Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > 4 Beat TTN [thread the needle]

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:right too much happening in other threads right now so a new thread for this one.

4 Beat TTN: [reverse]

right as a start with the regular TTN if you watch how you do it, it looks like your poi are going to wrap on your opposite arm so you push them through.
Right as you get to this stage, push through when your hand has gone under and then doubled back over the other hand, then repeat with the other hand.

4 beat TTN video. 773kb

3 beat can be done with either left or right hand, the combination makes the 4 beat.

[ 29. January 2003, 10:10: Message edited by: PK [Dust-Punk] ]


PK.

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As love unveils the beauty of all things."

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Jaeden
member
Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:Now thread the needle with the other hand. I'll try to explain.

When you do a split time butterfly, your hands are side by side, palm to palm (as opposed to one above the other). Now, when you do a TTN you must bring one hand overtop of the other. At this point they are back to back. Let's say your left hand is over top of your right. When you finish the TTN, your hands will be back side by side. Here is the other 2 beats. This time, instead of bringing your left over your right, thread your right hand overtop of your left. Do one side and then the other and you will be able to count 6 beats for a full rotation.

[ 31. March 2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Jaeden ]


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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:So basically you're talking about the symmetric split-time TTN rather than just the standard split-time TTN which is always one handing moving around the other. If so then heh, learning that now... bit of a tricky one, glad I can do straight-arm stuff already as it's quite similar

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I can't do half of what you all are talking about but do have a theory question...

Why are we calling split time weaves by the number of beats to do a half a rotation and split time TTN the number of beats to do a full rotation?

Shouldn't a "regular" TTN really be a 1 beat? Or else we should call a "regular" weave be a 6 beat?

I think I've got a point here... I blame PK, Dom and the rest of the poi gods for incorrectly naming the 4 beat TTN. It is really two beats on each side and by weave logic, a 2 beat move.

{Awaits convincing counter argument.}


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JinX
mushroom collector
Location: JHB, South Africa
Member Since: 24th Feb 2003
Total posts: 208
Posted:I agree with NYC, i think the poi gods must be crazy.

WAIT!? they are crazy or they wouldnt be trying these really screwed up moves


JinX : If it doesnt kill you it makes you stronger

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It will however make cats dizzy and cats throw up twice their bodyweight when dizzy.

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Tempest
addict
Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:ok this is getting a bt confusing with the multiple threads but here goes.

Jaeden- cheers for your explanation, i thik something is being missunderstood cos the variables here are so subtle.

I call a butterfly weave that because it is exactly like a weave except that one poi is travelling the opposite direction.

I call a anything else turning thread the needle or even ttn weave maybe?

I have the 6 beats beats but in my (all be it slighly jumbled) logic that would be turning a ttn.

NYC, these different beat counts you speak of are not being counted that way when i count.

I am counting the total numbver of beats till i get back to any given point. eg, how many times a poi hits down - if both hands do 3 beats on each side then that is 6 beats in my book just like a 5 beat normal weave has 2 beats on one side and 3 on the other making 5 beats.

I think the confusion comes form the fact that witha normal weave if you put in extra beats the hand that leads changes but with butterfly/ttn wevey thangs, either hand can lead from under or over the other wrist at any given point.


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Jaeden
member
Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:bah@names. All they are is a set of linguistic tools that help us relate tho motion of our poi to eachother without actually having to show them. It dosen't realy matter what you call it as long as your audiance know of what you speak.

As to why the butterfly is called 2-beat, I think it's a couple of reasons.
1. higher beat count is cool
2. it is easier to describe when broken down, and
3. the counting method used to name a buterfly 2-beats is the same as used to name the weave 3-beat.

Take your poi (spinning in the same direction) and let them make one circle on either sied. You now have the figure-8 or 2 beat weave. Take your poi (spinning in opposite directions) and let them make one cirle on either side. You now have a figure-8 (2 beat weave) only the poi are traveling in opposite directions, a buterfly. Thus a 2-beat buterfly. The difference is that you can do the buterfly on one side indefinitely, I don't see that that should affect the naming scheme.

My thoughts at least...


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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:shit! im gonna go back and play with my doubles, this is bloody hard work on my brain.

If only my room had space for more than a weave with short poi:(

just had another experiment and i have a same time 'thing' for want of a better word has 4 beats on each side with each poi - an 8 beat monster?

Also, i have a strange split time move that i just presumed was a 3 beat split time butterfly weave but both hands do 2 beats on the left and one on the right plus my hands swap low to high like a weave.

help please my head is caving in

I think that i should stop naming moves maybe but thats where my understanding of all things technical come from.


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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:ok jaeden, this doing the butterfly indefinately on one side thing is where a move would not be a butterfly or ttn weave (for me at least) anymore because it repeats a cycle or something instead of travelling through varoius manouveres that are all different to get back to the start point.

<takes a breath and scratches head>

just as if you were turning a ttn and you did 8 beats of a thread the needle on one side and 2 on the other - this would not be a 10 beat butterfly weave or ttn weave. (again for me at least)

I think i may be starting to understand myself
maybe?


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:OK.. I knew I was wrong, I just needed it articulated as to why. I think the split time/in time variants were throwing my beats.

So defining beats as "the number of revolutions that each poi must make before repeating" everything holds true.

I somehow confused it with an "each side" concept which is untrue in some cases.

Thank you Oh Holy Ones.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:Sorry NYC,

back to the should the normal ttn be a 1 beat move?

I dont think so because you need both beats (close and further away) to make it a complete move.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Whoa wait...

I understand now how the "normal" TTN is a 2 beat move.... but a butterfly is, most definitely a 1 beat move.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:yup yup yes yeppedy yup yes!

so what was the question again?

sorry


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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:oh i think i see,

so a split time butterfly could be misconstrued as 2 beats especially when it's moves around in a weavey manner, cos if you counted the down beats it would be twice as many.

And if you count the left or right beats it would be just like a butterfly but on its side - 1 beat

I think that strange animal gravity has some part in this mix up



Plus it seems tha most people tend to do a left and right movement with the split time butterfly stuff, is this true? I do an up down movement with the hands just like if i was doing a normal butterfly.


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Jaeden
member
Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:um, I think I see where you're coming from...

Anyways, I think I was trying to say that when counting the number of beats for a weave, you count how many times each poi revolves on one side. It just happens that you can not do a weave on one side forever where as you can with the buterfly.


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Jaeden
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Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:I don't see how normal/split time would make a difference. The poi would complete the same number of rotations regardless of timing.

I also do the split-time bf with my hands moving up and down.


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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:yes,

totally the same number of revs.

But twice as many down beats in a split time butterfly as oppossed to a same time if you count them that way.


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Jaeden
member
Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:How's that? Each poi travels down once per revolution. Same time just has them do it in sync.

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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:Hold on Jaeden, i just agreed with you about the beats thing, yes it has the same number of revolutions.

I said 'if'

I was attempting to explain about how the counting can get doubled up with spli time butterfly moves as NYC posted at the end of the previous page.

Same time butterflys have both poi hitting down at the same time so they are counted together but IF you count each down beat in a split time butterfly - it is possible to counts two seperate down motions and therefore can be misconstrued as two beats.

Not that i do count it like that. Clear?


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Jaeden
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Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:ok ok ok, now I get it

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I get it too! Sorry for the tangent but it's not really a tangent because this is the closest topic to it! It was just a brain bubble that needed to be popped because I hadn't thought of beats since I started spinning...

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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