[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted: This man has some intresting stuff to say on Cancer

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
Posted:What he says makes not much sense to me. And it really cheeses me off when people claim that it's all a huge conspiracy by the pharmaceutical companies. Yes, they do have sway, but not so much that they actually alter research. Funding sources must be acknowledged and conflicts of interest must be clearly disclosed. Many researchers have had their careers destroyed over failure to do so.

But the other thing is that there is no such disease as "cancer." Rather, the term "cancer" refers to a collection of many different diseases that all have one thing in common: abnormal and uncontrolled reproduction of a single cell to the point of compromising the organism as a whole.

Some forms of cancer are eminently curable. Especially if caught early. I have personally seen patients cured of various cancers. If I had to get cancer today, I'd pick either thyroid cancer or a melanoma. If caught early, both can be completely cured by surgical resection and perhaps a short course of chemotherapy.

But some forms of cancer are incurable. Pancreatic cancer, small-cell carcinoma of the lung and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma are examples. Also, cancer that has started to spread (metastasize) to other parts of the body distant from its original source are generally more difficult, if not impossible to treat.

The problem lies, in part, with public perception. In the 1940's with the advent of antibiotics, medicine could for the first time cure a disease. Pneumonia, which was formerly lethal, became curable with a drug that had almost no side-effects: penicillin. And so doctors became miracle workers.

The public still expects such performance from medicine in general, but it just so happens that bacterial disease is special because it involves the invasion of the host by a completely foreign organism. Viral disease, autoimmune disease, and neoplastic disease (cancer), unfortunately is much more tricky.

And so because we cannot offer an easy cure, people run off on searches for easy cures. Surely, they reason, there has to be something as easy as antibiotics, that will completely cure the disease and have little or no side-effects. But if you study the molecular biology of cancer, you will come to realize that it's not possible. Cancer will always be a difficult disease. And while our treatments will improve, there will never be a single easy cure for all cancer.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:Fascinating stuff,I've got a feeling that the man speaks the truth...a friend of mine died in september cos of cancer of the liver,and shortly before he died i realised that on a deep level he had lost his will to live and we spoke about this and he admitted he would rather die than go through chemo...he'd done what he wanted to do and was ready to go,no fear whatsoever. I miss him.

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ViciousVixen


member
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA

Total posts: 103
Posted:I think there's some truth to this also. I saw a show about a country western singer, can't remember what her name is, who was diagnosed with cancer. She changed her diet to completely organic foods only, and she got better because her body was detoxified. That was the first I've heard of it. This guy gives more of a reason as to why something like that works.

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Narr


Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step

Total posts: 2568
Posted:tumour are the way the body heals itself!!!!what a load of s*!@!!!funny how people die from these tumours dont you think?!

and all that crap about spending five minutes with him and he'll find the reason behind the cancer, many members of my family have had cancer some were cured others like my grandad died - he by the way he was the happiest man i have ever met, he had lung cancer which spread to his stomach then to his brain, it spread so fast the doctors couldnt do anything -

so the notion that all he had to do was chat about his problems has just enraged me so much i can even put it into words!!and people listen to him!!im sorry i have to stop writing, i am just so pee'd off ! - which doesnt happen easily or often -


she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Narr:
tumour are the way the body heals itself!!!!what a load of s*!@!!!funny how people die from these tumours dont you think?!

I don't want to especially defend this guy cos all I know of him is what I just read in the above mentioned article; but it does clearly say that he sees tumours as a defense against excess sugar, and that the reason people die is because they don't rectify the situation that is causing the body to defend itself in this way. An analogy would be that, for a diabetic, insulin is used to maintain their health, but, in excess, it would kill them.

This is an emotive subject because probably all of us have lost family to cancer.

My Autie died when I was young and that shaped my feelings about cancer treatment, but in the opposite direction.

She went through years of hell whilst bits of her body were surgically removed and recieved massive chemotherapy/radiotherapy (this was in the seventies when they used bigger doses).

Many people question this form of treatment as chemo/radiotherapy attack the bodies immune system and remove the possibility of it tackling the tumours.

My honest feelings were that she would have been better off untreated.

It's difficult to determine whether all these alternative approaches are valid, or just cranks; but the orthodox medical approach to the 'difficult' forms of cancer does need to be questioned.

Also, the situation with pharmacutical manufacturers is decidedly dodgy.

Whilst it is the way things are, and no change is in sight, the fact is they exist primarily to make money and many, many doctors have serious reservations about their influence on the medical system.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Had an intruiging discussion with a friend who went to a Philipine healer.

Classic story went to the doctor and came out with a diagnosis of " go put your affairs in order ... soon". She went to Singapore for healing, had a whole attitude reversal, from highflying business person to vegetarian, natural therapies and is is still with us 20 years later.


She admits that she doesnt understand how it all worked. She also went to a spiritual healer recently and found that very wierd, Judy felt her body being manipulated but couldnt see anyone.
Through the weekend Judy picked up my Poi and was gorgeous with them. Yay senior spinners

Two other friends are going through breast cancer treatment and are very glad of modern therapy and the chance to cure their ailment.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Bobo DCL


member
Location: Halifax

Total posts: 141
Posted:My father is an oncology pharmacist. My mother is an oncology nurse. Between the two, I've learned SO much about cancer. Pretty much everything Lighning has said, I've been hearing at the dinner table for the past, oh, all of my life. (They both worked in the same cancer clinic, now they both work in the same hospital, but my father is now in administration, so I hear more stats now than ever.)

So, I didn't read much of the article, just the first few paragraphs (I'm tired *shrug*), and then read your responses to get the drift on what it was about.

Feh.

I just don't see why humans can't just deal with the fact that some of us die, and we can't do anything about it.

...er, don't mind me, I've been anti-human lately, and stuff. So I'd better stop myself. If I have time, I'll actually read the article tomorrow, and say something.

*falls asleep on computer*


I like orange.And don't take my cookies.

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:Parts of that article made me very, very angry. That's all I'm even going to bother saying.

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...

Total posts: 1107
Posted:Trouble with anything like this is that everyone knows of a Great Auntie Edith who was diagnosed with something completely incurable, went to a faith healer or whatever and lived to be 120. For every one of them there's 100000 who didn't, but we don't consider them.

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:I haven't finished reading the article... Will do in a minute. The outcome of the article won't affect my opinion.

I find that its all relative and that every persons body chemistry is different. Science is not exact; we all know this.
Doctors make educated guesses, its their JOB!!!!!!
Therefore I believe that the opinions expressed in the article cannot simply be tossed away because we have doctors, hospitals and 'appropriate medical care'.

It is always good to have more knowledge. And there is no reason why second opinions should be discarded. Ultimately what happens to a patient should be their descision and I dont believe that anyone can say what is right. Not a doctor, not an alternative therapist, healer or anyone but the individual concerned.

So chill take from the article what you will its just an opinion after all. Everything is.

Hugs love and light
drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Yes, they do have sway, but not so much that they actually alter research.but they only fund research into money-making drugs... I really doubt they'd encourage or fund research that could put them out of a job!

i'm hesitant to discard everything he says, it might have some truths in it. wierd tho


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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mrFlibble
SILVER Member since Mar 2003

Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK

Total posts: 455
Posted:i hate people like that guy who talk utter nonsense that less than intelligent people believe.

i've heard other people talking similar nonsense about other topics on tv, and just by throwing in a few big words they get people to believe what they say.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think it's cool when people try and take advantage of people that are dieing. It makes good marketing sense. What better way to gain fame and noteriety?

Now if only those gays would stop sinning we could stop AIDS.

(Bigtime sarcasm kids.)


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I've long been interested in the orthodox/alternative cancer treatment debate.

Initially I was far more in favour of the alternative camp, as I've gotten older I've come to see some of the dangers such as being drawn to it because it's more pleasant to believe that illness can tackled by dietery or mental approaches, rather than the more painful and destructives orthodox treatments like surgery and radiation.

I've come to realise that 'new age' philosophies draw the gullible, like moths to a flame, it's quite astounding how much people will suspend their rationality because they so much want to believe.

However, rational criticism cuts both ways; it's easy for supporters of medical orthodoxy to condemn irrational alternatives practices without realising that modern medicine is itself subject to those criticisms.

1. For example, it is often pointed out that, as medicine has progressed over the past fifty years, survival cancer rates have gone up; the implication being that medical techniques are soley responsible.

It has however been argued by some that the improvement is, at least partly, due to the fact that the treatments have been toned down i.e. less drastic surgery, much smaller and more focused doses of chemo/radiotherapy.

The suggestion is that many cancer deaths were not brought about by the tumour, but by the ultra agressive treatments inflicted upon the patient.

Naturally, as the medical profession has become aware of the destructive aspects of the treatments and toned it down, more people have survived.

2. Of the alternative treatments there is a lot of variation, some emphasise diet, some emphasise mental attitude, others use certain unconventional chemicals to attack the tumour.

However, many have in common the belief that orthodox techniques are counter productive.

In particular they oppose radio/chemo therapy because they have a highly detrimental effect on the bodies natural means of protection, the immune system.

Many view tumours as a natural part of life, citing the fact that most people when examined after death will be found to have several tumours in their bodies.

They believe that tumours arise and develop continuously throughout our lives, they are held in check or eliminated by the immune system; it is only when exeptional factors like environmental/dietery toxins or extreme stress are in effect, that the tumours become out of control.

Thus, any treatment which attacks the immune system is considered dubious because it hinders the bodies own natural tumour control resources.

3. The insistance on long and expensive 'double blind' testing before a treatment is taken seriously by the medical establishment.

This has the positive side of ensuring that the possibility of trickery or misjudgement is excluded as much as possible.

But, because it costs millions of dollars to do this, there is no possibility of funding for such research into alternative treatments.

Given that pharmacutical companies exist to make a profit, there is no chance that they will fund research into, for example, a treatment based on positive mental attitude, because, not only will they be unable to manufacture a product based on it, but, if it works, it will make their present products obsolete.

4. There are no reliable statistics to compare results of non treatment with those of orthodox medical treatment.

Because the medical system effectivly loses interest in those who refuse to cooperate with their doctors recomendation there tend to be no records of how they fare, compared to those who undergo treatment.

5. The medical system does not acknowledge possible cases of alternative cures, instead it labels them as 'spontaenous remissions' and puts little or no effort into investigating them.

6. In addition, many people deeply resent the way the medical profession treats them, with it's dogmatic insistence that the only approach is the official one.

I have a friend who was training to be a nurse who started to get disturbing symptons such as involuntary shaking.

After long investigation he was found to have a non aggressive tumour very close to his spine.

His choice was to leave it and risk further degeneration, or have surgery which, due to the tumours closeness to his spine, could have resulted in him being in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

As he was a spiritual person with an interest in alternative ways of thinking, after long deliberation he chose to not have the treatment.

His doctor, in what can only be described as bullying behaviour, told him that he was making a mistake and that, as a trainee nurse he was 'being stupid and should know better'.

This was many years ago, he is fine and has no regrets whatsoever about refusing the operation.

-----------------
Let me make clear that all the above aspects of the medical system are totally understandable- it is grossly underfunded and medical personnel barely have time to train and practice the orthodox techniques, never mind investigating alternatives.

Most of the money injected into research will go towards orthodox treatments with potential for profit.

This is not part of some giant conspiracy, designed to deny serious consideration and research into alternative treatments.

Nevertheless, unintentional as it may be, the effect is the same.

Questionable aspects of alternative treatments are focused on, but equally questionable aspects in orthodox medicine are ignored; when alternative treatments fail they are heavily condemned, whilst not mentioning the fact that many people die whilst under orthodox treatment as well.

[ 28. October 2003, 14:29: Message edited by: onewheeldave ]


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ViciousVixen


member
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA

Total posts: 103
Posted:quote:Originally posted by mrFlibble:
i hate people like that guy who talk utter nonsense that less than intelligent people believe.

i've heard other people talking similar nonsense about other topics on tv, and just by throwing in a few big words they get people to believe what they say. Well I hate people who won't open their minds just a little to the vast number of possibilities that exist in the world. It takes more intelligence to ponder something that is not the accepted norm than to shrug off those things which aren't socially accepted truths as nonsense.

Those who would completely shrug off this idea that a healthy diet and mindset can aid in a body's healing process are also being lazy. You can't expect doctors to heal you if you don't also work to improve your own health, physical and mental. It's like blaming a tutor for not helping you improve your GPA when you go out and party every night instead of studying.

I don't think the ideas in the article should be completely bought into either, but damn, is improving your health in order to ward off a disease such a mind-boggling idea for you people?


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Posted:quote:Aided by the grndlichkleit, meticulousness, of his native German culture, reasoning is his forte.

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Narr


Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step

Total posts: 2568
Posted:quote: ... is improving your health in order to ward off a disease such a mind boggling idea for you people.. well yeah thats common sence look after your body and you at a smaller risk of getting ill.

but my interpretation of what he is saying is that it can be cured this way, which is questionable dont you think?!

if done in conjunction with 'traditional'(know its not the right word but couldnt think of the other) methods then i would think it would better your chances of recovering..but done on its own im not so sure.

what upset me was that people would buy into all he had to say, and take that option but then i guess thats their choice.

you have to agree that some of what he has to say it ridiculous, take the talking thing i mention in my last post for example. sure talking about yor problems makes you feel better, but tumours being a result of unhappiness just doesnt wash with me. what next, people with AIDS were sinners in there last life and if they show repentance then they will be cured! i think not.


id just like to appolgise for my last post, was late, and it touched a raw nerve. and as i said before the thought that ill peole would buy into that ridiculousness(if thats a word) upset me alot.

take care
sophie


she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
Posted:You one of the big problems here is that most people do not have degrees in molecular biology and don't have a lot of formal medical training.

If you do have a good understanding of the molecular biological events that lead to cancer, you understand that the characterization of a cancerous tumor as a "defense" is nothing short of ludicrous.

A tumor is caused by genetic mutations in a single cell that prevent that cell from being able to control its own division. Cancer cells lose their ability to repair their own DNA and begin to reproduce wildly. In the process, the DNA gets completely wrecked such that cancer cells often have several times the correct numbers of chromosomes, different chromosomes pulled apart and stuck together, tiny little mutations, etc. At that point, the cancer cells are completely out of control and there's nothing that the body can do to control them since all the normal ways that the body has to tell a cell to kill itself work anymore. In fact, it's common for tumors to grow so quickly and accumulate mutations so quickly that entire parts of the tumor die because the cells are too mutated to live and they can't get enough blood. But enough tumor remains elsewhere to spread.

A tumor is chaos, not order.

The other misconception is that drugs that suppress the immune system are used to treat cancer. Yes, it is true that the drugs used to treat cancer do suppress the immune system. We wish they didn't. But at present, most drugs used to treat most cancers work by preventing cell division. Most parts of the body don't have much cell division going on, but certain parts do. These are the lining of the gut (which is why chemotherapy is so horrible on the GI tract), hair (which is why your hair falls out), and the immune system. We're always working towards better ways of targeting chemotherapy so that it can perhaps get just the tumor cells, and we've made some progress in some tumors, but in the majority, we haven't been able to locate specific gene mutations that we can target.

Of course a healthy diet and lifestyle can help prevent cancer. But it's important to understand that when it comes to cancer, prevention and cure are two different things.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:oh i don't know where to start

yes, this guy is right on the fact that your state of mind is important in your health. duh. does that mean that if you're the happiest stress-free person alive that you won't get sick? absolutely not.

thank you mike, on the comment "tumors are chaos, not order." i'm sorry, but the notion that tumors help us in some way is not a theory i can buy into. i've had cancer. i've been through chemo. i'm still going for checkups every few months. don't ****ing tell me that my body was protecting me cause it's absolute bullshit.

i'm sorry for the profanity, but that touched a nerve.

yes, my stress level didn't help along my treatment, and i believe it probably set me back and i could have healed quicker had i not been extraordinarily stressed out (not just cause of the disease, but because of other things in my life). but would i have gotten it anyway even if i wasn't so stressed? ya, i think so.

argh, i'm not gonna attack that article anymore. i don't need to get more upset at it.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I often wondered why they don't make a cancer killing chemical that is magnetic. You could use powerful magnets to help keep it localized to the area you want it to effect. I realize the problem of makeing magnetic cancer killing chemicals that don't kill cells may be difficult, but the idea seems sound to me.

1 parts ferrofluids 2 parts poison


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Lghtnng:


The other misconception is that drugs that suppress the immune system are used to treat cancer. Yes, it is true that the drugs used to treat cancer do suppress the immune system. I'm a bit confused by what you are saying here.

If the drugs used to treat cancer do suppress the immune system then surely it's not a misconception that drugs that suppress the immune system are used in cancer treatment.

Or are you saying that they don't attack the tumour by suppressing the immune system i.e. the immune suppression is merely a side effect?

If so, I don't see the relevance because whether the immune suppression is intentional or not doesn't alter the fact that these drugs damage the immune system of the body, which is then less able to defend itself against the tumour and other diseases.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:the reason i am not totally convinced by "wot docs say" is cos they nearly killed me thru neglect,they were unbearably arrogant and rude to me when i was completely incapable of fighting my corner and they gave a good friend of mine an overdose of steroids for cancer of the brain,which resulted in her having a crushed spine,when the macmillan nurses found out the dose she was on they were horrified....so i can understand why people would seek out alternatives,not that they are the only answer...

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Many view tumours as a natural part of life, citing the fact that most people when examined after death will be found to have several tumours in their bodies.

They believe that tumours arise and develop continuously throughout our lives, they are held in check or eliminated by the immune system; it is only when exeptional factors like environmental/dietery toxins or extreme stress are in effect, that the tumours become out of control.This bit IS true... you probably get a potentially cancerous cell a day but they usually get destroyed by the immune system, it's the ones that it can't deal with which cause the disease (big C) Cancer

positive attitude, healthy diet and the like help the immune system, and it's not inconcievable that this might cause remission in some cancers - spontaneous remission is documented a plenty

but somehow i do agree and doubt that it'd work on everything! but it's not all bullshit - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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