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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:hello... playing with fire for a bunch of hours last night and sitting too near a dip jar I believe I inhaled too much low odour kerosene fumes. Thus I feel poisoned this morning... dry mouth, nausea....In fact I feel like I went tripping last night and had a few beers on top of it *blergh!*. (I was and am completely sober.) But then I was noticing strange patterns, hot and cold flushes, irregular heart beat - all the stuff that goes with poisoning I suppose.I know it will chug through my system within 24 hours. I'm just angry they don't have adequate warning labels on the actual fuel. I mean I was sitting within about 5, 6 metres of it when I wasn't twirling and this seems to be enough to have poisoned me. Unlucky yes? It was in a well ventilated area..with the wind and the cold... I also remain mystified with the low white cloud that is created over the kerosene when hot chains or sticks are dipped - what the hell is that stuff and why does it hang around for a few minutes... Anyways.. just thought I'd act as a warning label (perhaps for sensitive people) - because money hungry companies don't have the balls to. ------------------The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Okay...so I am thinking that maybe your Kero is different from ours since it's what we use and I have never had that happen from just being near it...thankfully, and I am usually located next to the bucket so that I can "protect" it. In fact the only time I got those symptoms is when I accidentally swallowed a bit from fire breathing, and what you described was the minor poisoning I went through, they are also the same symptoms from when I have had a bad case of food poisoning. The white cloud is a "steam". It lingers longer because it is heavier than water steam, which tends to float away. I don't think inhaling it is prolly healthy but if you spin with kero then you breathe the smoke and fumes from it anyway. Were there any conditions that differ from how you normally spin? Did you not eat or have anything in your system. I know I tend to not feel the light headed effects of the fuel from fire breathing or the smoke from spinning if I eat about a half hour to hour before I spin.Oh, btw, most fuel companies make the fuels to go in something, not to be burnt and inhaled fundamentally. I am sure the warnings on these things are completely proper for what they are meant for, it is we who are in essence "bastardizing" the intended use of the fuels.
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Anyway, it is good to know and I hope you feel better soon.
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Oh!Oh!Oh!....I am editing because I had a thought. Do you happen to have a cut, or cut yourself and get fuel in it? That will also make you feel very ill.My best to you....------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 09 June 2001).]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:As a chem teacher I'm dealing with organic solvents all the time. We've got pages of warnings labels on them, quite the opposite of your experience. Heck we've got a big warning notice on the container of SAND which reads "warning eye irritant!"All organic solvents (kero, petrol, acetone, etc...) are volatile and can result in inhalation problems. Be careful, if you're feeling sick from them you probably are overworking/damaging your kidneys and such. I'd be sensitive about working with it in the future as organic solvents can result in long term toxicity problems.I know we tend to be the boy who cried wolf here with "things that are bad for you" but do listen to your body...And for the love of God kids, don't put sand directly into your eyes. It may irritate them.
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[This message has been edited by mrmo_nyc (edited 09 June 2001).]


PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


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Posted:Splat, Remember that exposure to fuels on a regular basis will make you *more* sensitive not less. So, if you've been spinning a lot lately, I wouldn't doubt it. I've noticed that I'm particularly sensitive to fuel now. Of course, I do a lot of fire eating and transfer work. But I can really feel it if I stand over the fuel while I dipping. I always stand back so I don't inhale the evaporations. I also recommend collapsing the fuel dump once you've soaked. Reduces evaporation and risk of the fuel dump catching alight. Best of luck,Diana

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pj


member
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Total posts: 277
Posted:Things are way different here in the US -- Everything has warning labels out the wazoo. Heck, have you seen our cigaratte packages recently? I'm not sure if this is just our litigious culture or what.Another thing to remember is that combustion is a very complex process. When fuel is burned correctly (at the proper temperature and with the proper fuel/air mixture) the burn is nearly complete with very few chemical byproducts other than water vapor. However, burning kero on poi wicks is far, far from optimal, and you can expect quite a number of nasty chemicals to be lingering in the air, especially if you have a lot of people spinning in close proximity.Personally, I've always attributed the headaches and what-not I've experienced after spinning to be caused by alcohol and any other substances I may have injested, and I'm terrible about drinking enough water when I am dancing or fire spinning...-p.

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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Interesting comment, Diana, about how more exposure to fuel makes you more sensitive. The woman I know in town who twirls fire the most is sometimes reduced to coughing fits by the end of a set. Maybe that's it.Unlike Diana, I don't break down my fueling station when I'm not actually soaking my wicks. But I always keep my fueling tub sealed shut except when I'm actually putting wicks in or removing them. I think one or the other is just the right thing to do, for any number of reasons.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:wow you guys are great... I eat like a horse normally anyway (wish I knew where it all went though) - but I guess I'll start lugging snacks along with my fuel and fire toys from now on... It was also a bizarre empty feeling in my stomach - even if when I'd eaten a huge meal like 2 hours before hand. The conditions weren't any different to what I'm used to - very well ventilated actually.. I did indeed feel 'poisoned' - but in fact I did happen to get showered a little with kerosene as my mate shook his toys off. (nothing abnormal!)I have two new cute baby birds that leave little scratches on my stupidly sensitive skin and in fact it makes sooo much sense now! I believe it seeped into my tiny cuts... I haven't been twirling heaps more than usual lately - I've been too busy :/I'm going to have my head as FAR away as possible from now on from the fuel can - and bandaid myself silly for a little while. Thanks so much guys for your input - it took about 26 hours or so but its gone from my system - hopefully never to return again thanks to awesome insights
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------------------The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Finn


member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 341
Posted:Given Splat's experience...How safe is it to firedance while pregnant?I imagine that if it's possible to be poisoned by inhaling kero fumes, that firedancing while pregnant isn't a good idea.I guess if you're trying to conceive it wouldn't be a good idea to be exposed to these toxic chemicals on a regular basis either.Does anyone have any experience with this or know of anyone being in this situation. If so, how did you/they handle it?Cheers,Finn
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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:I'd absolutely stay away from organic solvents while pregnant. They are definately toxic. I'll see if I can do some research on that...

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:heylo.... I tried a mix of citronella and hydrocarbons (2% and 98% respectively)... and I received almost the exact effect I got from using 100% hydrocarbons...(surprise surprise *sarcasm*
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)Actually.. now that you mentioned that Finn, surely firedancing near a pregnant woman wouldn't be all that good for her?? Depends on surrounds and ventilation and all - but after all passive smoking is worse for you than smoking a filtered cigarette. (Filters for poi?!?! j/k) I'm still working on a blend of natural stuff - I want to steer completely clear of toxins. (Guess I should move away from cities.)I am the kind of person who slams herself into things so I usually have the odd cut or scratch - the idea of covering these up with non flammable dressings everytime I want to play with fire is just unfeasible (does that word exist?) I also think its got something to do with the fumes - I am sick of lightheaded dizzy chemicalness (usually setting in after the rush of the flames have gone and I'm sitting on a couch exhausted). And I believe hydrocarbons do pretty much the same thing to everyones bodies - its just whether or not you notice it or not.They are so new after all - I *know* islanders and fire twirlers centuries ago would never have touched the stuff. Thanks for the informed input guys
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------------------The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Finn


member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 341
Posted:mrmo,I'd really appreciate it.Thanks,Finn
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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:I got the worst case of firespinning hangover from coleman fuel mixed with lamp oil...almost immediate headache, sorta dizzy, fuzzy mouth, irritated eyes lasted all night til next day...never used coleman fuel before and havnt had problems with lamp oil so im thinkin it is the culprit...so i'm not a fan though i appreciate its usefulness.Pere

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pj


member
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Total posts: 277
Posted:Pere: I wouldn't doubt that it was the white gas that caused the problems. White gas is *far* more volitile than kerosene, and the fumes from white gas really are quite toxic.White gas will also enter your body through you skin more easily than kero, so if you spill any on yourself you should wash it off immediately with soap and water.I really don't think you need to worry about the vapors from an open bottle of kero, so long as you aren't huddling over your dip pot for an extended period of time. But like I said eariler, kero does burn very dirty, and you really don't want to hang out in a cloud of kero smoke.-p.

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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:Bad news moms-to-be... I talked with Chemists much smarter than I and asked what chemicals should be avoided when pregnant (without even going into the specifics of why) and the first words out of their mouths were "organic solvents." Apparently, when one is pregnant the liver is overworked as it is and organic solvnets will completely overload your system and result in serious poisoning much quicker.In fact my partner chemist told me that she was able to collect unemployment during her pregnancy because she was legally not able to work in the chemistry lab environment and could not be reassigned.Just to get our vocabulary straight... ANY liquid that you would be burning would be an organic solvent of some sort. The whole "natural" or "chemical-free" or whatever is simply not true. If it burns, it's an organic solvent. Whether you got it from a dead whale you found on your block or the Exxon station.All flamable liquids are hydrocarbons. All hydrocarbons, "natural" or not, are toxic.

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So I performed on saturday night and took the time to see if I could notice any side effects from it. Obviously the funky feel of the lamp oil from breathing was present and it was about the only real thing I felt immediately after the show, other than that euphoric rush I get from a good spin.However, I did notice about an hour later that cotton mouth settled in for the night and no matter what I drank it did not go away. The next day I was fine though and went hiking. But that is for now, ten years down the road though I hope to be saying the same thing!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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hafsha1


member
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.

Total posts: 35
Posted:pj, you're from Baltimore?! (Well, obviously) Anyway, I am too. Are you a student and how long have you been spinning?-Hessam

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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:I just had a laughable conversation with my industrial chemical supplier... It went something like this...Me: Hey, I was wondering if I could get any information on which of your chemicals would be particularly harmful to pregnant women?Them: Er... hold on, let me get my supervisor...Supervisor: Sir, we do not recommend that ANY of our chemicals be used around pregnant women.Me: Well I notice that you sell molasses and olive oil and clearly they're ok right?Supervisor: Sir, we do not recommend using ANY of our chemicals around pregnant women.Me: Even molasses?!Supervisor: Sir, we do not recommend using ANY of our chemicals around pregnant women.Me: Is there anyone there who can give me more specific information?Supervisor: We recommend contacting your doctor.So hey, I tried... So far I've learned not to put sand in my eyes an pregnant women should not eat molasses or olive oil... come to think of it they also sell pure water, you may want to avoid that as well.But honestly, I'd keep the fetuses away from the flammables as discussed in my earlier post.

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:LOL mr.mo_nyc. That was funny, though you can't blame a person for covering his ass, after all it is a rather odd question!That and I noticed you have no email but I have some questions for you, as well as I will be visiting NYC in two weekends.Anyway, if you are interested in my questions please email me at pelesfyr@hotmail.comAnd btw, the doctors will say to stay away from fuels such as this for any unintended purposes, pregnant or not!
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Personally though Finn I don't think I would spin alot of fire during pregnancy, maybe once or twice a month and in later months I'd watch out for all the serious torso twisting moves. I would cut out all fire eating/brething and trailing though. I worked at a bar with loud music and tonnes of smoke when I was pregnant with Noah, didn't have prenatal care and he is fine. I think alot of the cautions are over rated. I think it is just a thing of common sense and not to overdo anything. I will say though late in the pregnancy I didn't feel like doing much of anything, and I had an easy time I was told, let alone spinning/performing!Does this mean you have some news for us Finn?
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 12 June 2001).]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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kmactane


member
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 97
Posted:Now I'm trying to imagine finding a dead whale on my block -- which is pretty funny, since my street is only about 30-35 meters long (maybe 100 feet), and one lane wide. I don't think you could fit a dead whale in here! (Although a live one would probably be even worse -- I don't want to contemplate all the thrashing...)

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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:but surely you could use something that wasn't a hydrocarbon mixed with like 2% of a hydrocarbon and it would still spark up? And be more healthy?? Hydrocarbons are NEW. I KNOW they had burning torches poi and sticks far before stupid super-poisonous synthetic fuels were invented. Plus, pure olive oil (if used once only) is okay for anyone. My italian mother eats the stuff pretty much every day. And all her rellies. (Its a bit expensive for me at the moment
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) ..polyunsaturated fats are good if used in small amounts (sensibly) for lifetimes. Ever been to Italy?
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[This message has been edited by splat (edited 12 June 2001).]


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:Splat, I'm confused...A hydrocarbon is any molecule with only hydrogen and carbon. They are not new. They were the first complex molecules on earth predating all life on earth by billions of years [pending religious beliefs
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].Any liquid that has ever burned on this planet has been a hydrocarbon, or one with some oxygens thrown in. Whatever our ancestors put on their torches was most certainly a hydrocarbon. In fact, the ONLY things than can combust are "organic" compounds which means anything that contains carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.There's no way around it. If you like fire, you're burning organic compounds... If you want it in liquid form, you're burning organic solvents...And yes, I've been to Italy... What Italian from Brooklyn hasn't been to the motherland? So, I've had my share of "Aio e oio" [which by the way... is another organic compound
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]


PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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ThomasRhymer


member
Location: Austin, TX USA

Total posts: 3
Posted:I just checked out this msg board for the 1st time in a long time, so I just caught up on things. I do fire inspections for a living, and thought y'all might be interested in this: one of things I deal with in my work is Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS). They have tons of info on a variety of chemicals, including flash points (how hot it has to get to ignite) and health hazard info.Below are two good links (but there are also other good ones).siri.uvm.edu/msds/www.msdssearch.comPeace,Thomas

'Do or do not. There is no try.' - Yoda

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firestarter


member
Location: San Francisco, CA USA

Total posts: 2
Posted:Splat. I completely understand where you are coming from. If you have a chance, read this ::http://www.distantvoices.net/sierra/entries/800/81500.htmI wrote here about the first night that I truly discovered that I could not do poi all night long as I would like to. I get REALLY high off the fumes (whether I use kero or white gas or parrafin/lamp oil or charcol lighter fluid). Let's face it :: almost every activity involves some degree of risk and quite frankly 'playing' with fuel as we do cannot be good for human beings. Inhaling gas fumes is simply not good for us. So, for sensitive people like ourselves, it is hard to balance our love for dancing with fire with feeling sick from the nasty fumes. I personally moderate myself and instead of spinning all night like i would like to, i only spin 4 or 5 times and space it out more throughout the evening, ya know?As far as being too close to the kero and inhaling it, I ALWAYS close up my fuel container after I dip. This helps the situation in several ways 1) the fumes wont be going into the air as much 2) people are less likely to accidentally knock it over and spill fuel all over the place.peace out and be safe =)sierra~------------------http://geocities.com/seeds_of_fire

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:I'd agree with Thomas, get yourself a copy of the msds for any chemical you are working with. They not only tell you flash point info, but also storage, transport and dispoal info. In addition you can generally also find info on effects on the body, first aid and personal protective equipment recommended.My only caveat, is to check the authority issuing the msds, sometimes its from the company, and sometimes from an intermediary.Bottoms up
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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:*Everything*?? What about cooking oil ..does that contain hydrogen and carbon?? What about alcohols? I spoke to a chemist today who said they were a different composition. And explained about the different sensitivities of certain people to certain things. My ancestors did not play with low odour kerosene though was my point. This was manufactured in the past century, along with a bunch of other toxic fuels. Some burn cleaner than others too.I am well aware that if you had a few burns with sambuca and inhaled the fumes you'd get veeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrry wasted pretty quick
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Thanks for the info though - I guess I wasn't exactly sure what I was trying to say eh? ------------------The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King[This message has been edited by splat (edited 12 June 2001).][This message has been edited by splat (edited 13 June 2001).]


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Finn


member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 341
Posted:mr.mo,Thanks very much for taking the time to check up on the safety of firedancing while pregnant for me.
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Definately something to consider.Pele,I'd love to answer your question but I'm a bit afraid of the moderators on this board. Those two chicks are scary. They don't like us chatting or going off topic!mwahahahaha
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Finn
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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:Hey Splat,Anything with ONLY carbon and hydrogen is a hydrocarbon... This includes methane, ethane, propane, butane, octane, etc...If you have ONLY carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen you've got a HUGE family of "organic" compounds (this organic ONLY means that it is made of C, H and O, NOT that it is "natural" or "safe" or "organic" in the food definition- no free range kerosine- sorry). This includes ALL alcohols, oils, fats, sugars, and thousands of other, more complex, molecules. Our body needs many of these things to survive (glucose, starch, etc..) and others will poison us.I do see your point about there being different levels of toxicity but I'm not sure that your going to find anything flammable that isn't particularly toxic. Simply because a chemical, by definition, must be somewhat unstable and volatile in order to burn... Which I guess was my point in the beginning.Well, my ether buzz is beginning to fade so I guess it's back to cleaning out the stock room for me...

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:And my point is, that because I have a reaction to one substance doesn't mean I will have the same reaction to another substance. I have a whole bunch of other allergies.... but that doesn't mean I have to stop eating all food cause its all a chemical. And I know some burn cleaner than others, and there's a chance I won't react as strongly with others, so I'll continue my epic quest.

The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:aaaaaaahahhhhhhhhh days of organic chemistry!they made me take it in the summer which was a killer. the first one to draw the diagram of colman fuel wins!and i just drew this great ASCII carbon ring and it takes out the spaces so it doesnt work. darnit.Pere [This message has been edited by Peregrine (edited 13 June 2001).]

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NYC_not_PK


NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy

Total posts: 203
Posted:That's definately true splat... Some people are particularly sensitive to certain things. My mom is currently battling severe chemical sensitivities. It's nasty and we don't know much about it scientifically. She worked in a lab for many years which is freaky to me because it's impossible to tell what gave it to her. I have to say this discussion has gotten me thinking a bit more as well. I may be more likely to take the time to put on some gloves before mixing stuff for my kiddies. Be safe y'all. And feel free to send any other Science questions my way. I'm not that smart but I have REALLY smart friends
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PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Mr Potato Head


member
Location: syd

Total posts: 8
Posted:Hey all,
im new to all this and have just bought my first fire toys (had them for bout a week so far). Oe of my biggest concerns is the smoke inhalation and its toxicity, this may sound stupid but are there any forms of mask that would reduce the risk?? i was thinking simple... a wet handkerchef or bandana wrapped around mouth and nose. Does anyone know if this would do anything?


I was so poor growing up ... if I wasn't a boy ...I'd have nothing to play with. --Rodney Dangerfield Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny. --Jack Handey Deep Thoughts

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