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Posted:I have a question for those more experienced poi spinners.

Yuta just released a new movie about a month ago from Bornfire; specifically, I'm referring to no. 4, "Finale".

At 2:34, he and Togo are doing some weird looking butterfly combo.

At 3:21, he does a different anti spin sort of combo move.

What are those two moves, and how does one break them down to learn them? I have a hard time telling what direction their arms/poi are going in. But the moves look really cool.


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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Ok ... here we go !! wink



So for the first move ...

... the poi are in on time butterfly ...

... start with the highest poi in backward and the lowest poi in forward ( whatever the arms position you choose initially ) ...

... the arms just move in split time ...

... the first phase ( during the switch of arms position ) is an half 4 foils butterfly flower

... one complete foil and two half foils are drawn by each arm respectively in front of you and at the starting arms position (up & down)

... the second phase ( during the arms return to their initial position ) is an half giant butterfly ( no foil drawn in front of you just the half of a great circle ).



For the second move...

... this time pois are in split time butterfly ...

... and the arms move on time ...

... let's assume that the arms start in the uppest position ...

... in the first phase ( you know what it means ) the arm spinning backward does an half 4 foils flower whereas the arm spinning forward does an half giant...

... in the second phase the arm spinning backward does an half giant whereas the arm spinning forward does an half 4 foils flower.



To sum up ... the second move is a variation of the first one ( or the inverse ) ... there is just switch of rythmes between the arms and the pos. smile



This move illustrate very well a field on which i am working on ... and that i have called " Continious Assembly Patterns" (CAP) !! eek



This not a new concept ... just a tool to keep in mind in order to imagine others patterns with those that already exist !! confused



In this case ... for the first move as well as for the second ... the arm do only ONE pattern which is the continious assembly of two halves of different patterns ( a giant and a 4 foil flower ) !! rolleyes



Sometimes ... like in the previous example ... the assembly can be direct ... but there is cases where is needed an arc of regular poi spin to make the junction (when you want to assembly parts of an inspin flower and an antispin flower ) !! ubbloco



Consequently it is possible to imagine assembly with more than 2 parts !! ubbidea



Maybe i should launch a new topic about theses CAPs ... but i have started my researches only one week ago ... it drives to a notation for spin moves ... but it is not completely mature for instance !!



Moreover ... i am french ... thus if i decide to do that ... it could take me such a long time to translate all i have in mind on the forum about this subject !!



Perhaps in a few weeks ...



Topette ( A kind of see you in my local slang ) !!


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i've been playing with loads of this stuff lately.

anyone see the weird flower thingy i was spinning (badly) at play?

well, that's this stuff smile



for those who have never met me/weren't at play and actually care what i'm on about, the crazy flower thingy is this: antispin transfer from one side of a longarm circle to the other (by moving hands in a straight(ish) line through the middle of the big circle) then a quarter of a longarm circle - repeat.

it takes four repetitions to get back to the start.



if i understand french_saltimbanque's CAP idea correctly, this would be an 'assembly of four parts' biggrin



french_saltimbanque - great descriptions hug



however, i don't think of this stuff as 'half giant circles' and 'half four foil flowers'.

i just think of 'transfers between two hand positions'.

i.e. you can either move your hand and make a stretched out circle (arc) or you can move your hand and make a loop (antispin).

this removes the concept of 'continuous assembly patterns' but makes it far easier to construct patterns like this that have both arc and antispin components.



the moves celyddon is asking about are fairly nice moves to illustrate these two types of transfer.

hug yuta hug



for those who don't get what the hell is going on with these patterns, it might help to first consider the pattern that just one forwards spinning poi makes (that's forwards in wheel plane if you're wondering what 'spinning forwards' means wink ).



move one:



there are two hand positions - high and low.



first half of move one is an antispin transfer from low to high (start moving your hand upwards in a straight line to the high position as the poi moves past the 12 o'clock point).



second half of move is an arc transfer from high back to low (move hand downwards as poi passes 12 o'clock - i'm sure we call all do this bit wink ).



the other poi, spinning in the opposite direction is mirroring i.e. hand starts high - antispin transfer from high to low (start moving hand downwards as poi passes 6 o'clock) followed by arc transfer low to high (move hand upwards as poi passes 6 o'clock).





move two:



this is just move one but in normal butterfly with no arc transfer - i.e. two antispin transfers between two points.



so back to thinking about one poi spinning forwards...



first half of the move is identical to first half of move one - move hand upwards to the high position as the poi passes 12 o'clock.



second half of the move is an antispin transfer back down - move hand downwards as poi passes 6 o'clock.



so the full move is just opposite spinning poi (in same time butterfly), both hands starting low.





if that makes absolutely no sense to everyone here, please tell me.



i have a shiny new workshop abut this stuff called 'transfers' (or 'antispin fundamentals' if you want to sell it harder) but i had only just written it and was way too drunk to bother trying to teach it at the only festival i've been to this year - i'll start teaching it next year when everyone can already do it tongue



cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:clarify the second please cole, tho i am drunk.

T beerchug


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Thanks for the other approach coleman ... and for the complement of explanations ( i have forgotten some important words like antispin in my previous post redface) !!

I also think spin moves with what you call transferts ... the motion of the center of rotation of the poi ( the hand ) itself if i have understood correctly !! smile

To my mind ... for a given distance between the shoulder and the hand ... there is three main motion modes ... from one point to another in the circle generated by this distance (radius) :

- By following the circle it self ( Two pathes owing to the sense of rotation >> greatest part or smallest part of the circle )
-By following the chord ( only one path )
-By following what we could call the "paracircle" which is the symmetric of the circle relatively to the chord ( usually only one path is feasable ... the symmetric of the smallest part of the circle )

With only the first mode ... we get the "conventional" in spin or antispin compound circles patterns !! weavesmiley

With a mix of the first and the second mode ... we get CAPs as the coleman's crazy flower thingy ... wich is an assembly of TWO ( not four ) part of patterns ( the antispin linear hand move part and the longarm circle part ) !! biggrin

With a mix of the first and the third mode ... we get ... hard to explain but interesting compound circles !! rolleyes

It is obviously possible to mix the second and the third ... and the whole three at the time !! ubbloco

To make a precision ... I call pattern the family of curve generated by a given relative motion between the arm and the poi ( in coleman terms : a given "arm transfer" and a given poi rotations ) !! confused

For examples ...
... there are as much patterns as number of foils for the inspin compound circles ( including the 0 foil inspin CC called long circle ) ...
... the same with antispin compound circles ( including the 0 antispin CC called ellipse ) ...
... the same with linear hand motion (we can't talking about in or anti spin in this case )...
... plus the pattern of the regular spin where the arm doesn't move ( small circle ) ...
... plus the pattern of the pendulum where only the arm moves ...
... plus finally the pattern of the stall ( where both don't move ). eek

It is quite theorical ... but ... i promise ... i will do a translation of the article i am typing ... about a spin notation based on these approaches !!

Topette les spinners !! wink


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:great post french_saltimbanque smile



i don't think i quite understand mode 3...

i'm guessing its these type of hand movements (see black line in centre of image)?



and isn't there something between 1 and 2 - 'lens' hand motions which would be either side of the chord, between the chord and the circle - like these types of shape.



but i think i might consider antispin slightly differently to some.

for example, i do think that with linear hand motion we can define both an arc (or 'inspin') transfer and an antispin transfer...



i think of the transfer modes (and thus everything to do with a constantly spinning poi) like this:



for motion between two points in space, there are two basic modes of transfer: 'arc' (aka inspin, normal spin or spin) and 'loop' (aka antispin or foil).



if we move a poi between these two points allowing the poi to spin through 180 degrees relative to your hand, we get either a full arc or a full loop, depending where the poi is on its circle (i.e. the circle relative to the hand) when you begin the motion.



if we draw a straight line between two points 'a' and 'b' for your hand to start and end at, the simplest path for your hand to take between them is that line.

so, pick an arbitrary poi spin direction (say clockwise) and an arbitrary motion along a line (say left to right).



if you move the your hand from a to b along the line as the poi moves into the half of its circle above the line (i.e. as it passes 9 o'clock), this is an arc transfer.



if you move the your hand from a to b along the line as the poi moves into the half of its circle below the line (i.e. as it passes 3 o'clock), this is a loop transfer.




(that's the first minute and a half of my workshop that is biggrin )



some other thoughts on the subject that i don't have time to explain now are:

patterns are made up of a set of lines between points.
the minimum number of lines a pattern can have (remaining in one transfer mode or the other throughout) is 1 for an arc transfer and 3 for a loop transfer. [note: 3 is the minimum number of lines required to join two points without passing along the same line twice]
hand motion paths above or below the line produce variations on the basic arc or loop poi path shapes. [note: limit of this variation in shape is limited to shoulder to hand distance. that ignores of course the small extra variation in shape you can get if you move your body and hence your shoulders with arms at full extension by crouching or walking/turning smile]
when the hand is following a path above or below the line between a and b (e.g. half of a full arm circle) the hand speed along the line is modified.
varying hand speed along a path produces variations on the basic arc or loop poi path shapes.
it may be more fundamental to split these transfers into 90 degree rotations of the poi rather than 180 degree spins but it hurt my head when i thought like that so i'll try that again another time (or wait for someone else to do it and listen to what they have to say)
i haven't got as far as working out a good way of simplifying the description of complex patterns that factors in arm rotation. i thought it might have something to do with centring everthing relative to the shoulder and doing something weird like adding arm rotation it to the poi rotation and/or considering 360 spins rather than 180 (or 90) degree spins. but i haven't followed that train of thought through yet either. the two points below are a couple of ways of applying this theory to 'complex' patterns (like like the crazy flower thing in my first post for example).


starting or ending motion along a line when a poi is not at 3 or 9 o'clock or allowing the poi to spin through greater or fewer than 180 degrees produces more shape variations and is one way of describing complex patterns. unfortunately this also produces many impossible patterns (i.e. patterns where poi loses momentum and 'flops') so its not so great for generating patterns frown
for many patterns, its easier and more physically accurate (but is massively less geeky and fundamentalist) to think of all this in terms of full poi circles - i.e move along a line between a and b, allowing the poi to spin 360 degrees. using the starting conditions we used above (clockwise, left to right), starting to move as the poi passes 12 o'clock is a loop transfer, starting to move as poi passes 6 o'clock is an arc. i don't like this as much but it can be a lot more intuitive for many patterns



go chew on those think nuggets you little monkeys wink



mmmmmm smile

i ubblove poi theory.



i could try and teach myself basic flash so i can animate some of this stuff. umm ubbidea umm

animations would certainly be clearer.

and i have a good feeling that learning flash and then making animations to explain this stuff might be quicker than thinking of words to illustrate the same ideas...



cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:About the paracircle ( and all the other stuffs ) here is a little schematic
Non-Https Image Link




The green square is the shoulder ... and the green spots are the two positions of the hand.



Effectively the lens are all the intermadiate poth between the three main of my previous post.

I didn't mentionned them because in practical purposes it is rare to use them ... and mostly because we can interpreted each lens ( or paralens ) of a given green circle as an arc ( or para arc ) of another green circle built with another distance shoulder/hand !! ubbloco



The black curve picture of your first link is a deltoid ... a feasable pattern with po ( just a matter of ratio between the length of poi and the distance S/H ) ... but it is not really the description of para arcs !! wink



I agree with your explanation of the linear hand motion ... though i think semantically it is not a good idea to call inspin "arc transfer" and antispin "loop transfer" because it is possible to do either in the two cases ( i mean generally ) !! ubbrollsmile



Moreover ... this denomination lose sense in numerous cases where the poi do more than 180 degrees and if it start in another orientation than "parallel to the line" case of your example !!



Finally for one given number of degrees ... there is only one ( maybe a couple more ) case of starting position where we can use fairly the terms "loop" and "arc" !!



By the sentence "the same with linear hand motion (we can't talking about in or anti spin in this case )" i would like to say that

... if the definition of inspin is spinning with same senses of rotation for the arm and the poi

... and if the definition of antispin is spinning with opposite senses of rotation for the arm and the poi

... how can we talk about these notion in the case of linear hand motion where the arm does NOT do ANY rotation ?!? rolleyes



About the "others thoughts" ... could you give me your own definition of pattern ... because i don't really understand your two first points !! confused



Otherwise for the others points ... specially about the splitting and the working on simplification ( 5th and 6th points ) ... we are wondering about the same things !! wink



You know what ... i think i am gonna finally begin to type my theorical article in english ... so i could send you a preversion to have an external mind before to put it on the forums !! bounce



Are you ok with that coleman ?!? confused2

You like poi theory ... thus i am sure you are the good guy !! peace



Topette !! weavesmiley


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ugoAgogo
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

ugoAgogo

member
Location: Brighton / Canterbury

Total posts: 112
Posted:*reads though posts again*

errrrrrr


scratches head .. . . . . . . .

almost understands!


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. . . . . . . . . . . . . ZAP

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Posted:Hmmm...the wording confuses me a little, as I'm more of a visual learner than a verbal one, but I'll try to see if I can't get it.

Thanks much for all the responses!


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Yuta
DIAMOND Member since Feb 2004

Yuta

member
Location: Japan Tokyo/Miyazaki

Total posts: 138
Posted:awsome analysis!!

its too difficult to read for my japanenglish smile


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:POISM at bornfire 2007 No.4_Finale:








--------------------------------------------------------------



Here is the original video.



Thx Yuta,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:HERE WE GO:




Non-Https Image Link




Define: Paracircle



According to F.S. I'd rather describe to be paracircle

the whole structure.



(F.S.)



Basicly kind of flower, but beeing compound

form three parts:



-Long arm

-Spin(1/2 flower)

-Antispin(Quadrifoil)



In fact, there is possible to create the reverse

of this pattern (S / AS) or create some more,

but attention wheather doable.



(Cole)




Non-Https Image Link




Define: Lens



Now looking closer to hand movement, lens.

As by F.S. next post. I think the movement

has something to do with AS.



(proval request)



-------------------------------------------------------------------



"Practicaly this move is bidirectional!"



Thx Coleman

Thx F.S.



lightning,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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jaiko


jaiko

newbie
Location: caldera

Total posts: 19
Posted:excellcent descriptions, yuta was teaching these techniques at UberOZ last year... must refine more personally

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


Linear paracircle (thx Jo Rhymes)

lightning,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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