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Forums > Social Discussion > The voluntary human extinction movement

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Posted:I'll be interested in hearing people's reactions to this one smile.



 Written by : VHEMT website





VHEMT (pronounced vehement) is a movement not an organization. It's a movement advanced by people who care about life on planet Earth. We're not just a bunch of misanthropes and anti-social, Malthusian misfits, taking morbid delight whenever disaster strikes humans. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Voluntary human extinction is the humanitarian alternative to human disasters.



We don't carry on about how the human race has shown itself to be a greedy, amoral parasite on the once-healthy face of this planet. That type of negativity offers no solution to the inexorable horrors which human activity is causing.



Rather, The Movement presents an encouraging alternative to the callous exploitation and wholesale destruction of Earth's ecology.



As VHEMT Volunteers know, the hopeful alternative to the extinction of millions of species of plants and animals is the voluntary extinction of one species: Homo sapiens... us.



Each time another one of us decides to not add another one of us to the burgeoning billions already squatting on this ravaged planet, another ray of hope shines through the gloom.



When every human chooses to stop breeding, Earth's biosphere will be allowed to return to its former glory, and all remaining creatures will be free to live, die, evolve (if they believe in evolution), and will perhaps pass away, as so many of Nature's "experiments" have done throughout the eons.









Website is

www.vhemt.org


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Posted: Written by :Dr_Birgit


I won't click on the site because I've been on a similar one before, Mucky has taken care of commenting on some of the issues and I don't want to waste my time reading that nonsense again.

If they want to not breed, fine (I'm with willworkforfood though). Unfortunately some of them have also turned missionary and tried to tell off friends of mine for having a child and being horrible to the planet.

I'm sure they address the issue somewhere, but rather than waste energy and food and oxygen by having a website and existing, if they were serious about saving the planet they should just buy a gun and shoot some people, including themselves. Who knows, maybe they can start a successful cult if they use public settings.




I can understand your paranoia, believe me! Fortunately this one isn't brain-washy or cult-like.


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Mucky
SILVER Member since Apr 2008

Mucky

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Posted: Written by :FireTom


I agree - walking a non-violent path and to surrender ones own existence might be a sign of highest possible evolution (just as spiritual masters don't just die, but do leave their bodies - like some willingly starve themselves to death, overcome the primal instinct of survival).



Just because a spiritual master *can* do it, doesn't mean that's the highest level of evolution. It bothers me when people assume that physicality and spirituality are somehow disconnected, and that spirituality is the higher of the two forms of existence. A spiritual master who neglects his body is still neglecting a wonderful gift, just as, say, a bodybuilder who abhors education would be wasting one of his capacities. Committing suicide by voluntary starvation may seem like a high ideal, but in fact a spiritual master accepts and cares for his body instead of rejecting it. FireTom, I agree with most of your post but I don't think that that qualifies as a higher level of evolution. Inquisitiveness and curiosity are also primal instincts in humans that are associated with spirituality, but would eliminating them in favor of training the body equate with higher evolution? Sorry to branch off topic, just throwing that perspective out there...



 Written by

Looking around in nature (I guess it's Lemmings) suicide on a large scale is a feasible option when the conditions of the environment does endanger the survival of the entire species. Mankind is not even remotely at this point.



Minor point here, lemmings do not intentionally commit mass suicide. Their migratory instincts sometimes take them to places where it is difficult or impossible to survive, but their goal is to expand/move their territory, not eliminate themselves for the survival of their brethren.

 Written by :psyrush


So I have a bad day, get a gun, and go on a killing spree. Oh shucks. Some green-skinned dude living on an earth-like planet ten million light years from here will never care. Who cares, we're all going to die eventually anyway, it's not like it matters. </sarcasm>. Do you see my point?




PsyRush, I don't think the argument is that if nobody will care in a million years we should do whatever we want. I think the argument is more like the fact that we have the potential to commit a crime (such as the potential to extinguish all life) does not mean we should punish ourselves by eliminating ourselves.

For instance, young drivers are statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal auto accident while driving under the influence; should *all* young drivers have their licences taken away, or put in prison, because of that potential?


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

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Posted:I'm not paranoid, I just have more interesting people to waste my interweb time on...

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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natasqi


natasqi

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Posted:I came across this website a few years ago.. from your quotations it does not seem to have changed.

I am curious as to why some people are so angry and alarmed at such ideas. When I first read this website I thought, "What a great idea". I had already decided not to give birth myself and thought that many of my own feelings where echoed by those in the movement.
Though it may seem pointless to some, as the numbers who hear about the group will be small, with those who live by it's ideals even smaller, I thought it was nice to know that others agree with me that there are too many humans on Earth, and that they have decided on a nice peaceful way to do their bit.

They are not a cult, they're not advocating killing or death, they don't have meetings, they don't press their idea on others.
They simply take up a small peace of the inter-web, to be found by those who are of the same persuasion.


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

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Posted:I think it's a slightly existentialist question - if you're unhappy with something changeable, try and change it or shut up (or in the words of some philosophers go kill yourself). If you think human existence harms the planet and that's really important to you, then telling others to not have children while continuing your own existence is more than a bit hypocritical.

You say they're not pressing their ideas on others, but I've never met one who hasn't tried that. Fair enough, that doesn't prove they don't exist, but it's a bit like not getting annoyed at Jehova's Witnesses at your doorstep!


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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Posted: Written by biggrinr_Birgit



If you think human existence harms the planet and that's really important to you, then telling others to not have children while continuing your own existence is more than a bit hypocritical.







No, telling others not to have children while having children yourself would be hypocritical.



Also, do you really get a lot of people pushing their non-breeding ideas onto you? confused Things must be different in bristol. Even with all the environmental talk etc. i rarely even hear the subject of overpopulation even brought up, and coming across VHEMT was the first time i'd heard of people not breeding to save the planet.


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

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Posted:Psyrush, what about China?

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Mucky
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Posted:PsyRush, that's the problem with the idea; nobody likes to have other people's beliefs thrown at them, and VHEMT (I've been spelling the acronym wrong in previous posts; my apologies) doesn't do that. However, their plan entails that *all* humans must adhere to it, which means that if they *don't* throw their beliefs at you, all that happens is a small handful of people don't have children, which won't even put a dent in local populations, never mind worldwide.

Incidentally, anybody ever see Children of Men? Good movie, that. smile


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:They are trying to "change" it Birgit,if the "it" they see is harm done by the human species, they are trying to make people aware that breeding is increasing that harm, and not having children is an effective way of stopping it...

And I certainly have never seen one ( A VHEMT follower) on my doorstep or in my bedroom pressuring me either way!

**Though i kinda like jehovahs witnesses, cause i respect that if one actually beleived everyone else was going to die a permanent death unless they receive the word of god, i too would be trying to act on it, save them. To take such abuse while doing it shows much care and determination on their part. Most people dont act on their beliefs, too lazy. I find it interesting that they do, and usually not in an aggressive way either.They just stand there, or ring doorbells, offering, not insisting.interesting, I respect that. Some of them are well up for a good debate, too, which can be fun when you are bored

So, while i disagree with both these groups and many others wink I think it is good that they are acting on their beliefs, in a way that does not harm others. Just by educating us by pointing out we have a CHOICE--breed or not-- without making the common assumption that having children and continuing the species is a true and necessary sociological or biological imperative;just by raising this question they make a difference for some people. Expanded awareness.

We can make a conscious, compassionate ,big scale considerate choices, considering long term impacts other than simply our own individual needs...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

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Posted:Hmmmm. I think the only people that don't realise they have a choice whether to breed or not to breed aren't in a position to be influenced by such a website.

Also, babies aren't individual needs. Nobody NEEDS a baby. A baby means responsibility and care and costs a lot of money and time.

The harm that's being done to the planet is not about to stop even if nobody had children now because there are already 6 billion people using oil and gas and radioactivity for energy and exploiting nature for food and trees.

I've never once had Jehova's witnesses on my doorstep, either. However, I've seen VEHMT followers rudely attack people with children on forums and in person. Given how small that movement is I'd say it's a significant number of VEHMTers being aggressive about communicating their views.

Seriously, I do think a public suicide would make more of an impression and increase awareness on a bigger level than that website. But I for one am happy to let people live (and have children if they choose to). Who knows, maybe one day we'll need young people to build space ships or rebuild some of the nature we've destroyed.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:oh, i dont know, i think for the most part having children is a complete expression of perceived needs on the part of the mother and or couple-- need to have their genes carry on, need to fit in, need to have unconditional love,need to carry the family name, need to hold a relationship together, ... so many emotional and cultural needs push us to procreation.

I do agree with you that an internet site is not likely to reach the people that need the most shift in consciousness around this issue though!

It seems to me that not having children is a completely different thing then extinguishing life, yours, or someone elses. I am not sure why you dont think so? It is like comaring apples and whales, so I wont even go there, really, except to say the attention raised by mass suicide would not serve their educational/awareness purpose at all.

I have never, ever met someone from this group out in the world confronting people, I am sorry you have. That is disturbing.

I dont think, even if a whole massive evengelical bunch of people start following this belief system, that we have any need to fear a shortage of young people to build space ships or plant trees... We may have a shortage of materials to do it with and conducive environment to do it on...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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PinkNigel


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Posted: Written by :BansheeCat


need to have their genes carry on, need to fit in, need to have unconditional love,need to carry the family name, need to hold a relationship together, ...



...Need to access social housing, need to claim bigger welfare payments...

I worked in a school recently where most of the girls expressed "ambitions" that basically went "I'm going to get pregnant so I get a flat" (UK council housing provision is allocated on a 'points' basis, you get more points for being a parent. There are other ways to fiddle the system too, like being "homeless", so said teen girl gets pregnant, gets her mother to tell the council she's been thrown out of home - hey presto, enough points to leap to the top of the list and thus get a council-owned flat).

And sorry, but "need to hold a relationship together" is right up there among the very worst reasons for breeding.

Me, I don't think VHEMT need to go promoting their ideas, I reckon we're headed that way anyway:
Western trends are for bright folk to be having maybe one child per couple, somewhere in the couple's 30's. Meanwhile, the dim folk are having 5 or 6 kids per couple by the time they're 23 (OK, some of this might be extremes-for-effect). What happens long term? Bright folk die out, humankind regresses. [/deliberately provocative]


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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natasqi


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Posted: Written by :Dr_Birgit

I've never once had Jehova's witnesses on my doorstep, either. However, I've seen VEHMT followers rudely attack people with children on forums and in person. Given how small that movement is I'd say it's a significant number of VEHMTers being aggressive about communicating their views.



Really? Because as it says on the website, it's not a group, only an idea. And the website says that you are not to press your ideas on others, that they don't believe in 'force feeding ideas at early ages' so hence the people who you call VEHMT followers do not abide by the idea, are hence not followers, but people who believe in a different cause.

So these people are human extinctioners, not VEHMTers, even if they call themselves VEHMTers.


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Sethis
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Sethis

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Posted:@ PinkNigel: Banshee cat is giving examples of what other people might consider a reason for reproducing, not claiming that they are good reasons.



@ people claiming "This argument is null and void because we can't possibly exterminate all life on this planet", you seem to have a logic gap somewhere. The VHEMT aren't saying "We want to wipe out the planet" they're saying "we want to make 1 species (us) extinct, for the good of the planet as a whole". Are you seriously saying that we're incapable of doing serious harm to this planet just because we can't wipe out *all* the single celled organisms? That it's ok for us to continue as we are doing, because even if we make this into a radioactive, toxic filled pit, wiping out 80% of the planets Biomass and probably ourselves, then at least some molluscs on the bottom of the sea will survive?



@ Birgit, no-one in Western society needs a child. However in impoverished areas, with subsistence farming identical to Britain's pre-Industrial Revolution economy, multiple children are necessary because it is cheaper to raise a child than it is to pay someone to work for you every year. There is more work to be done than just 2 people can accomplish in a day, and the infant mortality rate is such that you need to have about 4 children to have good odds that one will survive into adulthood.



@ VHEMT, I believe you all to be cowards of the worst kind. Rather than trying to FIX what is broken (by taking jobs in sectors such as education, government, "Green" organizations and raising your own children with your ideals of societal ethics), you're just going to give up and float away crying about "What a pity it is" and "It was a foregone conclusion". The future is not written; Humanity can still turn around and surprise everyone (including itself) by taking a responsible attitude to power production, economics and violence. I don't see it as likely, but possible (maybe when the petrol runs out for good eek ).

EDITED_BY: Sethis (1216718997)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Birgit
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Birgit

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Posted:Natasqi. :rolleyes:. I'm not here to pick nits with you. I have stated that I have been on a SIMILAR website before and wasn't on that one. The reason for that being that the people I've mentioned were being idiots. It's nice that those who are acting like that are automatically excluded from being considered a follower of the VHEMT idea, but unfortunately the people who put up that "rule" for something that's "an idea not a group" won't know and the "offenders" won't care.

Sethis, true, I did have Western society in mind. The subsistence farmers are those I'd have put in my "not in a position to be influenced by a website" group. I also couldn't agree more with your last statement.

Bansheecat, not having children is a completely different thing then extinguishing life. Exactly. I thought that if the aim was human extinction, that would be the way to go.

See, to me the whole thing seems pointless. Either you try to make a difference, in which case you DO push your ideas further because otherwise as you've stated there'll still not be a lack of young people. I didn't necessarily recommend a mass suicide, but if someone's SO convinced that humans should stop procreating, and thinks it important for the sake of the planet, AND wants to increase awareness it would at least show people they're serious and not just as Sethis says people who are too cowardly to take responsibility.

Bah. I should stop this now, it's just annoying me.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Posted: Written by :natasqi


I am curious as to why some people are so angry and alarmed at such ideas.




Probably because procreating is one of our deepest insticts. After all it's what evolution itself is centred upon, everything we are is a result of millions of years of refined procreation. So it's understandable that the idea that we now live in a overpopulated world where we can't act on these instincts isn't exactly appealing, so unappealing to some that they'll deny it with all the force they have, even resorting to ad hominem attacks, name calling and claiming proponents should kill themselves. I'd say this is the reason VHEMT will never work.

This quote sums the above up perfectly:

 Written by biggrinr_Birgit


it's just annoying me




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Posted: Written by :Sethis

The future is not written; Humanity can still turn around and surprise everyone (including itself) by taking a responsible attitude to power production, economics and violence. I don't see it as likely, but possible (maybe when the petrol runs out for good eek ).





I'm well aware that there are lots of conscientious people out there who probably could solve the world's problems given the resources, but sadly its never these people who have the power. Who's the most powerful man in the world? George Bush FFS. If u look throughout history it's an endless nightmare of corrupt governments, dictators, monarchies and churches. If you can think of any examples where the people in power aren't psychos, please, i'm all ears smile.


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Doc Lightning
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Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by :PsyRush


So I have a bad day, get a gun, and go on a killing spree. Oh shucks. Some green-skinned dude living on an earth-like planet ten million light years from here will never care. Who cares, we're all going to die eventually anyway, it's not like it matters. </sarcasm>. Do you see my point?



Oh yeah. Fair enough, I suppose.

Although...why?

I mean, Nihilism followed to its logical conclusion would actually arrive at your point above. If nothing really matters, why not walk around carving people's faces up with a machete? Seems arbitrary to me to impose such a limit to a philosophy. Not that other philosophies don't have similar holes, but it is interesting to search out such inconsistencies and holes in various philosophies.

I guess that's why my philosophy is humanism, which is that we should do what is best for Humanity since it's pretty impossible to guess what is best for everything else.

Give you an example: if humans die, all dairy cows would be dead within a week. They are a completely domesticated species and they are wholly incapable of caring for themselves without humans around to milk them, feed them, etc. So is it fair for us to kill all the moo-cows by dying ourselves?


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Posted: Written by :Doc Lightning


Give you an example: if humans die, all dairy cows would be dead within a week. They are a completely domesticated species and they are wholly incapable of caring for themselves without humans around to milk them, feed them, etc. So is it fair for us to kill all the moo-cows by dying ourselves?



Maybe they should voluntarily not breed as well! *scratches head*.


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Mucky
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Posted: Written by :Doc Lightning


Give you an example: if humans die, all dairy cows would be dead within a week. They are a completely domesticated species and they are wholly incapable of caring for themselves without humans around to milk them, feed them, etc. So is it fair for us to kill all the moo-cows by dying ourselves?



Doc, I think the VHEMT answer to that would be, "They were domesticated by people and many live under deplorable conditions, and even the majority of those that don't rely on non-natural grazing pastures, and thus constitute another branch of human interference with the natural ecosystem. That those cows should die is unfortunate, but will be a first step toward regaining the natural balance."

Or, if you don't like that, "If the VHEMT plan is enacted, it will take several years for the last humans to die off, affording us enough time to see all domesticated animals live to the end of their natural life, but without forcing them to reproduce."


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natasqi


natasqi

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Posted:Hey Dr_Birgit, don't get snarky or annoyed! Everyone here is being friendly and encouraging gentle debate...

I said the previous because it's like damning communism or fascism because you don't like Hitler or Mao... This one person isn't necessarily representitve of the group as a whole.

 Written by :Dr_Birgit


See, to me the whole thing seems pointless. Either you try to make a difference, in which case you DO push your ideas further because otherwise as you've stated there'll still not be a lack of young people. I didn't necessarily recommend a mass suicide, but if someone's SO convinced that humans should stop procreating, and thinks it important for the sake of the planet, AND wants to increase awareness it would at least show people they're serious and not just as Sethis says people who are too cowardly to take responsibility.




Increasing awareness is not the same as pushing your ideas on someone or criticising people for acting against your beliefs.

People who follow the ideals of VEHMT may well be increasing awareness by blogging about it and discussing the ideas with friends, or maybe posting about it on forums, i.e. HOP.
They may also be involved in other organisations who they believe incourage others to think about the state of the world and the future, such as Red Cross, MPH or Oaktree.

Saying that people are too cowardly for not pressing ideas on people and rude for doing so... There are many campaigns that do not use either tactic. It is about awareness and education, informed choices.


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Doc Lightning
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Posted: Written by :Mucky


Doc, I think the VHEMT answer to that would be, "They were domesticated by people and many live under deplorable conditions, and even the majority of those that don't rely on non-natural grazing pastures, and thus constitute another branch of human interference with the natural ecosystem. That those cows should die is unfortunate, but will be a first step toward regaining the natural balance."




Actually, I was discussing Nihilism, not the VHEMT. Which is OT.

I still think that the VHEMT site is a clever joke. I'm having a good deal of trouble believing it is a serious philosophy.


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


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Posted:If those, conscious enough would stop breeding and only those ignorant continue to reproduce... well the whole thing to me sounds like: "I'm not going to vote - but I'm not going to like the new government."

I only can say that especially those (spiritually) conscious and bright people, who do care for the planet should get children and enter the baby-matrix.

Could be fun, too. wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Posted: Written by :FireTom


If those, conscious enough would stop breeding and only those ignorant continue to reproduce... well the whole thing to me sounds like: "I'm not going to vote - but I'm not going to like the new government."




People who say that, usually don't vote because they either don't think there are any parties worth voting for, or because the parties worth voting for don't have a chance of getting in.


 Written by :FireTom


I only can say that especially those (spiritually) conscious and bright people, who do care for the planet should get children and enter the baby-matrix.

Could be fun, too. wink



reminds me of this pic biggrin


Non-Https Image Link


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fanged_angel
BRONZE Member since Jul 2007

fanged_angel

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Posted:my idea to solve this particular situation would be to sterilise everybody at birth and not let them become fertile until theyve passed a test or something.

think about it would people really be as unnecessarily aggresive if they had no cajones? Hell i know id worry about my safety alot less if all those hormonally fueled idiots which seem to be breeding at an increasingly alarming rate and not really supporting the economy, environment or their fellow man where all turned into eunichs


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by :fanged_angel


my idea to solve this particular situation would be to sterilise everybody at birth and not let them become fertile until theyve passed a test or something.




Well, that was the Nazi eugenics idea. In reality, it might not be a terrible idea in theory. People automatically rubber-stamp anything the Nazis did as bad, but the fact is that, mass murder and stuff aside, the Nazis also did a lot of good things.

The problem with eugenics is a problem of execution. In theory, preventing certain people from breeding is probably a good idea. The problem is: who gets to decide who breeds and who doesn't? What measures do we use? Should having asthma disqualify you? Mental retardation? A heart condition? Your socioeconomic status? Your education? Your race?

If we can't even design an IQ test that accurately predicts something, how are we going to decide for people whether they should reproduce?

The problem is that eugenics is, at best, prone to a lot of bad science. What seems like a good idea now may turn out to be a terrible idea later. And at worst, it is prone to all sorts of abuse, propaganda, and pseudoscience.

Now here's an idea I could get behind: in order to have a child, you must have submitted a petition for a permit at least nine months prior to the birth of a full-term child. In order to qualify for a permit you must demonstrate that you have the financial means to raise a child, nothing more. This would ensure that every child is a wanted child. I maintain that a very large portion of the problems encountered in society today, especially the existence of the inner-city ghetto, can be attributed to unwanted teenage pregnancies.

The only issue is how you enforce this....


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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hamamelis
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

hamamelis

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Posted:Demonstrating the financial means I'm not convinced would be a good idea- I have some truly poor friends who have a much loved and wanted baby, but their lifestyle is largely not within the official economy- they do a lot of informal trading and growing food/collecting wild food, and buy very little- on paper it wouldn't look like they could raise a child, but knowing them I don't think they'll have any problems they can't get round..

It could be abused as a way to discriminate against alternative lifestyles..

I do think they current practical test for parenthood can be a bit too easy to be the sole qualification though- and the fact we now have access to reversible means of preventing pregnancy than the permanent means used by the nazis, it is a different prospect..


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If that's okay with you?

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FireTom


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Posted:*COUGHS* .... confused

 Written by : Mike

People automatically rubber-stamp anything the Nazis did as bad, but the fact is that, mass murder and stuff aside, the Nazis also did a lot of good things.



Not stamping everything as bad, but "a lot of good things" must have slipped my attention in history class and the books I've been reading about it... Just out of curiosity - should we start a thread "the good deeds of the Nazi regime" and you'll let me know what exactly you'd be referring to? umm wink

A child might cost about a quarter million Euros (gross average) in two decades of raising it. Funny though that many siblings are usually to be found in lower educational families. Those with higher education 'usually' get just one or two kids and them pretty late, around their late 30s.

The next funny thing is that there is a great misunderstanding, believing that low-key educated parents should not breed as much: there are many genius' born to simple parents and many dodo's to a Nobel Prize elite.

It's (again) not gray scale...

wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by :FireTom


*COUGHS* .... confused

 Written by : Mike

People automatically rubber-stamp anything the Nazis did as bad, but the fact is that, mass murder and stuff aside, the Nazis also did a lot of good things.



Not stamping everything as bad, but "a lot of good things" must have slipped my attention in history class and the books I've been reading about it... Just out of curiosity - should we start a thread "the good deeds of the Nazi regime" and you'll let me know what exactly you'd be referring to? umm wink



Mass construction and civic works projects that employed hundreds of thousands and completely revitalized Germany's economy, for one thing.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


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Posted:...which directly led to seizure of private property and the beginning of WWII, as the Nazi government had insufficient funds to finance all this employment... shrug

Which directly brings us back on topic:

In theory many ideas have good intent, practically it's not quite as easy. Certainly it's a very strange idea for the currently dominating species of this planet, a race with so many opportunities, to think about voluntary extinction.

Why? Just "why"?

Maybe it's like with suicide: a lack of trust in (ones own) destiny...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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