make me sure we gotta have a serious long fire-fingers member soon, or CREATE ONE! props


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Tedward


Tedward

member
Location: LA,CA, USA, SOL3, Milky Way, A...

Total posts: 30
Posted:Lamp Oil (parafin) - Oil, usually clear, though you can get it colored and scented (will not change the burn color). Usually requires a little more soaking than the other fuels (a couple of minutes) to fully load. Has a very high flash point and low vapor pressure, so it won't produce flammable vapors if left open for an extended period. As a side effect, it takes a long time to light (you have to heat the surface of the Poi up to the flash point) and it goes out easiest of the fuels at the very beginning of the burn. Para burns longest of all fuels with a typical orangy flame, and is fairly clean (doesn't leave biohazzard toxins behind), but can be quite smokey. Also, it can help propagate a low oxygen burn (embers) on flammable materials (denim, hybrids, etc) if left to simmer after a burn. Pure paraffin is the lowest impact petro-chemical on the body making it popular for fire breathers.

Naphtha ("white gas", mineral spirits, Coleman fuel) - The hottest burning of the common performance fuels with the highest oxygen needs. It has a very low flash point and high vapor pressure making it an extremely volitile fuel, and the most dangerous to leave open. It lights quickly and can burn on almost any surface (including ice) making it popular for contact fire, and fast ignition tricks. It burns hotter and shorter (about 2/3 time) than most other fuels with a characteristic blue-gold flame, and leaves a bit of a toxic residue in the air, but doesn't usually leave a smokey residue.

Kerosine - A dirty version of lamp oil, giving most of the same properties except that it lights a bit quicker and has carcinogenic afterburn residues.

Isopropyl Alcolhol - An inexpencive, short chain alcohol that burns like methanol and ethanol in similar dilutions, but doesn't intoxicate the body. Fast lighting, but weak burning in almost any dilution, Iso burns super clean, even to the point of removing toxins during a burn. 99% Iso will give a short burn with a very similar look and reactivity to Naphtha. For colored flames, an alcohol must be used; Iso will dissolve most of the flame colorants and isn't neurologically active like the shorter alcohols.


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Fire_Emanator


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 96
Posted:If Nichrome wire is not too pricey, why not try it out a few times and see how it goes!

Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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