Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Basic Staff Moves Descriptions (all staffers input required)
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Ok Ok It's been a while now since the thread about a dedicated staff forum was begun, and there seems to be heaps of support for it, but there are several relevant issues brought up by the moderators.I suggest, instead of pleading with them, that we overcome the issues they mentioned first. IE put our money where our mouths are.As far as I know, they all contribute their time for free, and we should be grateful to them for the work they already do (inspirational music played in the background).Anyway, by far the biggest problem I have come across in all the previous staff threads has been lack of detailed descriptions and terms for moves, as well as the huge plethora of moves and variations available. I'm certain that this was an issue with poi a while ago as well, and we need to make a concerted effort, as a group, to start defining some of the basic moves so we have a common language.Bec & Elke's book is probably a good start, and I would like to us to all start making up simple, easy to remember descriptive names, starting with the video clips on this site. This way we can see exactly what is haening and there will be no misunderstandings at the begginning. We can move on to other moves later, but for now I would like us just to stick to the SINGLE STAFF VIDS OF XAEDA.If we can start talking about moves in the same way as the poi'ers, then we'll have won half of the battle, and will start learning more from this site as well... *** I suggest *** *** "Static Vertical 360" *** *** to describe the first move of Xaeda's (ie spinning in front in a circle)1. Static, because the arms and wrists stay in the same position relative to each other, only the hands are turning. This will be good in the future for verbally seperating moves where the arms/wrists change positions. Also, this does not matter how or where your fingers are or what they are doing, as we all seem to do finger moves differently, it wil be impossible to describe these fully but it doesnt matter, as long as the staff, arms and wrists are doing the same thing, it will all make sense.2. 360 as a term for a full rotation in the same airspace, with trails it would look like a plate or disk with no other movement apparent.3. Vertical, because the plate/disk mentioned above would be vertical (ie, you look from below or above, and it will only be a line)If we think about the names and how they affect future descriptions, rather than just choosing a cool sounding name, I'm certain we'll progress much faster.How about a corny catchprase too, like "Go and get STAFFed!!!" (dont choose this one, im sure you guys can do better...Please put in a suggestion for the second move, but put your reasons why you chose it in full, as above. Try not to disgree with the terms used, as long as the descriptions make sense, we should adopt it, to stop arguements...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 11 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 11 September 2001).]
Ok Ok It's been a while now since the thread about a dedicated staff forum was begun, and there seems to be heaps of support for it, but there are several relevant issues brought up by the moderators.I suggest, instead of pleading with them, that we overcome the issues they mentioned first. IE put our money where our mouths are.As far as I know, they all contribute their time for free, and we should be grateful to them for the work they already do (inspirational music played in the background).Anyway, by far the biggest problem I have come across in all the previous staff threads has been lack of detailed descriptions and terms for moves, as well as the huge plethora of moves and variations available. I'm certain that this was an issue with poi a while ago as well, and we need to make a concerted effort, as a group, to start defining some of the basic moves so we have a common language.Bec & Elke's book is probably a good start, and I would like to us to all start making up simple, easy to remember descriptive names, starting with the video clips on this site. This way we can see exactly what is haening and there will be no misunderstandings at the begginning. We can move on to other moves later, but for now I would like us just to stick to the SINGLE STAFF VIDS OF XAEDA.If we can start talking about moves in the same way as the poi'ers, then we'll have won half of the battle, and will start learning more from this site as well... *** I suggest *** *** "Static Vertical 360" *** *** to describe the first move of Xaeda's (ie spinning in front in a circle)1. Static, because the arms and wrists stay in the same position relative to each other, only the hands are turning. This will be good in the future for verbally seperating moves where the arms/wrists change positions. Also, this does not matter how or where your fingers are or what they are doing, as we all seem to do finger moves differently, it wil be impossible to describe these fully but it doesnt matter, as long as the staff, arms and wrists are doing the same thing, it will all make sense.2. 360 as a term for a full rotation in the same airspace, with trails it would look like a plate or disk with no other movement apparent.3. Vertical, because the plate/disk mentioned above would be vertical (ie, you look from below or above, and it will only be a line)If we think about the names and how they affect future descriptions, rather than just choosing a cool sounding name, I'm certain we'll progress much faster.How about a corny catchprase too, like "Go and get STAFFed!!!" (dont choose this one, im sure you guys can do better...Please put in a suggestion for the second move, but put your reasons why you chose it in full, as above. Try not to disgree with the terms used, as long as the descriptions make sense, we should adopt it, to stop arguements...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 11 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 11 September 2001).]
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BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Thanks Josh, your vote is recorded. They are meant to be email votes, but in retrospect, if you have a post a bout something else and want to vote as well that's fine. I just don't want 100 vote-only posts to clog up this thread...Also, Josh, I'm trying (trying) to have three seperate areas of description. Which is why I'm not expecting this to happen soo and want to get the bulding blocks right before the rest of the work begins.The three areas are 1. Staff movements. This is going well now. Ie rotors (vertical full spins). These simply explain what the staff is doing as if it were disembodied, and floating around on it's own.2. Hand grips, finger movements bodyrolls etc. This area is much more technical, and likely to be differ hugely amongst indididual staffers. It's usuallly the thing we can't explain when asked as we don;t think about it, and also if we do, very hard to articulate. My only serious attempt thus far is with the PinkySpin/Thumbspin terms and this only describes where a finger movement begins and ends, the inbetween actions are deliberately avoided to allow for each indidual's style.3. The easiest of the lot, the body moves in relation to itself. 360 means a pirouette, 90 LEFT TWIST (thank you Jedimstr) means to turn the waist so you are facing to your left.I think these three areas should cover most moves, and would like the order of importance to remain 1-2-3. PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS IS SPECIFICALLY FOR TEXT-BASE COMMUNICATION. There are probably much better ways of doing this both verbally and when others are physically present. But this BB is sometimes the only medium for some people and it is for the BB that I am putting these terms together.Santana2 - Pleased to see you understand now. And yes, there is likely hundreds of surfers out there who are simlarly confused. So, hopefully our descriptions are getting better (as to why you now understand)which means we are progressing...I agree that forwards and backwards makes a lot of sense for POI, however there is a spin in poi with is not regulated so much by the constantly changing actions of the wrist, which is where the grip on the staff is important and perhaps less important with some poi moves. (i may be treading on thin ice here, if so sorry to all the poi'ers who disagree).And yes, FOOTSTALL is the perfect term for catching a staff of your foot horizontally. It's exactly the same word in juggling to do the same move (but much easier in juggling). FOOTBALANCE we can use a vertical stall, and hopefully there aren't too many people who will attempt this with fire
However, the second stall described (Xaeda doing a helicopter in an open palm) I would prefer to call a PALMSPIN. It suggests that movement is still involved,the body part used to spin on and is perhaps one of the few terms available already in common use. As an example of building this language, we would have to call a helicopter on the top of the head a HEADSTALL, which is hard to understand for outsiders, whereas you tell people in an audience you are going to do a HEADSPIN (as opposed to PALMSPIN) and they will all know what you are going to attempt.Sprite/Josh - I like the plane idea, but feel that may be further in the future, until we get the main three areas sorted (is this ok?)...Pele, thank you, I've already looked at that thread, but unfortunately it has very few replies on it, and not many are useful at the moment (IMHO) 
Jedimstr - DONE! great stuff, I'd like once again to keep the terminology in line with the area, as in keeping degrees for the torso twists. As most of these will be about 90 degrees or less, they will easily fit in with the existing terms. (anyone who can do a 270 torso twist should be working for Circ de Soleil) (i know i know, i spelt it wrong!!!)Malcolm/Pele can I start another thread, without replies on it, where I can start storing the decisions made on this one?If I could keep editing it, instead of making extra posts, it should be easier ont he resources here...Cheers guys...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz
Thanks Josh, your vote is recorded. They are meant to be email votes, but in retrospect, if you have a post a bout something else and want to vote as well that's fine. I just don't want 100 vote-only posts to clog up this thread...Also, Josh, I'm trying (trying) to have three seperate areas of description. Which is why I'm not expecting this to happen soo and want to get the bulding blocks right before the rest of the work begins.The three areas are 1. Staff movements. This is going well now. Ie rotors (vertical full spins). These simply explain what the staff is doing as if it were disembodied, and floating around on it's own.2. Hand grips, finger movements bodyrolls etc. This area is much more technical, and likely to be differ hugely amongst indididual staffers. It's usuallly the thing we can't explain when asked as we don;t think about it, and also if we do, very hard to articulate. My only serious attempt thus far is with the PinkySpin/Thumbspin terms and this only describes where a finger movement begins and ends, the inbetween actions are deliberately avoided to allow for each indidual's style.3. The easiest of the lot, the body moves in relation to itself. 360 means a pirouette, 90 LEFT TWIST (thank you Jedimstr) means to turn the waist so you are facing to your left.I think these three areas should cover most moves, and would like the order of importance to remain 1-2-3. PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS IS SPECIFICALLY FOR TEXT-BASE COMMUNICATION. There are probably much better ways of doing this both verbally and when others are physically present. But this BB is sometimes the only medium for some people and it is for the BB that I am putting these terms together.Santana2 - Pleased to see you understand now. And yes, there is likely hundreds of surfers out there who are simlarly confused. So, hopefully our descriptions are getting better (as to why you now understand)which means we are progressing...I agree that forwards and backwards makes a lot of sense for POI, however there is a spin in poi with is not regulated so much by the constantly changing actions of the wrist, which is where the grip on the staff is important and perhaps less important with some poi moves. (i may be treading on thin ice here, if so sorry to all the poi'ers who disagree).And yes, FOOTSTALL is the perfect term for catching a staff of your foot horizontally. It's exactly the same word in juggling to do the same move (but much easier in juggling). FOOTBALANCE we can use a vertical stall, and hopefully there aren't too many people who will attempt this with fire
However, the second stall described (Xaeda doing a helicopter in an open palm) I would prefer to call a PALMSPIN. It suggests that movement is still involved,the body part used to spin on and is perhaps one of the few terms available already in common use. As an example of building this language, we would have to call a helicopter on the top of the head a HEADSTALL, which is hard to understand for outsiders, whereas you tell people in an audience you are going to do a HEADSPIN (as opposed to PALMSPIN) and they will all know what you are going to attempt.Sprite/Josh - I like the plane idea, but feel that may be further in the future, until we get the main three areas sorted (is this ok?)...Pele, thank you, I've already looked at that thread, but unfortunately it has very few replies on it, and not many are useful at the moment (IMHO) Jedimstr - DONE! great stuff, I'd like once again to keep the terminology in line with the area, as in keeping degrees for the torso twists. As most of these will be about 90 degrees or less, they will easily fit in with the existing terms. (anyone who can do a 270 torso twist should be working for Circ de Soleil) (i know i know, i spelt it wrong!!!)Malcolm/Pele can I start another thread, without replies on it, where I can start storing the decisions made on this one?If I could keep editing it, instead of making extra posts, it should be easier ont he resources here...Cheers guys...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz HoP Posting Guidelines
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AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
just as a point of theory -I think if you adequately describe the movement of the body, description of the movement of the staff becomes superfluous. ie - if you move your body in exactly the way described, the staff will move in exactly the same way...there are a million and one ways to get a staff to turn in vertical rotors, but with adequate body movement / interaction description, the staff movement is implied.Anyhow - just thought I'd throw that one in there...description of the movement of the staff however might help ppl who arent getting the body movement stuff...Josh
just as a point of theory -I think if you adequately describe the movement of the body, description of the movement of the staff becomes superfluous. ie - if you move your body in exactly the way described, the staff will move in exactly the same way...there are a million and one ways to get a staff to turn in vertical rotors, but with adequate body movement / interaction description, the staff movement is implied.Anyhow - just thought I'd throw that one in there...description of the movement of the staff however might help ppl who arent getting the body movement stuff...Josh
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Josh. I thought exactly the same way until I started to teach people. Everything as always is IMHO... While I learnt some great new moves by the students doing things 'wrong', the most common problem for learning the move being taught, was they were focussing on their body, instead of the path of the staff. As most of them were not familiar with thinking about their wrists and motions it was very difficult and frustrating for the majority.By just telling them what the staff was supposed to do allowed them to make the staff move the way they want it to, and their bodies merely followed (I think the turn-off-you-brain technique has been extolled in many threads). Obviously, some moves such multiple spins which rely heavily on shoulder and wrist movements are more involved with the body, but I have found even these are much easier to explain if the person knows what path the staff should be taking from the outset and has this firmlyThe most obvious benefit to myself and students is that when they are doing it wrong (*which is sometimes a cool new move) they know instinctively that its incorrect, without having to ask me.Another advantage is that i often move the staff through the move from the outside while they hold it. By physically describing the pattern while they are fgripping the staff, their body follows the route correctly and what somtimes take 15 minutes of discussion can be achieved in under a minute.As almost every seems to do staff differently, the only way to get things right from the beginning for me is to have the pattern of the staff in the person's mind BEFORE they start moving.But, if we do it right, and have all three aspects of the move in distinct categories, whichever way people want to learn they can choose for themselves, and any preference I show is irrelevant.So, in retrospect, if we can focus on the three areas, preferably beginning with the staff itself, then we can let the readers choose which instruction or combinations they would like to learn from...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 17 September 2001).]
Josh. I thought exactly the same way until I started to teach people. Everything as always is IMHO...
While I learnt some great new moves by the students doing things 'wrong', the most common problem for learning the move being taught, was they were focussing on their body, instead of the path of the staff. As most of them were not familiar with thinking about their wrists and motions it was very difficult and frustrating for the majority.By just telling them what the staff was supposed to do allowed them to make the staff move the way they want it to, and their bodies merely followed (I think the turn-off-you-brain technique has been extolled in many threads). Obviously, some moves such multiple spins which rely heavily on shoulder and wrist movements are more involved with the body, but I have found even these are much easier to explain if the person knows what path the staff should be taking from the outset and has this firmlyThe most obvious benefit to myself and students is that when they are doing it wrong (*which is sometimes a cool new move) they know instinctively that its incorrect, without having to ask me.Another advantage is that i often move the staff through the move from the outside while they hold it. By physically describing the pattern while they are fgripping the staff, their body follows the route correctly and what somtimes take 15 minutes of discussion can be achieved in under a minute.As almost every seems to do staff differently, the only way to get things right from the beginning for me is to have the pattern of the staff in the person's mind BEFORE they start moving.But, if we do it right, and have all three aspects of the move in distinct categories, whichever way people want to learn they can choose for themselves, and any preference I show is irrelevant.So, in retrospect, if we can focus on the three areas, preferably beginning with the staff itself, then we can let the readers choose which instruction or combinations they would like to learn from...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 17 September 2001).] HoP Posting Guidelines
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AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
ahhh ok - I see your point(s).
Josh
ahhh ok - I see your point(s).
Josh BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Current terms so far... (thanks everyone for their input, keep it coming and please read carefully, there are some new ones in there)* HELICOPTER = A horizontal spin in the same space, usually above the head.* ROTOR = Any vertical spin that stays in one space. Same as HELICOPTER, but perpindicular to the ground.* PINKYSPIN = Finger spin that begins with the pinky, and then to the ring finger, index finger and so on. * THUMBSPIN = Same as PINKYSPIN, but starting form the thumb and then traveling along pointing finger, then index and so on.*** please note, PINKY/THUMBSPINS do not need to travel along all five fingers, but the end action where the staff wraps under or over the hand to begin the motion again is seen as the end, not the beginning**** FORWARDS = To lead a movement or spin with the thumb on the leading part of the staff. As in slicing a sword down in front of you.* BACKWARDS = Same as FORWARDS, but with the pinky on the leading party of the staff.***my apologies to anyone who sees these terms as reversed, we've had two votes for these directions and in the interest of time, need to push on to other moves**** 1/2SPIN = Where the staff has only spun 180, this is regardless of any other motions or actions.* FULLSPIN/DOUBLESPIN/TRIPLESPIN/ 1/4SPIN ETC= As above, 1 spin is a complete rotation and the rest as they apply.* POP = Simple throw into the air, horizontal without spin unless other wise stated.ie Overhead POP is to throw from in front to behind your back or vice versa.* STALL = I'd like some feedback on this, but would prefer a stall to be any move that stops the spin completely.* FOOTSTALL = Horizontal catch or movement with the staff stationary and horizontal on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat.* FOOTBALANCE = Balancing the staff on one end (preferably without fire) on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat* 180 = Half-rotation of body (usually using feet)* 360 = Full-rotation of body * 45,90,270 = Well, you get the idea, aye?* LEFT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your left* RIGHT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your right* LEFT-TWIST[45][20][180!] etc = Swiveling the appropriate number of degrees, also includes RIGHT-TWISTS. Anymove calling for 180 or more should put an "!" after it, coz it very hard to do!* CLOCKWISE = The spin of the staff in relation to the front of the staffer* ANTICLOCKWISE = Reverse of clockwise, or same direction but behind your back rather than in front.* TOOTHGRAB = Any STALL or move where the staff is held by the mouth/teeth/TONGUE!!! etc. People like myself who experiment with moves like this should prepare themselves for ridicule as it is a silly silly silly move().* TUCK = Like an underarm roll. To swing the staff under your armpit, either to catch it there or as part of another moveStill going...i'm writing up some more at home...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz
Current terms so far... (thanks everyone for their input, keep it coming and please read carefully, there are some new ones in there)* HELICOPTER = A horizontal spin in the same space, usually above the head.* ROTOR = Any vertical spin that stays in one space. Same as HELICOPTER, but perpindicular to the ground.* PINKYSPIN = Finger spin that begins with the pinky, and then to the ring finger, index finger and so on. * THUMBSPIN = Same as PINKYSPIN, but starting form the thumb and then traveling along pointing finger, then index and so on.*** please note, PINKY/THUMBSPINS do not need to travel along all five fingers, but the end action where the staff wraps under or over the hand to begin the motion again is seen as the end, not the beginning**** FORWARDS = To lead a movement or spin with the thumb on the leading part of the staff. As in slicing a sword down in front of you.* BACKWARDS = Same as FORWARDS, but with the pinky on the leading party of the staff.***my apologies to anyone who sees these terms as reversed, we've had two votes for these directions and in the interest of time, need to push on to other moves**** 1/2SPIN = Where the staff has only spun 180, this is regardless of any other motions or actions.* FULLSPIN/DOUBLESPIN/TRIPLESPIN/ 1/4SPIN ETC= As above, 1 spin is a complete rotation and the rest as they apply.* POP = Simple throw into the air, horizontal without spin unless other wise stated.ie Overhead POP is to throw from in front to behind your back or vice versa.* STALL = I'd like some feedback on this, but would prefer a stall to be any move that stops the spin completely.* FOOTSTALL = Horizontal catch or movement with the staff stationary and horizontal on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat.* FOOTBALANCE = Balancing the staff on one end (preferably without fire) on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat* 180 = Half-rotation of body (usually using feet)* 360 = Full-rotation of body * 45,90,270 = Well, you get the idea, aye?* LEFT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your left* RIGHT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your right* LEFT-TWIST[45][20][180!] etc = Swiveling the appropriate number of degrees, also includes RIGHT-TWISTS. Anymove calling for 180 or more should put an "!" after it, coz it very hard to do!* CLOCKWISE = The spin of the staff in relation to the front of the staffer* ANTICLOCKWISE = Reverse of clockwise, or same direction but behind your back rather than in front.* TOOTHGRAB = Any STALL or move where the staff is held by the mouth/teeth/TONGUE!!! etc. People like myself who experiment with moves like this should prepare themselves for ridicule as it is a silly silly silly move(
).* TUCK = Like an underarm roll. To swing the staff under your armpit, either to catch it there or as part of another moveStill going...i'm writing up some more at home...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz HoP Posting Guidelines
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member
97 posts
Location: Round Rock TX , US
97 posts
Location: Round Rock TX , US
Posted:
OH! OH! What about reversing the direction of spin.We could call it the Jedimastah.
Just kidding. Maybe call it SWITCH or REV.I.E. forward rotor, right tuck, SWITCH or REV., to a reversed rotor.[This message has been edited by jedimastah (edited 19 September 2001).]
OH! OH! What about reversing the direction of spin.We could call it the Jedimastah.
Just kidding. Maybe call it SWITCH or REV.I.E. forward rotor, right tuck, SWITCH or REV., to a reversed rotor.[This message has been edited by jedimastah (edited 19 September 2001).] BRONZE Member
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1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
I like the name for when the staff hits a body part and reverses direction (snap)...(but we could also call it a bounce, or a recoil) I like "recoil" the most. I think this is what jedimaster is refering to.Sounds good on everything so far, especialy the "palm spin" (instead of a palm stall)I think I FINALY understand what you all were talking about regarding pinky spin vs. thumb spin...sort of like what you were thinking about calling a stall in the begining, except the staff is still spinning, right? and pinky spin is "forward" right? please answer, because if I am still not understanding this I am going to cry!
::beats forehead with palm::Charles, are you writing up stuff on rolls, or did you forget to put them in the list, or are you just saving it for later? No pressure! Good work so far people...Are we going to be famouse or what?
I like the name for when the staff hits a body part and reverses direction (snap)...(but we could also call it a bounce, or a recoil) I like "recoil" the most. I think this is what jedimaster is refering to.Sounds good on everything so far, especialy the "palm spin" (instead of a palm stall)I think I FINALY understand what you all were talking about regarding pinky spin vs. thumb spin...sort of like what you were thinking about calling a stall in the begining, except the staff is still spinning, right? and pinky spin is "forward" right? please answer, because if I am still not understanding this I am going to cry!
::beats forehead with palm::Charles, are you writing up stuff on rolls, or did you forget to put them in the list, or are you just saving it for later? No pressure! Good work so far people...Are we going to be famouse or what? we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
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Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Santana two. Sorry, I guess I'm not being expicit enough for the FORWARDS/BACKWARDS thing.Please don't read this without a staff, these explanations will make perfect sense with a staff, and may be confusing without.Hold your staff (or water bottle, or anything else longer than your closed hand)vertically in front of you.Look at the top of your hand where the thumb is at the top. Push the top half of the staff away from your head and down so that it is pointing towards your feet (1/2SPIN).Now look at your hand again, where the thumb end of the hand was on top, now it is facing down. The leading edge, or front part of the move you just completed is what was oringinally the 'top' half of the staff. It is the section that comes out from your grip where your thumb is.Any moves where this is the leading edge, (as in the standard figure 8 in Bec&Elke's book) is classed as FORWARDS.Now again...Hold your staff (or water bottle, or anything else longer than your closed hand)vertically in front of you.Look at the bottom of your hand where the pinkey is underneath . Push the bottom half of the staff away from your feet and up so that it is pointing at the sky. (1/2SPIN).This is called BACKWARDS and for most of us (not all) feels a little more clumsy and unnatural. Note that the spin of the staff was completely reversed compared to the first move.This is just in relation to closed grips, without letting go, and is not related in any way to your body postion, arms, head or CLOCKWISE or COUNTERCLOCKWISE motions.It is only the relationship between your hand and the leading edge that counts, nothing else.Hopefully this helps------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz
Santana two. Sorry, I guess I'm not being expicit enough for the FORWARDS/BACKWARDS thing.Please don't read this without a staff, these explanations will make perfect sense with a staff, and may be confusing without.Hold your staff (or water bottle, or anything else longer than your closed hand)vertically in front of you.Look at the top of your hand where the thumb is at the top. Push the top half of the staff away from your head and down so that it is pointing towards your feet (1/2SPIN).Now look at your hand again, where the thumb end of the hand was on top, now it is facing down. The leading edge, or front part of the move you just completed is what was oringinally the 'top' half of the staff. It is the section that comes out from your grip where your thumb is.Any moves where this is the leading edge, (as in the standard figure 8 in Bec&Elke's book) is classed as FORWARDS.Now again...Hold your staff (or water bottle, or anything else longer than your closed hand)vertically in front of you.Look at the bottom of your hand where the pinkey is underneath . Push the bottom half of the staff away from your feet and up so that it is pointing at the sky. (1/2SPIN).This is called BACKWARDS and for most of us (not all) feels a little more clumsy and unnatural. Note that the spin of the staff was completely reversed compared to the first move.This is just in relation to closed grips, without letting go, and is not related in any way to your body postion, arms, head or CLOCKWISE or COUNTERCLOCKWISE motions.It is only the relationship between your hand and the leading edge that counts, nothing else.Hopefully this helps------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz
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member
97 posts
Location: Round Rock TX , US
97 posts
Location: Round Rock TX , US
Posted:
Staff twirling kicks !@#$%^& ass
Staff twirling kicks !@#$%^& ass
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
goddammit charles!!! why didn't you recommend people ensure the lid of their water bottle is on tight before they twirl it around like a staff!!::hopes she doesn't get electricuted from wet keyboard::
goddammit charles!!! why didn't you recommend people ensure the lid of their water bottle is on tight before they twirl it around like a staff!!
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SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
ok, Charles, this is where my utter confusion comes in. I am trying to understand what you mean by FORWARDS and BACKWARDS spinning. I tried to follow your explanations with a pencil in front of me. Well, I wound up doing exactly the same motion for what you called forwards and backwards. What exactly do you mean by "away from your head"? Does this mean if I am holding the staff with my right hand with my thumb pointing up the pole and I move my thumb down and to the left? Is this what is mean by FORWARD?Similarly, what do you mean by "push the bottom half of the staff away from you feet" which you mention in the explanation of reverse? Does this mean if I am holding the staff again in my right hand with my pinky at the bottom and I move it upward and to the left (which would be the exact opposite of what I did for the forward direction)? Is this reverse? Sorry, I'm just trying to understand here - not complaining about the terminology so please don't take it that way.
ok, Charles, this is where my utter confusion comes in. I am trying to understand what you mean by FORWARDS and BACKWARDS spinning. I tried to follow your explanations with a pencil in front of me. Well, I wound up doing exactly the same motion for what you called forwards and backwards. What exactly do you mean by "away from your head"? Does this mean if I am holding the staff with my right hand with my thumb pointing up the pole and I move my thumb down and to the left? Is this what is mean by FORWARD?Similarly, what do you mean by "push the bottom half of the staff away from you feet" which you mention in the explanation of reverse? Does this mean if I am holding the staff again in my right hand with my pinky at the bottom and I move it upward and to the left (which would be the exact opposite of what I did for the forward direction)? Is this reverse? Sorry, I'm just trying to understand here - not complaining about the terminology so please don't take it that way.
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I understand your issue sprite - learning backwards was a big problem for me.the way i learned it was to really exaggerate the movements...do them really big(doing BIIIG movements with staff in right hand) when I go forwards the back of my right hand passes across my face and and down to the left.when going backwards, my fist and fingers pass across my face and down to the left.I hope that helps a little. I know everyone has different ways of learning but big movements and watching the back/front of my hand was the only way I could learn...and don't forget, if you've never done anything backwards before and have been spinning for a while, it may feel *very* unnatural to you at first.------------------"she dances in a ring of fire and throws off the challenge with a shrug"
I understand your issue sprite - learning backwards was a big problem for me.the way i learned it was to really exaggerate the movements...do them really big(doing BIIIG movements with staff in right hand) when I go forwards the back of my right hand passes across my face and and down to the left.when going backwards, my fist and fingers pass across my face and down to the left.I hope that helps a little. I know everyone has different ways of learning but big movements and watching the back/front of my hand was the only way I could learn...and don't forget, if you've never done anything backwards before and have been spinning for a while, it may feel *very* unnatural to you at first.------------------"she dances in a ring of fire and throws off the challenge with a shrug"
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SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
ok, flash fire, now I'm really confused.I really do want to figure this out and any help is greatly appreciated. How does my hand go down and to the left in both a forward and reverse motion? I definitely understand forward, but you are right, backward is giving me problems. In what I "think" might be backwards, my pinky goes up and towards the left so that I am looking at my curled up fist, and not the back of my hand. Is this right? (i.e. my pinky makes half of a clockwise rotation) Thanks for all the help here.
ok, flash fire, now I'm really confused.I really do want to figure this out and any help is greatly appreciated. How does my hand go down and to the left in both a forward and reverse motion? I definitely understand forward, but you are right, backward is giving me problems. In what I "think" might be backwards, my pinky goes up and towards the left so that I am looking at my curled up fist, and not the back of my hand. Is this right? (i.e. my pinky makes half of a clockwise rotation) Thanks for all the help here.
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I think you've got it. thing to remember is that the leading end of the staff is what determines forwards/backwards (I personally call backwards 'reverse')If you hold your staff upright (vertical) and lead with the top end, you are going forwards. If you lead with the bottom end, you are going backwards.I just hope I'm speaking the same language as everyone else out there!
I think you've got it. thing to remember is that the leading end of the staff is what determines forwards/backwards (I personally call backwards 'reverse')If you hold your staff upright (vertical) and lead with the top end, you are going forwards. If you lead with the bottom end, you are going backwards.I just hope I'm speaking the same language as everyone else out there!
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SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
thanks, that helps. However, I still have problems when people refer to which end is leading. What you might call leading with the bottom, I could call leading with the top since the staff is just one piece of vertical equipment. For instance, I could lead with the top and head either to the left or to the right but this is also the same as leading with the bottom and heading towards either the right or the left respectively. I think I am just seeing things slightly differently than most of the people out there, but actually doing the same stuff.
thanks, that helps. However, I still have problems when people refer to which end is leading. What you might call leading with the bottom, I could call leading with the top since the staff is just one piece of vertical equipment. For instance, I could lead with the top and head either to the left or to the right but this is also the same as leading with the bottom and heading towards either the right or the left respectively. I think I am just seeing things slightly differently than most of the people out there, but actually doing the same stuff.
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Hmm, I just tried it with a pencil and it didn't work, try it with something large and pole shaped, that you have to grip with your whole hand.Here's a stupidly complicated model i've tried to draw. The G is the hand and the arrows show the direction of the staff.The Q is the other hand not being used.The sad-looking head is facing to your leftThis is a really adventurous and dumb picture of the staff traveling FORWARDS, away from the head of the spinner. The head is only used as a point of reference for you to get the spinning motion right, it has nothing to do with the spin, only the wrist and hands matter with the FORWARDS.............www<---..l..../o\____HEAD......l.....\_/ facing left......l.....[ ]......GooO......l......H......l......H......l--->.H.............H.............H.........HHHIf else, this will give people a good laugh(aaargh, the post took out all of the spaces at the front of it, i had to insert all the full stops to make it even again!)------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).]
Hmm, I just tried it with a pencil and it didn't work, try it with something large and pole shaped, that you have to grip with your whole hand.Here's a stupidly complicated model i've tried to draw. The G is the hand and the arrows show the direction of the staff.The Q is the other hand not being used.The sad-looking head is facing to your leftThis is a really adventurous and dumb picture of the staff traveling FORWARDS, away from the head of the spinner. The head is only used as a point of reference for you to get the spinning motion right, it has nothing to do with the spin, only the wrist and hands matter with the FORWARDS.............www<---..l..../o\____HEAD......l.....\_/ facing left......l.....[ ]......GooO......l......H......l......H......l--->.H.............H.............H.........HHHIf else, this will give people a good laugh
(aaargh, the post took out all of the spaces at the front of it, i had to insert all the full stops to make it even again!)------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).] HoP Posting Guidelines
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BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Ahh phooey!!!!I spent ages making a dude holding a staff with little arrows and everything and the BB deleted all the spaces i put in front of it making it look like that mess up thereDoes anyone know how to do ASCII art on this BB?And Spritie (although you may have got it now, the movement isnt left or right. Its forwards (away from your body).The top end of the staff moves away from you and the bottom part comes towards you, with your wrist ans the axis. If you do it fast without flinching, you'll hit yourself in the chin (please don't).Does that help?------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).]
Ahh phooey!!!!I spent ages making a dude holding a staff with little arrows and everything and the BB deleted all the spaces i put in front of it making it look like that mess up thereDoes anyone know how to do ASCII art on this BB?And Spritie (although you may have got it now, the movement isnt left or right. Its forwards (away from your body).The top end of the staff moves away from you and the bottom part comes towards you, with your wrist ans the axis. If you do it fast without flinching, you'll hit yourself in the chin (please don't).Does that help?------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 21 September 2001).]
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BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
bwahahhaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!! nice one
bwahahhaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!! nice one
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SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
ok. I have it now. Thanks guys. Charles, we are doing the same things, but my way of explaining it is compeletly different than yours - hence part of the confusion I think. I'm good now and thank everyone for their help and clarification. Now, just to make doubly sure that I know which is forward and which is backward. If I am holding the staff in my right hand and I spin it in the clockwise direction, I am spinning it forward (yes?, please say yes). I know we don't want to label things as CW and CCW, but that is the easiest thing I can think of at the moment since I keep messing up spinning it to the right/left and away vs. towards. thanks - I think working this all out is great and all of you are doing a wonderful job.
ok. I have it now. Thanks guys. Charles, we are doing the same things, but my way of explaining it is compeletly different than yours - hence part of the confusion I think. I'm good now and thank everyone for their help and clarification. Now, just to make doubly sure that I know which is forward and which is backward. If I am holding the staff in my right hand and I spin it in the clockwise direction, I am spinning it forward (yes?, please say yes). I know we don't want to label things as CW and CCW, but that is the easiest thing I can think of at the moment since I keep messing up spinning it to the right/left and away vs. towards. thanks - I think working this all out is great and all of you are doing a wonderful job.
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
--------No, sprite, no (dramatic voice quavering)The direction clockwise etc doesnt matter, what matters if if you begin the motion with the end of the staff that is closest to you thumb or closest to your pinkey...----I think what we have here is that I think about a "leading edge" with staff moves and you think about the spin and direction.Our approaches may be so different in the way we visualise them that it will take a lot of work by either side to understand what the other is meaning.This is the whole reason for this thread beginning, if we can a have a common language that newbies can latch onto, it'll be easier than trying to adapt to each individual's mental approach to visualisation.I'm sorry Spritie, I think we'll have to meet and physically explain it to each other. Maybe in 2003. (no im not giving up, just postponing it for a while)Anyone else is welcome to have ago.PS Spritie, i went to email the staff man looking as he did originally to you, but you don't have an enail on the system. Could you add it at some point when its ok with you?------------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz
--------No, sprite, no (dramatic voice quavering)The direction clockwise etc doesnt matter, what matters if if you begin the motion with the end of the staff that is closest to you thumb or closest to your pinkey...--
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SILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Posted:
Ok, don't know if this will help, but:When thinking about your leading end - take a ribbon and tie it on one end of your staff. Hold the staff vertical (with ribbon at top). That's your leading end for a forwards/ingle move.Hold the staff vertical with the ribbon at the bottom - now make that the leading end - and you're doing a reverse/backwards.
Ok, don't know if this will help, but:When thinking about your leading end - take a ribbon and tie it on one end of your staff. Hold the staff vertical (with ribbon at top). That's your leading end for a forwards/ingle move.Hold the staff vertical with the ribbon at the bottom - now make that the leading end - and you're doing a reverse/backwards.
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
Does leading mean to move the staff away from your body?
Does leading mean to move the staff away from your body?
SILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Posted:
Leading just means the end that starts first - the end of your stick matey.
Leading just means the end that starts first - the end of your stick matey.
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
https://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000343.htmlPlease
place any response to forwards/backwards thing in thread linked as above...
https://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000343.htmlPlease
place any response to forwards/backwards thing in thread linked as above...
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BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
Oh thank goodness, I am so relived to have gotten something correct finaly...I think alot of other people will bennifit from your clarification, and it was much clearer than anything I have heard so far. Thanks Charles!
Oh thank goodness, I am so relived to have gotten something correct finaly...I think alot of other people will bennifit from your clarification, and it was much clearer than anything I have heard so far. Thanks Charles!
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
I posted this to the other thread that quoted Spritie and Flash Fire's conversation ("STAFF - backwards and forwards...the difference?"), so don't bother reading this if you read that one:Ok, as the person who actually taught Spritie to do the staff, I have to come to her defense and say that I'm a bit bewildered too, even though I think I get it. But I don't think that staff really lends itself to descriptions of "forwards" and "backwards" as easily as poi does. And the main problem I think is this. It is easy to define forward and backward with poi when you are doing the butterfly or weave, but what is forward and backward when you do the windmill or chasing the sun? I think you can't say. With staff, you are essentially doing windmill all the time, so in a sense there is no forward or backward as there is with poi. Now there are CW and CCW windmills, but this definition needs a reference to either the viewpoint of the spinner or an observer, which are going to be mirror images of each other if they face each other. For convention sake, I would default to the observers point of view. But evidently for some reason you all have decided against this sort of convention. Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not, but I'm not going to hunt it down right now.Another problem Spritie is having I think is that her hand grip on the staff is different than many others I've seen (including mine). It works well for her, but trying to tell her how her hand is going to look in forwards vs. reverse is not going to help. Actually, I should just keep my big nose out of this and let you staffers hash this out on your own, but I think you are having definition problems because you haven't agreed on a set and self consistant ways to start defining from. As a scientist, I see this problem all the time - even though, as scientist, we are supposed to do eactly that - agree on definitions. Don't make too much fun of Spritie (I know it can be awefully easy to do so some times though) - she is smarter than your average person, and most above average people too. While she may be easily confused by this discussion, perhaps it is an indicator that a little more thought needs to be put into this before you stick the world with confusing nomanclature.
I posted this to the other thread that quoted Spritie and Flash Fire's conversation ("STAFF - backwards and forwards...the difference?"), so don't bother reading this if you read that one:Ok, as the person who actually taught Spritie to do the staff, I have to come to her defense and say that I'm a bit bewildered too, even though I think I get it. But I don't think that staff really lends itself to descriptions of "forwards" and "backwards" as easily as poi does. And the main problem I think is this. It is easy to define forward and backward with poi when you are doing the butterfly or weave, but what is forward and backward when you do the windmill or chasing the sun? I think you can't say. With staff, you are essentially doing windmill all the time, so in a sense there is no forward or backward as there is with poi. Now there are CW and CCW windmills, but this definition needs a reference to either the viewpoint of the spinner or an observer, which are going to be mirror images of each other if they face each other. For convention sake, I would default to the observers point of view. But evidently for some reason you all have decided against this sort of convention. Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not, but I'm not going to hunt it down right now.Another problem Spritie is having I think is that her hand grip on the staff is different than many others I've seen (including mine). It works well for her, but trying to tell her how her hand is going to look in forwards vs. reverse is not going to help. Actually, I should just keep my big nose out of this and let you staffers hash this out on your own, but I think you are having definition problems because you haven't agreed on a set and self consistant ways to start defining from. As a scientist, I see this problem all the time - even though, as scientist, we are supposed to do eactly that - agree on definitions. Don't make too much fun of Spritie (I know it can be awefully easy to do so some times though) - she is smarter than your average person, and most above average people too. While she may be easily confused by this discussion, perhaps it is an indicator that a little more thought needs to be put into this before you stick the world with confusing nomanclature.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Thank you Vanice, it is good to get a little history and background.And thank you for reiterating my earlier point, that Spritie & myself have completely different ways of thinking about the staff. I had honestly and openly said that in an earlier post.The forwards/backwards train of thought (seems) is very common amongst most staffers I've met (NOT ALL). This way of thinking in critical in the way we perceive our moves and we become just as perplexed when someone else describes things to us without using the forwards/backwards model.This is the whole reason for this thread, to attempt a common language so this becomes less of a problem, and so we can have more staff discussions on HoP for the benfit of all.Unfortunately, there is no way we can accommodate every single person's wishes and I will have to be draconian every now and then and just choose. Also, as far as I can tell, no-one has been "hard" or insulting to Spritie, if they had, I would have considered talking to them and maybe altering their post afterwards...Maybe my ---- was perceived as an attack if so, I apologise. It was merely an expression of my feeling at the time (as we are all allowed to do), but if you (or Spritie) wish, I'll happily delete that comment from my post.Thank you for your input and please keep looking and posting in the staff threads to come...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz
Thank you Vanice, it is good to get a little history and background.And thank you for reiterating my earlier point, that Spritie & myself have completely different ways of thinking about the staff. I had honestly and openly said that in an earlier post.The forwards/backwards train of thought (seems) is very common amongst most staffers I've met (NOT ALL). This way of thinking in critical in the way we perceive our moves and we become just as perplexed when someone else describes things to us without using the forwards/backwards model.This is the whole reason for this thread, to attempt a common language so this becomes less of a problem, and so we can have more staff discussions on HoP for the benfit of all.Unfortunately, there is no way we can accommodate every single person's wishes and I will have to be draconian every now and then and just choose. Also, as far as I can tell, no-one has been "hard" or insulting to Spritie, if they had, I would have considered talking to them and maybe altering their post afterwards...Maybe my --
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AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
I have to add, that I predicted there would be problems when mixing staff centric movement descriptions with person centric movement descriptions...and thats what we have here. fwds and backwards as mentioned by Charles refers to the action of the twirler, not the tool, and --it seems-- Sprite is / was talking about the action of the staff itself.Josh
I have to add, that I predicted there would be problems when mixing staff centric movement descriptions with person centric movement descriptions...and thats what we have here. fwds and backwards as mentioned by Charles refers to the action of the twirler, not the tool, and --it seems-- Sprite is / was talking about the action of the staff itself.Josh
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
well, I'll be....now I'm lost too. I thought forwards/backwards was the motion of the staff.utterly confused now.o well.sorry for causing greater confusion people! I guess you now have to ignore everything I've said in this thread cos I was trying to explain forwards/reverse of the staff.::looks bewildered::
well, I'll be....now I'm lost too. I thought forwards/backwards was the motion of the staff.utterly confused now.o well.sorry for causing greater confusion people! I guess you now have to ignore everything I've said in this thread cos I was trying to explain forwards/reverse of the staff.::looks bewildered::
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BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Flash, yes you are right in a way. Certain moves and staff movements are co-dependant on each other.The path of the staff thorugh the air that your are thinking of is called a FIGURE 8. Not only on this site but also in Bec & Elke's single staff book. (although they go into wrist movements too).What makes this move Forward is that the crossover point (if the center of the staff left a trail then this point would be an X in front of you body) has the thumb-half of the staff passesing through it on stroke. The thumb and (usually) the pointing finger are touch each other the whole time.i.e A downstroke with the leading edge.Backwards is when the staff follows exactly the same pattern in the air (regardless of hands and wrists). But the wrist is turn 180 and begins the move upside down (leading with the pinky end of the staff).Bec & Elke's book describes both the hand and wrist movements too. However, I've come across several people who make the staff follow exactly the same pattern through the air, but hold it differently and sometimes change grips halfway through!I don't want to frustrate these people by them seeing FORWARDS as a FIGURE 8, because any further descriptions on wrist and hand movements won't make sense to them.However, I may have bitten off more than I can chew...We'll see, and I'll keep nutting through it.------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 25 September 2001).]
Flash, yes you are right in a way. Certain moves and staff movements are co-dependant on each other.The path of the staff thorugh the air that your are thinking of is called a FIGURE 8. Not only on this site but also in Bec & Elke's single staff book. (although they go into wrist movements too).What makes this move Forward is that the crossover point (if the center of the staff left a trail then this point would be an X in front of you body) has the thumb-half of the staff passesing through it on stroke. The thumb and (usually) the pointing finger are touch each other the whole time.i.e A downstroke with the leading edge.Backwards is when the staff follows exactly the same pattern in the air (regardless of hands and wrists). But the wrist is turn 180 and begins the move upside down (leading with the pinky end of the staff).Bec & Elke's book describes both the hand and wrist movements too. However, I've come across several people who make the staff follow exactly the same pattern through the air, but hold it differently and sometimes change grips halfway through!I don't want to frustrate these people by them seeing FORWARDS as a FIGURE 8, because any further descriptions on wrist and hand movements won't make sense to them.However, I may have bitten off more than I can chew...We'll see, and I'll keep nutting through it.------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 25 September 2001).]
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