Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I was wondering what people thought of the German language reform

I don't speak Germanin any form, but I find it interesting that there are official changes coming in.

Does anyone know if the changes are becoming more in line with practical grammar that is actually used in speech? Reading the article it seems not. And I'm not sure how that is going to work. I'm all for language change; it's something that happens naturally. But to change language artificially, well, I'm not sure that's going to work because it's a forced change.

However like I said, I don't speak German, so I'm interested in what both the native speakers and the second-language speakers think.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:All i can possibly add is that learning Italian, taught me a lot about English language, and how bad it can be. IT also made me realise how much English I did not know before.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:That's a really common thing actually; that people learn about their own language while learning their second

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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drvariety
drvariety

member
Location: Mission viejo CA
Member Since: 10th Mar 2006
Total posts: 75
Posted:well there goes three years of learning german....

There is nothing to be afraid of. Virtual reality will eventually rehabilitate your mind and eventually your body. Everything will be allright, i promise. Just concentrate. Try some music.

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:si ma ora sembre dopo due anni lingua italiano e il mio primo e l'inglese secondo.


now it seems that after 2 years that italian is my first language.. and english my second.

So if you read what i say and seems a bit odd so to speak... then you know why.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:I could actually understand that italia from 4 years of latin I took 15 years ago eek I can understand how that helped your english as latin helped mine considerably.

ditto drvariety my 5 years will go out the window then ubblol


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:The article isn't very informative. But the language reform, as I know of it, is more of spelling than of grammar in the first place. It has some good ideas, for example replacing the by ss in many cases so that it is clear when to use which, but others, well, just don't get me started. As for changing rules for commata, that's just the worst thing they did because it just puts down the standard of people's writing so much frown

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Laihia
Laihia

member
Location: Groningen
Member Since: 19th Jul 2006
Total posts: 162
Posted:In Germany it is indeed the spelling that is changing. The words will be pronounced the same way as before. Some words will be written as one and others will be seperated by a comma.

It's more or less the same as the grammar change in Holland. The word "pancake" became in grammar "panScake". But it hasn't changed in the language, it is still pronounced as pancake.


Sunshine or rain, it's not anymore the same...

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joshgomera
joshgomera

member
Location: here
Member Since: 30th Oct 2005
Total posts: 155
Posted:hi i-m german..what to say about this??

live is going on in germay..some things chjanced but you don-t here the difference..you just see it if you write some words.like old DELPHIN now delfin or we have this nice
sharp "S" written like "" spoken like double "s"
now if you have the word "Nuschale" you write it i hope (!!!) -nutskin ??
"Nussschale" this was a mistake if i learned german at school..
anyway. now i learned some english,french, and spanish,,as well i-ve a german dialect with some different words..

i don-t care about this ..
i-m still alive ubbrollsmile ubblol ubblol

but if foreign people have to learn new german grammar..i think thats hard...if mostly all ,especially old germans,don-t understand and know about this chance

love
from hamburg

josh
"
"und Deutsch war schon immer eine furchtbar schwere Sprache.."


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:As stated: German grammar remains pretty much the same. What changes/d is German spelling, the use of capital letters, combined words and the use of punctuation (comma and the like).

Many ("germanized") words derive from Latin and French and some Greek (mostly science) - reason for that being partial occupation of "Germany" by the Romans, close ties between Germany and France and (foremost) that German as a language was not accepted by the ruling class and clerics far into the 16th and even 17th century. It was regarded "peasant language" - not "pleasant"...

Royals and clerics spoke either French or Latin. However it started with Luthers translation of the Bible into German (* the Bible was not available in French or English or any other European language before, as the clerics demanded their right to be the only ones to be able to interpret the word of god - a privilege priests have demanded for themselves in all kinds of religions throughout time). After Luther translated the Bible and questioned the authority of the roman catholic church (followed by devastating secular wars), German became more widely accepted. (Yeah well, Germany have been troublemakers throughout time and led the last European revolution which ended the communist totalitarian regime, however)

Now we are facing the problem that words are written different than they are spelled. Many languages face this...

It would be similar to English changing like:

ridiculous -> ridiculus
disguise -> disgise
completely -> completly

Or the French finally admitting that they simply can't pronounce "Hotel" in a "proper" way wink

Next problem is that more than a third of German students do have a different ethnic background and it's vogue to oppose anything "German". "It's a fu**ed up country with a fu**ed up climate and a narrow minded mindset!"... (funny enough I find enough immigrants who happily adjust a lot more than necessary). But since Germany has "lost" most of it's "pride" during WWI + II and tries to make it up to anyone (but itself), since students complained so much about how hard it is to learn German - efforts have been taken to raise the grades of students by lowering the scientific standards of language.

This has been highly critizised by intellectuals and the "reform" has gotten "reformed" a few times. The intellectual and older generation will continue "proper" spelling, the press is adapting a "light" version of the reform, if students use the old spelling it's mostly accepted (for some period of time).

But then a "Photographer" will become a "Fotograf" ( wink it already is) a "Couch" will be a "Kautsch", etc.

Personally I think it's sad. Not that I oppose change, but German is a beautiful language. As any other language it has significantly changed over the past centuries (much like English... read Shakespeare) and it will change more. Why forcing it? And what about ", , "? What about those letters (like the "sharp" )...

Over the years I started to appreciate German language and now can even listen to it in music (if it's HipHop and Rap or anything BUT greasy popmusic). 'ts funny that the same phrase sung in English sounds not half as ridiculous to my ear, as if it would sound in German... shrug "C'mon baby, baby yeah, yeah..." But mybe I'm just a Pirate.... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:The song thing is because you can block it out, even if you understand it. I notice it every time I hear people talking about stupid nonsense, say in the supermarket or at airports. If it's English, French or Italian, I may understand it or most of it, but I don't have to listen, whereas if it's German I can't help but notice it.

As for the reform, I'm all for reforms. I think English spelling should also be reformed, there is no need to have similar spelling but different pronunciation for many words such as hear/bear, out/you, wild/wilderness etc and it does confuse people. But IF a reform than a proper reform and not a half-arsed attempt at making things right for everyone and ultimately helping noone as what has been happening.

The press rightly think that it is not a good idea and it is stupid to follow it. But in blocking it, they are making the reform even worse - if everyone tried to go along with it, at least in 5 years or so people could pick up from where it ended, check which bits worked well and continue from there. But the newspapers seemed to have nothing better to do than to go along with the reform and then, just a month or so before the trial period was over and the changes were mandatory, change back and go "in your face, won't do it anymore, na na na naanaa!" like some 5-year-old child. Which was made worse because they were some of the better/more serious newspapers and magazines, and people listen to their opinions.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by: Birgit


I think English spelling should also be reformed, there is no need to have similar spelling but different pronunciation for many words such as hear/bear, out/you, wild/wilderness etc and it does confuse people.




hee hee! i'm learning about why those words are spelt the same but sound different at the moment!
And actually, although people don't realise it, things like "wild" and "wilderness" even though they sound different, they're not as confusing as they first appear because the indicate relationship.

But we're not talking about english here tongue


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Just one of many examples why reforms are a good idea if done properly. It's not a question of whether there are some rules based on word roots 1500 years old that made sense at the time and still serve as an explanation, but of how relevant they still are to the current use/spelling/pronunciation. Language is dynamic after all. Of course you don't have to make an official spelling reform every 5 years, but some of the English spelling could do with a reform (and that's not just me as a non-native speaker saying it wink).

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:English 1500 years ago was closer to German than anything else wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Aurinko
Aurinko

hello!
Location: Amsterdam
Member Since: 1st Aug 2006
Total posts: 1034
Posted:since that spelling-reform, my German got so wobbly. I just ain't sure any more whether words are old-German, new-German, middle-German (there were two spelling-reforms, if I remember it correctly), nor German at all and what I am supposed to do with it"ignore it, play along, protest, be creative with the language, use many foreign words, not use any foreign words at all
*sigh* It's hopeless


a swapped test-playboy, set free by NOn, idolizing the tea fairy; Dragosani spiritual freedom agreement reached 18th Sept 2006

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:What Aurinko says smile

We actually got the Lord's Prayer or something similar from 800 AD (Gaelic, Germanic and a bit of Roman), 1200 AD (similar but mixed with French) and some time later, too, to read in school, it was good fun smile And not everything with a German root makes sense, after all, I don't ubbloco


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Brief (historical) overview on German language



I understand that a reform can be useful. But what has changed to make it necessary? I'd say it could be comparable with reforming english pronounciation to txt.



However, pronounciation "rules" give hints on "how to pronounce" a word. Same in English as in German ("Jrmn")... would we have to start using different pronounciation keys for foreign languages? Meaning that "English" would be spelled "Inglisch" by the Germans and "Inglish" by the French? So ppl would not get confused?



If anything is spelled the way it's spoken - educate me in England or the US - at least in Northern Germany one would spell very different from another in the South... no? We read the same words but use different sounds to express what we are reading...



In the "traditional" way, we can investigate into the roots of a word (more easy), understand where it comes from/ what it means. I would even claim that "playing with words and meanings", emphaSizing on individual letters and therefore find alternate ways to Xpress various aspecs of what one wants to say is easier in the "traditional" way.



Guess you can tell that I am against the German spelling reform. I believe that in certain cases "confusion" is helpful to woManKind. I believe that there is nothing more deadly to creativity and alertness than a plain 6-lane straight highway all the way from Sydney to Cairns...



Our schooling system is not necessarily designed to make ppl think/ to be creative, but to follow rules and NOT to think (for ones self). I find it scary to teach children to wait for green light (and the illusion to be safe by doing so) when there is no car approaching. It means to take away the individual ability to judge and transfer it to a bulb in a housing. "you can't cast a judgement, you have to depend on a machine" (which in German would be spelled "maschine")...



Okay, maybe I'm taking this a little (too) far...



Rouge, would you kindly edit the title (should be pronounced "titel" however), as the reform is NOT about German Grammar, but spelling? wink

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1188818446)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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