Forums > Social Discussion > US educational "brainwash"

Posted: 5th Sep 2009
Hi Fire Tom, I saw that interview a few weeks ago, and a few things come to mind.

Firstly, Obama was suggesting that the States might feel some financial pressure to provide education to all sections of the community, including the underprivileged Afro American and Hispanic communities. Personally, I think it would also be necessary to increase welfare to these underprivileged communities as it would help reduce truancy.

Secondly, there a fear of authority in America. Any attempt to improve the national education standard would be seen by some sections as another step on the slippery road to communism.

Third, perhaps the right wing religious extremists feel threatened because real science might be reintroduced into the classroom.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 5th Sep 2009
i would say stone that unless people change attitudes giving them more money isnt going to help truancy at all, if anything it will mean they will have more money to spend on things while avoiding school.

the fear of authority is not an american issue, its a global issue. what do you think things like education and healthcare are state controlled in australia? because in the formation of the federation individual states didnt want to lose their power to a newly formed and questionable national government. its not about 'zomg communism', its about keeping power local and (hopefully) accountable.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 5th Sep 2009
What can I say Mr Majestik?

Happy Birthday



Obama is about change, and improving the education standard for "ALL" Americans.

Actually that one about communism comes up a lot. In a recent interview on PBS about Obama’s ideas on nationalised health, there were gun slingers in the crowd. Now by gun slingers I mean just that gunslinger. So called adult men wearing gun and holster just like cowboys (apparently it’s still legal in some states). When these gunslingers were interviewed on PBS they all commented about the slippery slope to communism, and how America is turning into a “nanny state”.

From my point of view, the sooner we get rid of State governments the better.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 5th Sep 2009
Happ Be-day Mr. Majestik

Stone: Following the Bush administration and NOT being about change is like playing russian roulette, all chambers loaded.

The US is a lot about "believe in..." (the american dream) and just a little about living up to their own ideals of freedom, democracy and peace.

Adressing the public and telling students to go to and stay in school is one thing - "to have the U.S. Department of Education send detailed instructions to public schools nationwide on how to glorify the president and the presidency ... is another thing entirely".

Me is no naysayer when it comes to national health care, gun control and other topics. That alone doesn't make a "nanny-state".

But when it comes to nationalistic propaganda, glorifying the government and country, misinformation (or absence of information) about global issues and other nations ("is Hitler still ruling Germany?") - it smells.

Personally would rather homeschool my child than sending it to an institution where it has to sing the national anthem every morning, hail the flag and learn unconditional obedience.

Education is most important - and having studied educational science myself - I regard healthy scepticism as paramount.

It's not about "fear" of authority - it's about keeping an open eye and mind on what is happening around you... called "awareness" btw...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 5th Sep 2009
Hiya Majestick..happy belated.

I had a look at the plan/guide ( links in the article linked to in the OP ) and i can't see anything in there that can even be remotely construed as "indoctrination" or "brainwashing" . Of course, the speech has yet to be aired, but at this stage of the game it looks more like conservatives are simply freaking out over liberals ( in the American sense of the word ) as they are wont to do.

As far as I can tell, that quote from the Cato Institute is over the top and unless they have prior knowledge of the contents of the yet-to-be-aired speech then it too should be treated as the same type of propaganda it purports to oppose.

Are they seriously expecting me to believe that Obama's going to try and market ideas like 'socialised" health care to elementary school children ?

Communism ? Nanny state ?...Typical conservative hyperbole, next they'll be claiming that there's some sort of subliminal message embedded in the speech and when played backwards.........

Posted: 6th Sep 2009
Hi stout

Fire Tom, awareness does not mean paranoia.

And, by the way, what have you got against Obama? And why are you always trying to undermine his government by comparing him to Hitler?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 6th Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: StoneAnd, by the way, what have you got against Obama? And why are you always trying to undermine his government by comparing him to Hitler?

I could easily take offense in you putting words in my mouth. But maybe you're just victim to selective reading - so I give this one more time:

- I'm NOT comparing Obama with Hitler
- I hold nothing against him personally

You tattoo that on the inside of your eyelids or post it on top of your screen please, because I wouldn't enjoy hearing this accusation again...

What I do is not getting dazed by propaganda. If that to you is "paranoia", then you find me confused. It appears as if you're wobbling between "awareness" regarding guns and "paranoia" regarding government regulation or vice versa. But that's just me - I would like to see a balanced approach altogether. If you're saying that Obama is not using propaganda, then I consider you a dreamer. Even the Dalai Lama is using "propaganda"... every politician does.

Stout long time no see The Cato Institute places itself politically on the "neo-liberal" end of the spectrum... maybe for the US that is "conservative" dunno... I don't agree with private social service and unregulated markets - especially not after what we've seen coming from this.

Not sure whether Cato needs to know details about the content of his speech... I feel it's more important to know details about the guidelines handed out for discussion by the ministry of education.

Reding Cato's statement, they do support Obama adressing students, encouraging to pursue an academic career - just they are opposing the way the following discussion should be guided. NOW I don't know the content of his speech (we'll have to wait for that) but we might NEVER know the content of these guidelines...

and this is the crucial point here: we might never learn about the full context this speech is in.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 6th Sep 2009
Hi Tom and Stone, good to be back after my self imposed internet exile that I force myself to endure every spring and summer. It's worth it though, as I now have 8 months off and a briefcase full of cash with which to enjoy those months.

Ummm, yea, "neo-liberal". A rather loaded term that can have several applications depending n who one is talking to but the guy who wrote the press release, Neal McCluskey, looks like a hard core conservative to me.

If you're looking to introduce intelligent design into a school curriculum, then Neal's your man. Check this out

FWIW, I'm a political centrist which means I can criticize both the left and the right depending on my whims

Tom, we do have the content of the guide/plan, they're linked to in the article posted in the OP and as for the contents of the speech, I doubt anybody is going to try and keep it a secret. Let's see what we can find on Sept 9

Posted: 7th Sep 2009
US educational "brainwash"

Originally Posted By: Fire Tom
I'm NOT comparing Obama with Hitler
I hold nothing against him personally

Good Fire Tom, then we’ll overlook the following, and previous comments, this time

Originally Posted By: Fire TomBut when it comes to nationalistic propaganda, glorifying the government and country, misinformation (or absence of information) about global issues and other nations ("is Hitler still ruling Germany?") - it smells.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 7th Sep 2009
Thanks Stout - I'm certain your studies at school helped you loads to achieve this

Seriously, thanks to point out the link to those guidelines for me. I'm split over their content.

Maybe fact is that the presidency needs an overhaul after gotten raped by George, maybe it's about "keep manifesting the american dream"... maybe it's about "ask what you can do for your country" (other than fighting senseless wars a long way from home)?

I have no good feeling with this... "change" is necessary for interpersonal relationships, for international relationships of the American people - and often this "change" is not for the better.

The color of the presidents skin alone is not going to make that difference... and supporting the government stems not from unconditionditional obedience.



***

Stone... and where exactly do you find me comparing Obama with Hitler? You're *assuming* a double meaning behind this sentence and you are jumping conclusions... None of which have anything to do with what I was saying.

Whether or not Hitler would still be running Germany is a question Germans get frequently asked in the US. Only recently a friend of mine came back from Louisiana reporting this...

It is apparent that US American students are prepared NOT to know much about the world outside the US. Which continues in real life: When I lived in L.A. I had to watch CNN to get any information, even on what is going on inside the US even - as there has been 99% news about L.A. and Ca. alone...

If one aims to dominate the world, maybe it helps to know something about it

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 7th Sep 2009
Oooops, never should have made that 'briefcase full of cash" comment. I just got a 419 offer from someone going by the handle eve4u. Seriously, do people STILL fall for this crap ?

Anyways

The rumour mill has it that a canned copy of the speech will be available on the White House website sometime today so parents can preview it.

I'm not going to go looking for it, preferring instead to read the comments of Fox news viewers as they try to ferret out veiled references to Communism.

Posted: 8th Sep 2009
Hi Stout, good to see back and all cashed up.

I’ll stick with my original comment that Obama was suggesting that the States might feel some financial pressure to provide education to all sections of the community, including the underprivileged Afro American and Hispanic communities. I’ll watch it all on SBS World News Australia and Jim Lehrer on the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) in the United States, also on SBS.






Originally Posted By: Fire Tom Stone... and where exactly do you find me comparing Obama with Hitler? You're *assuming* a double meaning behind this sentence and you are jumping conclusions... None of which have anything to do with what I was saying.

Fire Tom, to answer your question. I found you comparing Obama to Hitler in the broken promises thread (below). You do it quite frequently, which is why I brought it up. I don’t think there was any double meaning in your sentence, I think your meaning was quite obvious.

Originally Posted By: Fire Tom from Pres. Obamas broken election promises Let me drag a really extreme example into the open only to display: there are ppl out there, who claim that Hitler has been a great man, only because under his regime, the Autobahn has been developed and the unemployment was low and so was the crime rate. All three are correct observations, only greatly misjudging, because the Autobahn has mainly been built as to transport troops and armoury - thus in preparation of a war, also the "full employment" was mainly due to ppl working in the arms industry and that the reports about crimes often got censored - amongst a lot of other reasons, why Hitler has neither been a grand leader, nor a great man.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 8th Sep 2009
Stout: now watch closely... your eyelids are getting more and more heavy... all sounds vanish, except my words remain echoing in your mind: "must.... moneygram... to Tom..."



thanks in advance

*
*
*



Stone: thanks for dragging yet another thread into a personal tet-a-tete...

I AM NOT COMPARING OBAMA WITH HITLER! I WISH OBAMA THE BEST OF SUCCESS TRANSFORMING AND BRINGING THE USofA TOWARDS A RESPECTFUL AND COMPASSIONATE NATION! PERIOD.

But maybe it is too much for you if other people use extreme examples to make their point (obvious).

*shalt not react to Stones comments in the future*

Love and Light


EDITED_BY: FireTom (1252396679)
EDIT_REASON: additional income ;o)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 8th Sep 2009
Will send moneygram tomorrow : stop
On 09/09/09 : stop
For $09 : stop
Adressed to Tom in India : stop

Whew !

It looks like the fringe right may have been right after all. By forcing an advance copy of the speech, they've managed to expose the communist plot and gotten the speech replaced with something more acceptable.

Originally Posted By: CNNFlorida Republican Party Chairman Jim Greer last week accused Obama of trying to "indoctrinate America's children to his socialist agenda."


"Now that the White House got their hand in the cookie jar caught, they changed everything," he said Monday.

After reading the text, he said, "My kids will be watching the president's speech, as I hope all kids will."

link here

Damn

I'd invested all my money ( save $09, for some strange reason ) into designed Chairman Mao jackets in the hopes that they'd be the next back to school fad.

Posted: 9th Sep 2009
Stout, similar reports in Australia. Though, I’m left wondering who or what is the "National Tea Party Coalition", mentioned near the end of this article.

Obama gives students televised pep talk

“US President Barack Obama has delivered his much-anticipated televised national pep talk to American students. The speech had become a lightning rod for criticism from conservatives, who accused the White House of trying to indoctrinate children with a political ideology. But in the end there were no politics in the address - it was a pep talk urging them to study and work hard, mixed in with a large dose of patriotism. And there were no surprises because the text had been released a day early so that parents could review it……

But Michael Leahy of the National Tea Party Coalition - which is opposed to the speech - said the political message was only removed because of conservative pressure. "The speech was less political largely because we activists put pressure on," he said.”

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 9th Sep 2009
and in further news, purple martians from venus revoked their threat to attack earth after i quite rightly pointed out i didnt want them to. rationalists pointed out that the likelihood of there ever being aliens as somewhat unlikely, but obviously since they havent attacked i was right.

*end pointing out the stupidity of michael leahys' statement*

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 9th Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: ABC"Hi Mr President, my name's Jessie - when I grow up, I would like to have your job - is there any advice you can give me, or career paths, things I need to know?" one student asked.

"Let me give you some very practical tips," Mr Obama replied.

"First of all, I want everybody here to be careful about what you post on Facebook, because in the YouTube age, whatever you do, it will be pulled up again later somewhere in your life.

"I've been hearing a lot about young people who, you know, they're posting stuff on Facebook and then suddenly they go apply for a job and somebody's done a search.

"So that's some practical political advice for you right there."



Originally Posted By: ABCmixed in with a large dose of patriotism

yea I'm not going to comment on that one... thanks

*though it's not Facebook, I shall follow up on Pres. Obamas political advices*

Stone: thanks for that, PM with my address on the way

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 9th Sep 2009
I'm having a hard time believing the conservatives when they say they managed to alter the content of the speech. If someone can show me an advance copy of the speech with the "offending" passages that were supposedly removed, then I just may. Nut here and now, I'm calling BS on those claims because I fail to see how Obama could consider even doing this.

What's he going to try ? Selling national health care to a group of elementary school students ? Smearing Republicans ?

I think it's important to NOT confuse patriotism with "indoctrination". This is the USA and patriotism is their middle name so there's nothing new here.

I was watching an episode of Penn and Teller's Cowspoo! last night ( the one on taxes ) and there was one of the founding editors of the Huffington Post on there beaking off in a very patriotic fashion, meaning that patriotism is neither a liberal nor conservative issue.

I side his Facebook reference, it's something kids can relate to and serves as a reminder that anything you post on the internet can/will come back to haunt you later in life, especially if you do it under your real name,

Posted: 13th Sep 2009
Speaking of indoctrinating children

Posted: 14th Sep 2009
Stout,

Man, I want one of them “Pro-Life, Pro-God, Pro-Gun, Go America” Hoodie's so bad.


I think that if the T-party rally in Washington on Saturday is anything to go by, then it’s too late to educate Americans. What people mistake for patriotism is nothing more than thinly veiled racial prejudice and jingoism.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 14th Sep 2009
NOW, there he's showing his real face !!!! FINALLY!!!

An all American patriot - a conservative, Obama hating gun cuddler!!! Get OUT of here

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 14th Sep 2009
Stone, I highly reccomend the red, whit and blue colour scheme, I have a closet full of them because eventually the USA is going to realise that Canada has more oil than the middle east and invade. I want to blend in.

I find it difficult to fault a country for being patriotic and it's by no means a uniquely American thing however I'm unsure about mixing patriotism with racism. I do agree that the concept of Othering is a very useful tool when trying to market an aggressive foreign policy to the home audience.

Posted: 15th Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: StoutStone, I highly reccomend the red, whit and blue colour scheme, I have a closet full of them because eventually the USA is going to realise that Canada has more oil than the middle east and invade. I want to blend in.

Stout, I can see your concern. However, I would not be too worried. The success rate of America is very low when it comes to invading other countries

Originally Posted By: StoutI find it difficult to fault a country for being patriotic and it's by no means a uniquely American thing however I'm unsure about mixing patriotism with racism. I do agree that the concept of Othering is a very useful tool when trying to market an aggressive foreign policy to the home audience.

I’m not familiar with the concept of Othering. However, from a historical perspective the current situation just seems to be a continuation of racism.

The pity here is that such a great leader as Obama is being hamstrung by such small minded people. All Obama is doing is trying to avoid recession and make America once again a great Nation. The irony is that people he is trying the most to help, are the ones that are trying to bring him down. I mean why bother?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 15th Sep 2009
Racism is a fear of the racial 'other'.

Othering in its most basic form is fearing or being disturbed by that which is different from you, it works from political ideology to race, to whether or not you like Ford or Holden more. It can be anything that you can be categorised for, essentially.

The other referred to is of a group that is other than the group to which you belong.

Usually the other is taken as being a binary opposite to your own group. In this case the republicans are conservative... and if you're not a republican you're probably an "obamunist"

Posted: 15th Sep 2009
Thanks.

So what's the connection with continental philosophy?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 15th Sep 2009
I couldn't tell you, my knowledge of the other is from a literary background rather than a philosophical background. Its not really important to this thread, but if you did a little research I'd also be somewhat interested by what you found in that area.

Posted: 15th Sep 2009
Stout, https://www.nationalteaparty.org/
They are absolute freakin' lunatics who, like most, don't actually do research and spew conservative redderick as gospel.
They do my head in.

So, I'm coming in as the token American. I shouldn't. I should just keep my mouth shut, but when has that ever stopped me?

Stout, you're right. Conservatives have no real bearing on what Obama said. Pre-speeches were released before editting and they didn't hold political agendas. However, if you look up past presidents, George W. Sr. made a similar address to kids, but he did push a tax agenda in it, to kids who didn't know what taxation was. Ronald Reagan preached about defenses to kids who were more worried about a playground bully.

The other interesting thing, adults can get up in arms all they want about this speech but most kids don't see it. None, not one, of the area schools here showed it. It was made on Sept 8th, and in fact most northern schools weren't even in session until Sept 9th.
I made my son read the transcript because I thought it delivered a strong message but his school was too busy getting into the swing to even pay attention. If I hadn't, he wouldn't have even known it existed. Media, especially international media, puts so much effort into blowing things up into being so much more than what they are. Kids can't be brainwashed if they aren't listening to the speech.
As a teacher I used to say to the parents of my kids that I will believe half of what they say about what goes on at home if the parents agree to believe half of what goes on in school, since
kids are prone to exaggeration and skewed view.
I view the media in the exact same way.
If I believed 100% everything I read about international news, or if I only looked into one side, then I would be heading for the hills to hide in a cave for the rest of my life.

Here's the thing, the US, even before the Civil War was locked in a North vs. South- conservative vs. liberal- political battle.
In the south people still wave the Confederate Flag with the American Flag, a symbol of southern strength (tangent: when Roarfire visited here we found out that Aussies have adopted this flag as part of their bogan culture even though it means nothing to them...wt???). Long before racial issues existed, this did. The racial issue simply gave it an excuse to flourish under a figure head, sadly.

Enter Obama.
He's not just half-black, nor is he just liberal. He's from poor stock and has proven that he's intelligent and strong by moving beyond it. He has demonstrated that he has not only the desire to press change but the tenacity. This is *everything* the white bred conservatives fear. It's like a mini-Civil War all over again but in a more "polite" forum.
Worse, the public loved him enough to vote for him.

Status quo protects the pundits.
Obama is anything but.

He has risen to many occassions that shouldn't have been worth his time and yet, there are the conservatives still holding tightly to any straw they can grasp, attempting to turn it into an arrow.
Their bitterness, their antiquated ideals are under scrutiny and it makes them shift in their seats.

If anyone is guilty of (attempted) brain washing, then the conservatives haved been weighed and measured far more strongly.

The National Tea Party?
How about the Full Quiver movement? A portion of the drive behind it is to breed more white conservatives and put them in politcal seats all the while teaching surpression of women in addition to minorities.
These are a portion of the dissenting conservative voices. People who previously supported political agendas in the educational address, but only because it was their guy doing it.

Obama isn't perfect but at least he isn't a back slide in a fancy suit, and his speech over the past Republican "Education" Speeches spoke volumes about that.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 16th Sep 2009
Well MNS, I had a go at answering my own question on continental philosophy, and I came to a rather alarming conclusion. That was, given the combination of racism, ignorance and misplaced patriotism that was evident at the DC rally on the weekend, then the tea party must closely resemble an early nazi party. The rally was extremely well organised, and given that some estimates were as high as two million people attending the rally, then that is some scary message they are sending to the world.


Hi Pele, good to see you back.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 16th Sep 2009
Hey Stone. I actually never left, I've just been lurking without anything to say.

If you can even imagine that. lol



Stone, to also reply "hate groups", Neo-Nazi/Skin heads and other extremists are becoming insanely organized now. Where they used to just kind of blow up, they are now dressing well and handing pamphlets out on the street. They are opening dojo's to teach young men to "defend" themselves. They have joined in politics as supporters of The National Tea Party and such (gods such a stupid name I can't get over it!). It's become extremely well organized and is being touted as "the new face of hate".
It's scary.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 16th Sep 2009
Hi Pele,

Lurking, with nothing to say. While that is hard to imagine, I admire the restraint I wish I had more self control.

I’m no expert on world politics, but a few things have made me wonder what’s going on recently. I was a little taken back by Joe Wilson’s ”liar” outburst during the Presidents speech on healthcare to Congress last week. Then there was the Tea Party rally on the weekend. So I’m wondering who is pulling the strings. I know some commentators are saying that health care insurance lobby had a lot to do with the DC rally.

Cheers for now

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh