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Salinger
member
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2001
Total posts: 382
Posted:Who else has seen this film/documentary yet? I found it really interesting, drawing on things like gun culture and the nra, etc.

I dread to think what Raymund's gonna say though

Any thoughts?



A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...


Pyro_Tech
Pyro_Tech

Crazy Nutter stuck in Farmidale...
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Member Since: 4th Jan 2003
Total posts: 264
Posted:I went with my group of freshers in my block at college, cause as their RA I thought that it'd be good for them to see it....
It was fantastic! Really thought provoking is the word I guess....It made me look at the issues in ways I hadnt really thought to...
Very cool...!
Rach


We all take different paths in life, but no matter which path we take, we take a little of each other everywhere...


Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:I saw Bowling for Columbine when it was on BBC TV before it was released to cinemas/video. Michael Moore is one of my heroes because he has the guts to research and contradict these issues. I highly recommend it. Go see!

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"


Dio
Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:I suppose it's a decent documentary, but I resent constantly having my interests and hobbies demonized like they're going to turn me into a terrorist or something. It does deserve attention, but I think they're looking at it from the wrong direction. Just my opinion though.

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.


Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:I haven't actually seen it yet, though I really want to. Someone pointed me to this page, on the truth about Bowling for Columbine, which probably makes a very good read if you have seen the film.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. However people with guns can kill people more easily than people without guns. Do the math.


Magnus... pay it forward


Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54460-2003Jun13.html
br>
Spears kill people. Knives kill people (remember that janitor who stabbed 30 kids and killed 7 or something like that?)

No one is going to kill me and 20 other people on the street with any weapon if people are allowed to carry a pistol. Maybe they will kill a few before someone returns fire but they certainly will not go on a killing spree. It is stupidly easy to get guns. They are easier to smuggle then drugs and the multi-billion dollar american drug war certainly didn't do anything to put a dent in the drug import.

You guys are sadly naive if you think legislation of any sort really solves a whole lot.



TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Astar:

Spears kill people. Knives kill people (remember that janitor who stabbed 30 kids and killed 7 or something like that?)
Yeah, but imagine what the death toll would have been if the janitor had a handgun.

And imagine if the people in that article had handguns rather than spears - being shot in the back and the face would do a fair bit more than putting the victim in hospital and leaving him with scars


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.


Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:Imagine this. People carry guns for self defense, Killing sprees rarely happen and when they do they don't get far because people defend themselves with guns.

ok now imagine this.

People aren't allowed to carry guns for self defense. Killing sprees happen more often and the criminals have guns but no one else does because the government took them all away. It is patheticly easy for criminals to aquire guns and they victimize people on a regular basis.

It's pretty simple. the bad guys will always have guns, the good guys will never have guns if you make them illegal because good guys don't break the law.



Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Salinger:
Who else has seen this film/documentary yet? I found it really interesting, drawing on things like gun culture and the nra, etc.

I dread to think what Raymund's gonna say though

Any thoughts?

I dunno. Ray enjoyed Stupid White Men when he read it. But I don't think he has seen "Columbine", I don't think they would screen it on the military bases with the rest of the new releases

But with the subject, there was a lot of discussion around this during a period in October of last year when there was a sniper in the USA who had shot several people.

I am going to repost what I posted at the time. It is mainly "quote", but worth reading:

Australia has gone through major law reforms with regards to gun control in the last decade. The following should give some background:


quote: Firearms Reform - debated nationally for many years.

The issue of firearms reform has been on the agenda of the Australasian Police Ministers' Council many times in past years. Some of the measures agreed at the 10 May meeting had been raised in 1987 and again in 1990 and 1991. Previous Commonwealth governments were unsuccessful in their efforts to bring the States and Territories together to implement effective nationwide firearms controls.

The need to strictly control the availability of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns was reinforced by the tragic killings in Hoddle Street and Queen Street, Melbourne in 1987, Strathfield in Sydney in 1991 and at Port Arthur in 1996.

Figures prepared by the Australian Bureau of Statistics highlight the fact that in the 16 years from 1980 to 1995, more than 10,150 people were killed in firearm related deaths. *

The agreement on firearms law reform reached at the special meeting of Australasian Police Ministers on 10 May 1996 was the result of detailed preparation and extensive consultation over many years.

Working together
Governments are working with the community to remove the most dangerous firearms from circulation.

The Commonwealth is meeting the costs of establishing the firearm buyback schemes and of setting up the new licensing and registration systems. Part of the funding has gone to a 12-month firearm buyback ending 30 September 1997. In addition to the buyback, an amnesty is in place across Australia to allow for the hand-in of any firearm or ammunition without prosecution. State and Territory public education campaigns are in operation to explain the new measures. (In South Australia the buyback ended on 28 February 1997 and the amnesty ends on 30 June 1997.)

The costs of an upgrade to the central core component of the National Exchange of Police Information system, and the development of national core standards for firearms safety training for new firearms licence applicants, have also been met by the Commonwealth.

* Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics, Firearms Deaths in Australia 1980-95, ABS Catalogue No. 4397.0


In terms of deaths caused by firearms in Australia, here is some info:


quote: In a household where a firearm is kept, it is 48 times more likely that the firearm will be used to kill a member of the household than an intruder.

In the past decade 116 people have been killed in Australia and New Zealand in 14 massacres where four or more people have been shot.

Military style semi-automatic firearms were used by only six of these perpetrators, yet their victims accounted for 74% of the 116 people.

There were 84,000 firearms, excluding military firearms imported into Australia between January and December in 1995.

Research conducted for the Commonwealth in 1996 showed that 10 percent of Australians own a firearm. Sixteen percent of Australians live in a household where there is a firearm.

More information about firearm deaths and injuries in Australia is available in studies conducted by the Australian Institute of Criminology, the Institute of Health and Welfare and the Australian Bureau of Statistics

Australia's is not a perfect scheme. It was incredibly costly. However the country has proved that a concerted effort can bring about reform.

The UK looked at bringing in similar reforms after the killing of young kindergarten students in Scotland. To my knowledge this was not done, the feeling being that current legislation was sufficient.


Further info from the Dept of Criminology:

A study conducted between 1 July 1997 (end of firearms amnesty for buyback scheme in Australia) & 30 June 1999 shows that:


quote: Of the 117 offenders who used firearms to commit homicide, only 11 (9.4%) homicide offenders were licensed firearms owners with registered firearms
The report goes on to say that whilst there has been an overall decline in homicides committed involving firearms, the pattern of homicides has changed. The number of licensed legal firearms involved in homicides has been reduced, suggesting that irresponsible and unsuitable persons have had reduced access to legal guns (gun licensing becoming more effective). However these people are also likely to obtain firearms through illegal means.

It suggests that any further legislation in this area is likely to only affect legal gun owners. And further attention needs to be paid to the trade in illegal firearms.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


Ajtag
Ajtag

The occasional one...
Location: nottingham
Member Since: 30th Mar 2001
Total posts: 445
Posted:here where i live in the uk there has been a recent surge in shootings around my area before people would occasionally be killed in a knife attack or a beating but that was quite rare but about 2 years ago people started to be able to get hold of guns. since then the armed robberies in the city has greatly increased. (i wish i knew the figures). there has been a lot of shootings recently there has been kids shot in drive by shootings and the police aren't really doing much. there has been some arrests recently and we now have a armed police force. and people have been shooting at the police station.
I would become very worried if people had the right to own guns just becouse of the recent trends that yes people may be i little more worried that others will shoot back but i would much rather people were unable to shoot each other in the first place.
anyway that is my thoughts at the moment.


There are 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who dont.
Enjoy - A


Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Bowling For Columbine made me think about the other side of the coin in the UK too.

A couple of days ago, burglar Brendon Fearon, who was shot and injured by the now jailed farmer Tony Martin during a break-in at Martin's home in August 1999, won the right to sue for a reported 15,000 in damages. Martin is currently serving a five-year sentence for manslaughter.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"


Salinger
member
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2001
Total posts: 382
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Astar:
Imagine this. People carry guns for self defense, Killing sprees rarely happen and when they do they don't get far because people defend themselves with guns.
I'd imagine that there's more evidence that killing sprees end because the shooter has turned his gun on himself. If the spree has ocured in an enclosed area, like a school, then the police do not normally enter the building through the risk of endangering more lives and their own. Moreover, they use negotiating skills to attempt to get the killer to surrender, which leads to the shooter either agreeing and leaving the building or the killer facing a realisation of what they have done and what will happen to them and then just end the situation themselves.

I don't think that people carry weapons just for self defence either, apart from criminal activities it is also a powerful tool by which they can enact their own course of justice. If you walked into your bedroom to find your wife on all fours with the postie, you're more likely to use that gun if it's in your possession and you are so raging mad you start thinking without logic.

I don't think this is purely an American problem, although I do feel as the documentary suggested, that the cultural make up of Americans certainly has its influence on the gun problem. Other countries may find themselves in similar situations in the future (like the UK) and I think it is our responsibility now to try to address the issues and attempt to safeguard against this.



A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...


Fire Monkey
member
Location: Chandlers Ford (near Soton)UK
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 176
Posted:Weird I just brought this Last night!
Hes in my all time top ten people list!
And i think i read hes at glasto!


Every ones a monkey!
Yes even you!


Aalathea
member
Location: Massachusetts, US
Member Since: 30th Oct 2002
Total posts: 80
Posted:while i liked bowling for columbine, my problem with it was that while documentaries should have a clear point, i thought this one didn't let the audience judge for themselves enough.

and if i recall correctly, he wasn't saying that guns were strictly the problem anyways. like that bit about how canada has more guns than the us or something to that effect (sorry, i saw it a while ago). the main thing was that the american culture of fear bred this sort of violence and paranoia. so maybe that americans are more apt to actually use the guns they buy on other people. i think he was trying to get beyond the simple guns are bad message.

this subjeect is so convoluted and confusing. i don't even know what i think about it anymore. all i know is that no one i know has benefitted from owning, or being in the presence of a gun outside of a range. quite the opposite in fact. but then again, i don't know anyone who would use it for hunting either.



sarah...
member
Location: Central coast / Sydney, Austra...
Member Since: 11th Apr 2002
Total posts: 339
Posted:i think the fact that he has raised the issie of guns NOT being the problem, because canadians statistically own more guns than americans do, lets the audience think for themselves. canadians own more guns.... so why do americans kill more poeple with guns? i think he left this question nicely dangling in the back of peoples minds, for them to make their own decision.
he has, however, formed a very strong opinion and has given it absolutely no room to budge. i found this with his book "stupid white men" too. it was a fantastic book and a fantastic film, and he has used valid facts in a productive way, but it is very much shown under one light. i would like to see something similar but under a different light also.


Fire... A bushmans telly



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