Forums > Advanced Staff moves > Varial spin with doubles / spinning through 2 planes at once?

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-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
I've been playing with plane changes a lot recently and last night i thought "what if the sticks move in different planes at the same time?" I dont mean atomic as the sticks constantly move through 2 planes rather than move through 1 plane each but with planes at 90 degrees (or i might do and havnt played with idea enough to realise it is really atomic) basically i mean stuff like doing a horizontal isolation at the same time as doing a vertical trammel.

So each staff is spinning through 2 planes constantly changing position. Like a varial flip in skateboarding where the board does a kickflip (rotating along the horizontal axis) while doing a 360 flip (rotating around vertical axis).

A simple example of this could be isolating vertically then rotating the isolation horizontally, i think the fun parts will be when you start adding antispins and hybrids.

Loads of this can be done easily by turning your body while spinning something in the normal 1 plane, but i think it will look better (and be harder therefore more fun) if i can work out the grip position to do these while stood still. If you are doing an antispin with varial spin you dont need to cross your arms as at the top and bottom of each antispin the sticks cross back to the same side you started on.

What do people think? is this a weird fun new thing to learn or am i just playing with atomic stuff.

"Don't do it naked!"


willworkforfoodjnrSILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)


Posted:
Having a little trouble visualising this. If the staff is on its own (no arms getting in the way or moving around complicating things) you're saying that instead of just rotating to draw a circle you'd rotate in 2 directions and get some kind of, um, 3d cross shape?

Just at the most basic, obviously you can then move it about/make it interesting.

Haha my question might well be more confusing than your initial post! Wanna show me in person at BoB?

Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!


-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
Yea thats pretty much it, I'll happily show you what i've got so far at BoB, but it isnt much as i worked it out last night smile

"Don't do it naked!"


willworkforfoodjnrSILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)


Posted:
aha, so the simplest version would be a badly done weave smile Can see it being fun when you really exagerate it though.

ooo, double plane butterflys? Wanna go home and play now

Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!


TankboySILVER Member
Resident Demolitions Expert
103 posts
Location: San Francisco, Ca, USA


Posted:
or what if you have the plane of each staff visualized in your head with a 90 degree bend in it....so basically each staff has two planes that it has the potential to be spinning in at any moment, but...

as you are spinning, wherever you have established that mental boundary (the bend in the plane), as the head of a staff approaches that bend, it must change the plane in which it is spinning.

in isolation, with one end isolating on the bend point, its a half circle in one plane, and a half circle in the other plane, but the pattern is a semi circle, or from an angle, kind of a pointy elipsey thing

IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Not sure I've completely got what you're driving at guys.

@Sandy: I'm guessing that each staff moves in two planes?
@wwffj: From my perspective in the vid below, it was a 3d cross (if looking at the ends) or a 3d diamond (if looking at the shaft)

So - allowing for poor video quality - is my headless mop doing a 'varial'?:





p.s. I would've tried something with doubles but I don't think TinyPixie would've thanked me if I cut our mop-handle in two laugh3

MynciBRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom


Posted:
thread the needle arm movements would make that an interesting doubles movemaybe crossing arms (keeping horizontal when you cros and uncross), lol the irony is you spend so long learning to do things in plane that when you try something out of plane it feels decidedly ...odd wink

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
Irinus, yea like that. With each staff moving in 2 planes (or 3 if you can get your head around it)


So whos gonna be the first to get a video up with a load of these moves on there? Probably isnt going to be me, not having a camera and all wink
EDITED_BY: -sandy- (1232659664)
EDIT_REASON: bad / wrong advice

"Don't do it naked!"


IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
As with (other) antispin stuff, I think this kind of move has great potential for glow applications... the trails would be very interesting, especially if the ends are different colours crazy

I'm going to try the move in the video with doubles, probably just a simple 'inside' (as in between the arms if that's the right term).

Now where did I put that saw?...
grin

-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
Played with this a bit more and took some pictures.

This one is a basic varial with each end doing a circle in a different plane.

Non-Https Image Link


The same move with all the lights on.

Non-Https Image Link


2 varials, wheel plane antispin, horizontal spin. Basically a inside arms trammel where you move the trammel point in a circle in front of you.

Non-Https Image Link


The same move with a longer exposure.

Non-Https Image Link


Wheel plane isolation, wall plane antispin.

Non-Https Image Link








"Don't do it naked!"


dalefBRONZE Member
dubbles extraordinaire
36 posts
Location: USA


Posted:
Quote:I dont mean atomic as the sticks constantly move through 2 planes rather than move through 1 plane each but with planes at 90 degrees (or i might do and havnt played with idea enough to realise it is really atomic) basically i mean stuff like doing a horizontal isolation at the same time as doing a vertical trammel.



Hmmm...I've been just calling this "plane bending"....but didn't really think that there was a difference with atomic/plane bending so much. Are you saying that since they never cross the same plane, its "varial"? Im kind of confused grin

The plane bending we have been doing (east coast US at least) has gotten pretty bad ass lately.

Plane bending allows infinite amount of new transitions between moves.

This is a good one:

Imagine the staffs are at the quarter points for anti spin in wall plane like this |_ (top right quadrant of the 4 point anti spin ) The vertical staff anti spins "down" into the the plane that is from your chest out. At the same time the horizontal staff anti spins or isolates to the same point (both are protruding from your chest basically) then they anti spin respectively to the mirror of the starting point. (One would anti spin "down" so its verticle and one to the side so its horizontal, to get them to the bottom left quadrant opposite of your initial point)

You can also do this with translations and regular spin to make added effect and tons of new ways to get in between.

We've been banging out new plane bend's for a while now, but haven't really talked about it because its hard to put into words (plus video doesn't do it justice)

In person it looks great though.

IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Dalef, I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're describing using the points of an antispin where the staff's vertical or horizontal to change plane? The two staves can be in different planes but each staff is in one plane at any given time if I understand (which I'm not sure that I do). white

Anyway, I bit the bullet and had a go at doing some of the tricks (I think) Sandy suggested and coming up with some ideas of my own. I also managed to find another sticky object. Here are the fruits of my labour (I had no idea it would take so long to put together) eek

Again, apologies for the quality (camera phone):





Make sense? Inspired any new ideas? Can you help me out with any of the questions that I ask at the end of the vid?

Thanks for the stimulation guys cool

willworkforfoodjnrSILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)


Posted:
mmmm liking those pics smile

Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!


animatEdBRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK


Posted:
Definitely not atomics. smile I don't think it's plane bending either. it's making one stick spin in two (or three) planes simultaneously.

Do a wall plane isolation.

Now, the point of isolation, move that in a trammel that goes perpendicular to the spin of the isolation. Basic Varial spinning. lots of other variations too.

(Sandy explained the term varial to me too. I'm not a skater, and had no idea what it meant. basically it means two things happening at once.)

I should also point out that Sandy's top two pictures are of only one staff.

Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.


IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Well-explained smile

The best shot I got of the varial you just described starts at 3:10 in the video three posts above(Varials 2) (the front view of the same trick starts at 2:40ish).

If you're having trouble, try holding the poses where the circling end is at the left or right of the circle and the trammel end is at its nearest or furthest respectively. I guess that this means that when the staff's vertical, both ends are on the same wall plane. This would be a nice opportunity to switch planes from the varial / between varials smile

*goes off to play with that idea*

IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
It was good to see Sandy do some of the above on Saturday at BoB. It answered a big question for me which was 'can they look good?'

I think they can look pretty awesome smile

Would be good to see a nice execution of some varials where both sticks are part of the same pattern (Sandy can probably do some, but we didn't get onto them on Sat frown e.g. like the second variation in the second video but with a common wheel plane axis for both hands' vertical points.

Oh, and the other fun thing to try from the trammel varial is a combination of some of the things discussed above i.e. switching between varials at points where the planes of both ends coincide grin

willworkforfoodjnrSILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)


Posted:
What, like atomic varials?

Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!


IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Yes, but done better than in the vid!

willworkforfoodjnrSILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)


Posted:
Not had chance to look at the vid yet (silly firewall) but I've been messing a bit with the stuff you and Sandy were showing me on Sat, gonna have a proper go tomorrow night. Might even film it if I remember.

Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!


IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Cool! I'll be checking here when I get back from Sp@ tomorrow night smile

*realism kicks in*

ok, maybe weds night

astonSILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa


Posted:
Nice work. Looks like something new and interesting.

And nice photos. wink

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
Been thinking a little more about possibles. I think what you were saying about both sticks being part of the same pattern is right, like they both share a common horizontal circle but have different wheel plane circles, or share H. circle but 1 wheel 1 wall circle (all this is using the basic varial pattern).

Havnt dont that much since BoB, kinda been recovering. I was filming today and wanted to get some varials down on tape but ended up not even having enough time to get everything i was supposed to shoot done so it didnt happen. Tomorrow is spinjam so will work on stuff then.

And i've just realised, where the censored is meg? Geeky staff talk and shes nowhere to be seen. How very slack grin

"Don't do it naked!"


IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Ah, I think she's watched the videos so I'm thinking she's either:

1) Curious to see how the idea develops
2) Working on the idea for a vid (I'm hoping it's this one, preferably using her glowstaves)
3) Thinking the idea's pants and is too nice to say anything and too busy spinning
4) Doing none of the above to prove me wrong tongue2

@MCP: Looking forward to your input when you're ready / have time smile

Hey Sandy, that move you showed me on Sat (hybrid, one hand = one-beat wall-plane isolation other hand = wall-plane antispin) works nicely as a varial when the pinkyside of the antispinning hand does a wheel-plane circle. this also means that the thumbside doesn't get as much horizontal travel as in the base trick, which I think looks interesting smile

mcpPLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom


Posted:
Yeah, I do have better things to do...

But since I have to come in here and explain all this to you guys...

So next on the dumb name list: varial.

One end of the staff spins in a horizontal plane, the other spins in a vertical plane.

There's your explaination. It's not plane bending/breaking or atomics. (in the traditional sense)

Poi, Poi can only spin in one plane at any discrete time. But here we're treating the staff as a double ended prop, and having each end in a seperate plane.

This is also the case for 'normal' spinning, like the figure of eight, there's a plane for each end of the staff, but we're trying to get to the ideal situation, and compress both planes into one. ('Clean' planes)

If you think of a plane as a hoop / plate / coin, round flat surface of any kind, then the so called 'varial' is to have the hoops symmetrically bisecting each other... like you had pushed one hoop into the other to make a sphere shape. The diameter of the hoops is the unit length of your staff, and so is the distance from the far curves of the hoop that don't touch... I'm not sure if this makes the hoops ovals or not.

So then you can move this construction around into any orientation / combinations of planes.

But you can also slide the hoops through each other, as long as their edges still touch. Till you get to the extreme case where the hoops are like a corner. 90 degree angle between them, just touching at the curve.

You can spin a staff in these double planes. As soon as the hoops aren't touching, then the 'varial' is impossible, requiring the staff to be flexible, or stretchable.

As for the case with the 'corner' hoops where one is lying flat on the ground, the other touching the side of it, vertically, I think it's also possible to rotate that hoop to any orientation and still be able to spin in the two planes. Haven't tested it yet thou.

But it is possible to spin in two disconnected planes. Like a one beat. Two planes, both parallel, and totally seperate. But unless your one beat is just a fingerspin, then planes are never full size... the circles that the ends are drawing, the hoops if you will, never have the diameter of the staff, they're always smaller than the unit length.

(yes, this is taking the unit circle to be the length of the prop, not the length from your hand to one end of the prop.)

So if you want to describe full unit circles, you have to have the planes bisecting, and those circles / hoops touching.

Anyway, if you watch the stick, it's still solid and not moving in two planes at once, probably the center is kind static, but just gyroing about crazily. Of course you can't bend the stick to two planes at once. Another way to think about it, is of spinning in a MOVING plane.

so in the 'varial' case, the moving plane, is moving between the two planes, horizontal and vertical (or whatever) continuously. (at the same speed as the staff moves obviously.)

Same with the corner hoops / planes situation. The plane is just moving from the floor to vertical and then falling back down again.

What I've been working on? None of this. It might have some interesting applications, but I've been doing contact.

I have been working on a moving plane a little, trying to get the staff to rotate in the plane of a coin spin... when the coin is woddling and about to drop to the floor... only cos I saw someone do it with clubs on a video. and it looked cool.

And no, LAB 3 won't be 3D.

and no, I didn't discuss doing two hybrids at once with 'varial' spinnning, or isolations or anti-spins or stuff.

Should be possible to figure out the ultimate goal of doing a one beat, but having the ends go around in mirror instead of in parallel thou. Which would be fun. Homework, off you go.

Off to do some real work...
EDITED_BY: mcp (1233025017)

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
Well....yea. That pretty much sums up what we've been saying. well done meg tongue2

Quite like this idea of moving the circles so only the corners are touching though, gives me ideas of each end tracing a figure 8 in bisecting planes, that could look nice with doubles at opposites.

Irinus, will try that one later tonight, Ed will be there too so may well come up with some new ideas between us grin

"Don't do it naked!"


mcpPLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom


Posted:
Originally Posted By: -sandy-Well....yea. That pretty much sums up what we've been saying. well done meg tongue2


Yeah? Cos it seems to me like you haven't been saying anything that makes sense. I only understood what you were talking about from the picture. And it seemed like everyone else got the wrong impression too. Including dale and tommy.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
Fairy snuff. tbh i figured the pictures were fairly clear and since tommy uploaded a video doing pretty much what i was on about before i put the pics up i figured it was clear enough.

Thanks for clarifying all that for us though, i dont have the best writing style as im dyslexic and find it hard to put whats in my head into words, thats why i thought pictures would be better.

There is no real need to come in and basically condescend to everyone though. We know your good, but some of us mere mortals can have an idea or two as well.

"Don't do it naked!"


animatEdBRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK


Posted:
Varial spinning opens up rails...

Yum.

Stick became liquid.

grin

Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.


-sandy-BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom


Posted:
For some reason i havnt been able to log into hop for about a week, seems to work ok now though.

Ed's rail things are sweeeet, its basically taking the idea of moving the circles so they touch at the corners like an L and only doing half the circle. In this way you can move from plane to plane really fluidly (is that a word?).

Im still trying to nail the one where the thumb side end of the sticks draw a wheel plane figure 8 in front and pinkie side draws a horizontal circle (seperate circle on each side for each stick).

"Don't do it naked!"


IrinusBRONZE Member
enthusiast
222 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom


Posted:
Someone in Bristol must have a camera!

I've been a bit stuck for progress (finding it hard to stick to the 'rails' and avoid getting wrapped up with doubles) but I'm also finding the plane-changing angle fruitful.