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Posted:
Hi!! I'm an italian poi twirler... I've seen in a site some mixes to colour flames; www.geocities.com/firepoiit makes coloured flames adding chemicals to ethanol, methilated spirits or alchol... my problem is that my flame is coloured but it's not strong! I can't do nothing because when i twirl my poi they turn off... how i can make a stronger flame???thanks!! Paolo

Chotysmember
91 posts

Posted:
I don't know if this will help you 'Eskimo' but how much of a certain chemical do yo add to your fuel? Have you tried mixing larger amounts of chemicals into your fuel...i don't know if this makes stronger flames but if you add more of the chemical it should (theoretically) make the flame a 'stronger' flame. Hope that helps a bit!:Chotys:

NYC_not_PKOne Tyred Guy
203 posts
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy


Posted:
Ah... the topic of the week I guess.There are currently two other related threads running on this topic in the social section so I'm going to propose that we make a plan:IF you have worked with colored flames, tell us exactly what you did and how well it worked.If not, shush. No theoretical chemistry (so shut up Mrmo), no "I had a friend who's sister said that one time she..." If you've heard a rumor, try it and tell us how it works, what fuel you used, how much salt, etc...Just cold hard facts from people who've actually done it.

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug


Shibakienthusiast
309 posts
Location: Tampa, Fl


Posted:
Alright folks, after tonight, I will relate my experiences with you all. I am using the trusty dusty boric acid. THe only thing I didnt understand through all the thread previous and present, was what in the world all these chemicals dissolve in. I dont even want to try out alcohol. I read somewhere that it will dissolve in alcohol, but oh well. So Im trying it out with coleman... Most of it seemed to dissolve, or at least dilute? Ill see when I get to my dance spot, wont I? Wish me luck!------------------We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.~Edgar Cayce

Wow


Shibakienthusiast
309 posts
Location: Tampa, Fl


Posted:
Boric acid does NOT dissolve in coleman gas...I didnt try it with kero... I guess I have a lot of studying to do, huh? ackPeace------------------We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.~Edgar Cayce

Wow


SupaflyBRONZE Member
TNT
173 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA


Posted:
Yeah, the ole Boric Acid trick needs to be dissolved in Denatured Alcohol or methanol to get it to work. I've also heard that it'll work properly with lighter fluid, but haven't found out for sure.

Fear the evil monkey!


Rick aka LokiBRONZE Member
member
134 posts
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Posted:
Methyl Hydrate is what I use as a fuel base for boric acid. You can get it in hardware stores. -Rick

-Rick aka Loki
oh, man, a signature?... uuh... this is like coming across wet cement... uuh, shoot, I had something clever I was saving... I hope I don't run out of sp


Shibakienthusiast
309 posts
Location: Tampa, Fl


Posted:
Methyl Hydrate, Rick, by any chance, do you know how long the burn lasts? Also, what is used for besides us crazy people doing amature chemistry? (This for a cross reference for someone at the hardware store helping me find it!)ThanksBTW, I made some towel wicks, and I laced them with boric acid. So dissolving or not, Im going to get some colors on this one!
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------------------We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.~Edgar Cayce

Wow


Chotysmember
91 posts

Posted:
Ok guys,If you want to get boric (or boracic same stuff) to dissolve properly try using something like methelated spirits or shellite. Now i know that both of these fuels have a *VERY* hot flame compared to kero and most other fuels because they are alcohol or petrolium based and if you hit yourself you are more likely to get lit on fire...but anyway...using shellite should work and because you would (i think) only be using boric acid every now and then (like the last finale in your show) the chancers of you getting ill from shellite or boric acid is less. So as long as you aren't using shellite, boric acid or any other chemicals too often then you should be right! I hope that helps a little bit. Bye everyone:Chotys:

Masayamember
6 posts
Location: Brighton, England.


Posted:
Hey guys, I'm a ceramicist and I have pleanty of access to lot's of chemicals that I use to glaze with. I've heard that barium compounds work, and I have this but does anyone have any other advice on barium before I plough on and [probably} get hurt?! Not to worry if you don't, after all I'm the one who's supposed to know! It's just that firing pot's and spinning fire is inheirenty very different. xxxx Masaya xxxx

xxx Masaya xxx


DJ DantanaBRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA


Posted:
1. I tried dipping towel wicks in "denatured alcohol saturated with boric acid powder", the flame was greenish, but VERY weak. 2. another time I tried lacing a towel wick with boric acid (disolve boric acid "to saturation" in hot water, then pour on towel, then dry and role it up into a wick) I did not notice any color change at all (compared to the "control wick". I was using an orange burning hydrocarbon based fuel this time.so far I am zero for twonext I will try lacing and using a white burning fuel light camp stove fueljust in case the orange flame masked the green color. (but I don't think this will work if my theory below is correctTheory: Mr. MO, don't the ions have to be seperated in order for the color to appear? in other words, if the salt "decomposes" under heating, but the charges remain bonded in +/- pairs, wouldn't there an absence of color change. That would mean that the ions need to be solvated. I know ioninc bonds (NaCl, etc) are very strong, don't they stay together during "decomposition" via overheating. Experimental data: For example, when my "laced" wicks were burning in hydrocarbon fuel, I watched the crystals "sizzle and pop" (BTW, that is the scientific term!) I could not see any color change however. also, Rick,( or anyone who has tried it) does that methylated hydrate stuff give a big flame?

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!


DJ DantanaBRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA


Posted:
Dear Mr. Mo,would the wick material also have an effect on the flame brightness? for example, if I use towel wicks (a cellulose bases material, which has alot of -OH groups that can perform hydrogen bonding) with an alcohol (ethanol, which also has H-bonding) wouldn't the affinity of the fuel for the wick (h-bonding) prevent the fuel from leaving the wick readily enough to get a large flame? There for if I was using a different wick material (wool, or maybe kevlar???) I might get a bigger flame with the same stuff. Theory: wool is made of long chain amino acids some of which have available h-bonding sites but I don't think there are as many as cellulose, also I am not sure how "polar" wool is. I wouldn't think it would be to polar, but I am not positive. I don't know the structure of kevlar, but I doubt it has alot of h-bonding sites, or polarity. (isn't it some sort of polymer?) Do I know what I am talking about or am I totaly off base? Please help me here, Mr. Mo. (I am not going into vaderwalls forces or dipole moments cause that would take up to much room) I am not certain as to the net effect of these atomic forces or which of the four would have the greatest effect.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!


Blackbirdmember
337 posts
Location: London UK


Posted:
I concur with... um... the last person who said stuff.

x X x Ĉ К я x X x


NYC_not_PKOne Tyred Guy
203 posts
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy


Posted:
Have no fear guys, I have found the ANSWER!Actually, after chating with some reliable sources, it seems that I was barking up the wrong tree. I tried soaking in lamp oil and then DUMPING TONS of Boric Acid on only one my wicks (a true science experiment).NOTHING happened. That is they both burned the usual yellow flame. Actually it was a BIT greenish for the minute before it died.The problem appears to be sodium contamination NOT solubility. Sodium burns the nice ORANGE flame that we're all used to. It seems that Lamp oil and such contians some sodium to make it burn brighter which masks the color of anything else! This means you need to use a fuel with no sodium in it like methanol. I have also heard that if you've EVER used a wick with lamp oil it is contaminated and won't burn anything but yellow even if you use non-colored fuels but I didn't confirm that.So all of our wonderful bonding, polarity, ionic charge arguements seem to be superceded by one stupid element.But I did find a cool thing to do. Take a sterno can (I found a bunch of them for $0.44 each, be careful they can be GROSSLY overpriced.) Put a bunch of Boric Acid in it, then light it. GREEEEEEEEN! Might be nice as a lantern from which to light from. Be careful with those things thought, as the flames for uncolored sternos are REALLY hard to see (no sodium, see!) And, of course, you just put the caps back on to extinguish them and use them next time...So, as a newbie, I'm not going to use any fuel hotter than lamp oil so I guess I'll have to wait for pretty colored flames...Finally, as for the toxicity of Boric Acid. I dumped a TON of 100% Boric Acid Roach Poison on a renegade roach that was in my house. He looked up at me, essentially fipped me off, and then went about his buisness. Two days later I see this white roach in my sink and realize... IT WAS THE SAME GUY! Ahh, the joys of living in NYC.
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PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug


SupaflyBRONZE Member
TNT
173 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA


Posted:
Yes, yes, methanol. You can also use Denatured Alchohol which will work as well. Dries out your wicks quicker though so I'd suggest using towel wicks b/c they are much cheaper. I was a chem student at UNC so my friends in the labs are gonna get me some Potassium Permangenate to play with. PURPLE! Yay. I'll let you now how it turns out.

Fear the evil monkey!


DJ DantanaBRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA


Posted:
dear supafly,What type of wick are you using with the methanol and/or ethanol? (are you using kevlar?) I tried a towel wick and the flame was so small you could hardly see it, and it would go out if i spun faster than 1 rotation per second. however, there seemed to be alot of fuel left in the wick (because fuel affinity for the wick, the fuel wouldn't leave the wick?!?!?!?) I want BIG flame and LOTS of color!

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!


Posted:
I Juggle torches so I can tell you how I mix chemicals for that. I always use denatured alcolhol and boric acid. (paint stripper and roach killer if you want to find it at the hardware store). On kevlar wicks it burns fairly well though not quite as nice as a yellow flame so I only burn green at night. I found the best way was to mix the two together till the liquid turned a bright blue color then add a bit more boric acid into the mix. If you have too much alcolhol you will get a yellow flame, if you have too much acid you will have some powder left on your wick when you are done. So take your pick. Also, I've never found it hurt to switch back and forth between fuels. Finally, mixing the denatured w/ colmen or kero will only drown the green flame out in yellow and ruin the effect. Hope that helps. trip11.at.hotmail.dot.com

SupaflyBRONZE Member
TNT
173 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA


Posted:
Haven't tried it w/Kevlar yet. Get decent sized flames with towel wicks, little smaller than when using Coleman's white spirits. Spoke with a fella that used Kevlar and he said that the flame is bigger but it ruins the wicks quicker. I figured this would be due to fewer bonding sites for ions. I guess it's a trade off. I think u r right about the H-bonding affinity of cellulose wicks though. It would increase the number of hydroxide binding sites. How about soaking steel wool in methanol laced with boric acid? You might get green sparkly poi with a large flame. I'll have to try that as well as break down and get some kevlar myself. I think you will get a smaller flame no matter what material that you use due to the highly volatile properties of ethanol and methanol. They are much "lighter" than kero or parafin and evaporate quickly when ignited.

Fear the evil monkey!


Twirl'N'BurnBooojakasha
121 posts
Location: Brisbane QLD Australia


Posted:
Where do you get Boaric Acid or Borax from ?

Simply an excuse to play with fire.


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Boric Acid is roach poison if you want to buy it cheap, disinfectant if you want to pay more... I dunno what that translates to in your neighborhood but most large grocery stores in my hood carry it...

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


phuzzzmember
160 posts
Location: saltspring island, bc , kanada


Posted:
what about other colors than green?

NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Do a search or look in the FAQ.It's all been said before...(Moderators will be recieving an itemized bill on Jan 1 with summation of charges for my 2001 "moderators owe me a nickel" charges. Please make check out to "NYC: Jamaca vacation fund." Prompt payment is appreciated.)

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


CantusSILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,965 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom


Posted:
I owe you a chicken.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean


Tedwardmember
30 posts
Location: LA,CA, USA, SOL3, Milky Way, Andromeda Cluster


Posted:
Standard pyrotechnics don't work for what we do. However, you can adjust things to get colored flames with white gas. Try making a 3:1 mix of white gas and freshly squeezed orange juice. You'll get a blue/red flame.I'm still working on other products. Remember, this is alchemy, not chemistry.

JeStErSILVER Member
enthusiast
214 posts
Location: Melbourne Australia


Posted:
While your at it could a please have a small philosifers stone
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Trying to play the Akashic records,
but my turntables not compatible.


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,688 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
what's wrong with orange flames?Can I have a chicken Cantus?Or indeed a normal Cantus....

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


CantusSILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,965 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom


Posted:
What would you want a Cantus for? I can't imagine anyone wanting one

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean


phuzzzmember
160 posts
Location: saltspring island, bc , kanada


Posted:
you know how when you fold an orange peeel so it's the orange side out stuff spays out of it that makes your eyes sting? try holding a lighter up to the spray. especially when it's dark!

SparkfireFire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
Boric Acid in Methylated Spirits works fine. You have to keep the spin speed down a little as it is weaker than Sol T etc.. try using shorter staffs or poi for it.https://www.geocities.com/firepoi/index_css.html advises Pottasium Chlorate is a possibility for purple flames. Dont waste your money, i have and it dsoesn't work. Have tried it with Meth and Sol T, No luck. Any advice on other fuel bases to try it with now that i have 25kg of it?Would be much interested in the results of the Pottasium Permagate.

SupaflyBRONZE Member
TNT
173 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA


Posted:
Potassium Permangenate works for purple but even better is Potassium Nitrate (which is a bit harder to get a hold of). It produces a much brighter purple.

Fear the evil monkey!


phuzzzmember
160 posts
Location: saltspring island, bc , kanada


Posted:
where do you get potasum nitrate?

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