Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:Hi. Ive been exploring the possibilities of a 2bt crosser, and I think ive come up with a candidate. I will post a video for it soon, but before i do i'd like to hear thoughts on it. Basically I'm combining a regular crosser, with an under arm crosser, and an over the shoulder variation pretty much exactly the opposite of the under arm crosser, into a single move. Each augment adds an extra beat to either side, creating what i think is a 2bt crosser.

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:If this is what I think it is, I think Jon has it in one of his nanotech blogs.

Is it these thingies?



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Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:HAHAH! how come I can never find these things. Yea he actually is a step ahead of me in the video. I hadnt even thought of making a fountain with it. The exact move I did in the video jon does at 00:44.

Thanks man, you've showed me more i can work on today. Now im wondering if i should even bother posting the video, lol.


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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Yeah, people keep beating me to everything cool as well. I only have one or two things under my belt that I haven't seen other people do, and I'm pretty sure that's just because they're not that interesting tongue2

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Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:lol, yea dont that suck. I think i have one more trick up my sleeve. for the longest time i thot i invented arm wraps cuz no one does them. then i found glowsticking.com, ha...haha...*face palm*

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:My favorite was reversing stalls with a sudden plane-breaking isolation, which I thought was pretty unique. Then I saw it in one of Insignia's old tech blogs. Blech. Gotta give Insignia his props, though...

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Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:yea. inventing [censored] nowadays its something to give up on, lol. unless your jesus with two socks and some rice. Oh wait...G looks....nah, couldnt be.
EDITED_BY: Dave Statik (1277398081)


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Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:i dont know why but i cant enable html. sry. well here the vid. u think i should bother putting it in the tutorial section?



EDITED_BY: Dave Statik (1277399320)


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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:I think it's worth putting in the tutorials. It's an interesting and noteworthy variation on crossery weavey goodness. Alternatively you can wait until you can do it along the other diagonal and make a more comprehensive tutorial. Either way I think is fine. It's one of those things I learned by seeing people do it, but I've never seen a tutorial on.

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Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:Ill post it for now...mostly cuz i sent it to admin before i read ur reply, lol...but i will deffinately upgrade it and replace the vid with a more expanded look. Thanks for your input man. tongue2

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere, USA

Total posts: 290
Posted:What I'm doing at 0:44 in the video is 4 beats.

In this case I'm counting 1 beat as 1 rotation of 1 of the poi. If you watch 1 of the poi, there are 4 rotations before the pattern repeats.

In my mind the definition of a crosser is locking into and repeating a cross-over pattern where there is at least 1 degree of twist in the wrists/arms, and that degree of twist never changes. Most of them are naturally 2-beats. Some of them, like a split-opposite huggy, are 3 beats.

Once you are allowing twisting and untwisting (changing degrees of twist), then you aren't doing a crosser. More likely a wall-plane offset weave, or multi beat mill pattern.


+Alien Jon

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Dave Statik
GOLD Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine, USA

Total posts: 106
Posted:ok, i was focused on 2bts on either side. so the number 2 got stuck in my head, lol. right so 4 beats. I deffinately agree with untwisting making the pattern not a crosser, but going along the diagonal, like in 0:44 your arms dont really untwist...so is that still not a crosser?

Either way, thanks Jon for the clarification. rolleyes i dont know whats going on with the vid, its not up yet, so maybe it wont go up, so thats good i suppose. Saves me from immortalizing myself as the the guy who made a half ass tutorial on a move that wasnt even right. lol.

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere, USA

Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: Dave Statik... I deffinately agree with untwisting making the pattern not a crosser, but going along the diagonal, like in 0:44 your arms dont really untwist...so is that still not a crosser? ...

There is certainly a moment where my arms are in a 1st-degree crossed position, which is the transition point to a huggy crosser. But if I have to slap a name on this, it is a type or 4-beat 180 mill (as opposed to 180 weave) that is "offset".

Basically there is an overarching category of same-direction patterns that involve cross-overs, where the arms are twisting and untwisting. This includes turning, "180-weaves", fountains (with cross-overs, not buzzsaw), etc... Most people focus on split-same and neglect together-same, but I digress. Many people just slap the name 'weave' on all of these.

On the other hand Arashi coined the term 'spider' (as opposed to butterfly) waaaaayyyy back in the day to talk about this over-arching category of patterns. I would have to confim with him if he includes together-same cross-overs under 'spiders', but let's focus on split-same.

In my mind, 'spider' has sub categories 'weave' and mill' (as in windmill, watermill, shoulder-mill, hip-mill, corkscrew, etc)... I won't go over the subtle differences between weave and mill here, but they are distinct *EDIT* oops, I went into it bellow crazy . People tend to call weaves that turn back and forth 180 weaves, and mills that turn back and forth waist wraps... or I guess shoulder wraps if you do it over your shoulders... but they are all spiders.

Some longer sequence patterns can involve both weave and mill components.

As was defined on spherculism.net {RIP}, one can have an "offset weave". 'Offset' means you repeat a pattern that has the same number of beats and cross-overs as the simple symmetric one, but you do less arm twisting on one side, and more on the other to compensate and keep the beats consistant. A good example would be to offset a 3-beat weave, which normally has a 1st-degree twist on each side of the crossover. A common offset version would be 2nd-degree twist on one side and 0-degree on the other... in other words half a 5-beat and half a 2-beat. A slightly crazier version would be 3rd-degree <-> 1st-degree, AKA half a 7-beat & the pre-untwisted half of a 3-beat... which never reaches 0 degrees of twist.


Sooooo, in the video, I was doing an offset version of an old waist-warp/shoulder-wrap, which originally goes from 0-degree to 1st-degree and back on each side of the body. However, I have offset it so that it uses 2nd-degree and 1st-degree twists, never untwisting fully to 0... but since there is twisting and untwisting between degrees os arm crossing, it is not a crosser.

Of course this is because my definition of a (huggy) crosser is a 2-beat reel that has been offset to 1st-degree. An UTA cross is a 2-beat mill that has been offset to 1st-degree.

Here we gooooo------------------------

It just dawned on me that I have never defined the the distinctions as clearly as I am thinking of it now so, her comes some more:

Weave: wheel-plane spider, both poi's cross-points aim in the same direction, the torso is not contained in the twist.
Mill: horizon-plane or wall-plane spider, both poi's cross-points aim in the same direction, the torso is not contained in the twist.

Gremlin (named by Fire Groove): wheel-plane spider, each poi's cross-point aims in a different direction (ie front/back), the torso IS contained in the twist. {Some people call this a wheel-plane meltdown, but I like having a distinct name because it illustrates a distint sub-set in the spider hierarchy.}

Reel & Meltdown: wall-plane spider, each poi's cross-point aims in a different direction (ie left-side/right-side), the torso IS contained in the twist. {A meltdown is a 4-beat reel that is twisting and untwisting between degrees, but your body is in the middle and being twisted around. Also, horizon-plane should be possible.}

It is important to note that the difference between 2-beat gremlin and 2-beat reel, or 2-beat weave and 2-beat mill is subtle, and may seem trivial. It is a quarter turn with fixed planes in terms of body orientation, but in terms of how your arms twist in your shoulder socket, and therefore how much more twisting potential you have, it does make a difference. This becomes non-trivial once you start dealing with higher degrees of twist.

The orientation of shoulder girdle to the cross-point plane is also a defining factor. I now believe this is actually what defines "wheel-plane" or "wall-plane" spinning. This is what dictates how you will have to twist your arms in the shoulder sockets (essentially the full range of motion for degree of twist originates in the shoulder socket). By shifting your shoulders orientation to the cross-point plane, you dictate a subtle 'offset' of degrees in the shoulders, which is subtle in the wrists and can go unnoticed. This precipitates the apparent difference between wall-plane and wheel-plane.

If you abstract a human body from the picture, then we can simply say:
With even beat spiders the leading and chasing poi never changes, but with odd beat spiders leading and chasing poi changes on each side of a cross-over.

It is only when we look at the human body doing the twisting that we can differentiate if the twists made by the arms are symmetric or offset.


+Alien Jon

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