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mistur
mistur

newbie
Location: Paris
Member Since: 26th Jul 2006
Total posts: 6
Posted:Hi all



I'm on a big french juggling forum and we have a big debat about spinning or swinging ?



for some people, spinning is for balle or plate rotation (on finger or stick) but not allow for using poi



spinning is used more and more by poi user instead of swinging which was more used before



I'd like to know what is your opinion about this :



shall we use spinning for poi juggler ?



thanks in advance



Yoann



edit : I'd like to but a poll, but forgot it so if a modo or and admin read this and could add it to this post thx smile

EDITED_BY: mistur (1153855042)


Jugglers, like programmers, handle objects which, at first sight, seem complex and difficult to control. Some of them, with time and patience, manage to control one or the other or both at the same time, and thus become aware of what they are doing.

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Either / both / whichever you prefer and you can use twirling too.
It's the marvel that is the english language.

Word Up biggrin


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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Also see: playing, poigling and tangling



To me, swinging implies a pendulum like motion, backwards and forwards. WHich is often what happens with clubs, hence, *club swinging*. Spinning goes round and round repeatedly as in

*you spin me round round baby right round like a record baby round round right round*

So I would tend to think spinning for poi.



Twirling as in *fire twirler* is a longstanding phrase for playing with staff. But I always think of an evil villian with the moustache...


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'm with Newgabe (exceptfot the evil villain) smile

Though for people who don't know what it is I'm doing I tend to say firedancing.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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milka
journeyman
Location: Limoges (France)
Member Since: 9th Jun 2005
Total posts: 89
Posted:The question we discuss on our forum (or at least the latest one, each time those who refuse the term "spinning" realize they're wrong, they find a new argument against it) is about the term "spinning" on its own : according to some people, English speakers (put roughly, you smile) NEVER use the word on its own when they mean the actitivy in general. Is that true ?

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:The other way round really. We would say 'spinners' like 'there were jugglers and spinners in the park today' But we would not say ' there were swingers in the park today'. It would not make sense. Swingers in that general sense is a sort of old fashioned sixties word for 'groovy people' and now sounds very Austin Powers. ()



And I would happily say 'my spinning is getting better' or ' she's a great spinner' but we would not say 'she's a great swinger'; partly cos it also has a meaning of people who casually swap sexual partners...

In fact I don't think I have ever heard an English speaking person talk about 'poi swinging'



Fire dancing is getting a more common term ... but most of the time we aren't using fire...


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:When I first started spinning (the term I use) one of my less-than-accepting friends took to calling my staff the Whirly Girly Twirly Batton. As such, I just don't feel that twirling is a masculine enough term for me personally. It's like calling a big, strong guy tiny in a way.

As for swinging, I think that one is interchangable really. I mean you are swinging a ball around. But it doesn't really apply to staff, where I feel spinning is a better term. So I'd say "spinning" is the better term, as in "fire spinning" simply because it applies to both staff and poi. Plus it gives you the nice sort of allusion to an artist spinning an intricate web as well. I guess.


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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:I usually tell people I'm prospecting for uranium, but that's just me.

I prefer the use of 'spinning', though that gets misunderstood with the bike-thing.

I HATE "twirling".


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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talaron
newbie

Member Since: 6th May 2005
Total posts: 3
Posted:Spinning is the common term for ball spinning, or plate spinning, since a looong time. As swinging is historically the common term for clubs/poi manipulation, not because it is a pendulum like motion, but because you have to maintain speed manually and there is a unique attach point, the hand.

Terms used are not only lead by fashion, they have a meaning, so all communities can communicate through the time.

You always say "ball spinning" for spinning a ball on your finger, but you don't say "club spinning". Clubs swinging and poi swinging are almost the same.

So, isn't "swinging" the legitimate term for clubs/poi manipulation ?


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:to re-cap what i see;

there is "swinging" "spinning" "twirling" and "fire dancer".

swinging is considered to be a pendulum motion, although it can refer to poi in the sense that you have to maintain your speed, this is comparable to Australias swinging the billy where you have to keep momentum to stop the water spilling from the billy(pot). however swinging does not relate to staff where you dont have to swing and keep momentum, and it also doesnt relate to "fire dancing" where when using poi you are not always swinging them.

Spinning, while historically may refer to plate and ball spinning, IMO does discribe the actions you make with both staff and poi(that being making circular motions), but not covering 'fire dancing', which means it is more thorough in covering diffent toys than 'swinging'.

Twirling, i believe, has the same meaning as Spinning that is outlined above

Fire Dancing, imo, is where the performer dances and moves their body more than they spin( i say spin so as to include both staff and poi).

Talking about the use of the terms:

Swinging(action) swinger(person swinging) 'swinger', as stated before, refers to people who regularly trade sexual partners, so if people were to say "whats your hobby?" and you said "i'm a swinger" they would assume you meant 'casually trade sexual partners', whereas if you say "i'm a twirler" or "I'm a spinner" although they may not understand, they would not think you were refering to sexual actions. so it is in peoples best interest not to use the term 'swinging/swinger' to describe their actions to other people.

likewise, the word swinging does not portray people using staffs and poi, as you do not 'swing' a staff. so if you say "lets go for a swing" it would seemingly exclude staff, where as if you said "lets go for a spin/twirl" it would encompass all toys you may use.

so in conclusion, while swinging does refer to poi, it does not cover the spectrum of toys used and is not as appropriate as spinning or twirling.

IMO meditate biggrin


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: talaron



So, isn't "swinging" the legitimate term for clubs/poi manipulation ?





Poi swinging? Historically relevant and therefore sounds great except that no one says it wink



That is, a non-English speaker might...sounds weird but we'd forgive 'em...


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:well, it is club swinging and not club spinning, twirling etc, and a lot of the moves are the same. Still, swinging sounds a bit silly for poi smile

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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vinssouille
newbie

Member Since: 27th Jul 2006
Total posts: 1
Posted:Hi

It might sound a bit odd for you (as natural english speakers) but could you explain me the grammatical differences (not the meaning) between :
(1) spinning, twirling or swinging (on their own)
and
(2) fire twirling, staff spinning or club swinging (with the epithet)

confused

Doesnt (1) refer to the action whereas (2) refers to the activity ?

Or can (1) refer to the activity ? but in this case, dont we have to be carefull because:
swinging on its own usually refers to people who casually swap sexual partners. Hence, we should better say club swinging for instance;
and twirling on its own usually refers to the Whirly Girly Twirly Batton sport and thats why this website is maned Home of poi and fire twirling and not home of poi and twirling

Thanks to enlighten me on that

vince


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GothFrogette
GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton
Member Since: 10th Oct 2004
Total posts: 3999
Posted:I use the term spinning... for either Poi or staff to me swinging is what you do on a swing... ie the pendulum for me to spin is to make something go around and around and around can either be me or the what ever i am holding biggrin

Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:if i would you, i'd refer them to the best-selling text on the subject and leave it at that.



it a book called "poi spinning" i believe...



and to answer your question milka, no that is not true.



we often use "spinning" to describe the activity in general.



more common is the use of a colloquial device:

an action (described by an adjective) can be exressed by implying possession of the the noun equivalent of the adjective:



"bathing" = "having a bath"

"drinking" = "having a drink"

"spinning" = "having a spin"



so, for example:

"what is milka doing?"

"he is having a spin."



another example might be:



"where is milka?"

"he is spinning over there."





mistur - one phrase i have never heard a native english speaker use is "poi juggler" smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:i spin

in fact, sometimes i spin while spinning spin-spin.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mistur
mistur

newbie
Location: Paris
Member Since: 26th Jul 2006
Total posts: 6
Posted: Written by:

mistur - one phrase i have never heard a native english speaker use is "poi juggler"


me either, but it was the only way I found to describe a poi spinner without using spinner or swinger wink

Oki thanks for the explanation

The aim of this debat is to find a good description for the part of our forum where there are users of pois, staffs and clubs swinging (with or without fire)

first is was in french "swinging and feu" but we decided to change this to "spinning and fire" and got complaints about the word "spinning" then a very long debate started.

I'd like to close it and I think "spinning" is the good word but I'd like to be sure, so am asking in the english dedicated forum.

thx

Yoann


Jugglers, like programmers, handle objects which, at first sight, seem complex and difficult to control. Some of them, with time and patience, manage to control one or the other or both at the same time, and thus become aware of what they are doing.

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: milka


The question we discuss on our forum (or at least the latest one, each time those who refuse the term "spinning" realize they're wrong, they find a new argument against it) is about the term "spinning" on its own : according to some people, English speakers (put roughly, you smile) NEVER use the word on its own when they mean the actitivy in general. Is that true ?



yes, we do. "i am going for a spin this afternoon", "do you want to spin?" "i had a great spin last night" "we did not spin because it rained" would be a few everyday examples where i use the term.

 Written by: Vinssouille

Doesnt (1) refer to the action whereas (2) refers to the activity ?

Or can (1) refer to the activity ? but in this case, dont we have to be carefull because:



yes one can refer to the activity(as displayed above), and yes you do have to be careful, when talking to other people that partake in the actions they would understand what you are doing. however i find, for people that are new to it, using the term "fire twirling" to the best general discription, mainly because "fire" makes it sound dangerous and "twirling" alludes to a certain grace and fluency, both of which combine to make it sound more impressive.

in english, spinning is the most appropriate word (for participants) as it covers both poi and staff, is not neccissarily considered 'girly' like 'twirling' is, and is an appropriate description of the activity. i understand that while some may say the poi are swinging, at the same time it is obvious (in english) that they are also spinning.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:just to throw in another use of 'spinning' to describe a different type of actionentirely: contact jugglers spend lots of time 'palm spinning'.

this is not spinning a palm tree on a stick or finger (like a plate or ball), nor is it spinning a palm around and around like one would a poi or staff.

it is still a good word to describe the action being performed and the fact that the word 'spinning' describes several other actions simply means that it should generally be used in a context that alludes to the specific meaning.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mistur
mistur

newbie
Location: Paris
Member Since: 26th Jul 2006
Total posts: 6
Posted:so finaly,

I think I'll put :
"Swinging Massues, Spinning Pois et Staffs avec ou sans feu"

equal to :
"Club swinging, Pois and Staffs Spinning with or withour fire"

what do you think about that ?

Yoann


Jugglers, like programmers, handle objects which, at first sight, seem complex and difficult to control. Some of them, with time and patience, manage to control one or the other or both at the same time, and thus become aware of what they are doing.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:perfect smile

hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:I only ever refer to poi as 'swinging' when I remind then that they DO know what I'm talking about.

Me: I'm going to a poi meet

Them: Poi? What's Poi?

Me: You know - when I'm swinging my balls around...

Them: Oh! *giggle*

Mistur!!! I LOVE YOUR AVATUR - SIGUR ROS!!! YAY!! biggrin hug


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I swing Indian and fire clubs, what are poi?



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:winnah. wink good chioce.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Colin J
Colin J

small member
Location: Hastings
Member Since: 24th May 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:It has to be spinning. because antiswinging sounds too wrong to me

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talaron
newbie

Member Since: 6th May 2005
Total posts: 3
Posted: Written by:

It has to be spinning. because antiswinging sounds too wrong to me


I disagree with this reasoning.
While juggling with clubs, you can do reverse spins, it doesn't mean you're spinning. It's only a kind of throw.
Same way, you can make antispin while swinging with clubs.

However, I have to admit "spinning" is a very common term nowadays.


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Colin J
Colin J

small member
Location: Hastings
Member Since: 24th May 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:let me clarify that last statement. it only applies when refering to poi.

clubs use a slightly differnt set of terminology but antiswinging still sounds wrong to me.


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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: coleman





more common is the use of a colloquial device:

an action (described by an adjective) can be exressed by implying possession of the the noun equivalent of the adjective:



"bathing" = "having a bath"

"drinking" = "having a drink"

"spinning" = "having a spin"



cole. x





Hey there Cole et al,



soapbox



Grammar lesson 1a:

In English, actions are named by *verbs* (not, as you have written, 'described by adjectives'



eg 'to write' is a verb



Verbs are then further described by *adverbs*

Adverbs describe how something is done

eg to write (verb) well (adverb)



Grammar lesson 1b:

Things are named by *nouns*

eg 'a tree' is a noun.



Nouns are then further described by *adjectives*

eg green (adjective) tree (noun)



There are lots of types of adjectives (describing type, location, appearance, topic, etc)



English is confusing as words swap around from being nouns or adjectives or verbs without necessarily changing their spelling. And we don't always add an 's' to show plural, hence



eg we spin poi (noun)

and we have poi (adjective) lessons'



(In the example a few posts ago someone talked about 'palm spinning' in contact juggling. Here the noun 'palm' has become an adjective describing the location of the activity.



(Perhaps in the future we might use 'poi' as a verb: as in *I love to poi* smile )





Grammar lesson 2a:

Have you noticed that in English gramatically the word 'spinning' can be a verb

eg: He is spinning well



or a noun

eg: Spinning is good for you?



Grammarians (there are such things) call this type of noun a *gerund*



A gerund takes a type of verb (called a *participle*) to create a noun that names an activity in general (rather than someone specifically DOING it. eg, writing, dreaming, spinning,)



Grammar lesson 2b

The word (noun/gerund) 'spinning' can then act as a type of adjective eg:

spinning (adjective) workshop (noun)



How do I know this ? In the olden days before computers we kids used to spend hours in the classroom analysing sentences to determine exactly how words were behaving. It was called *parsing*. Us geeks liked it but I think the post modernists had a fair slash at it.



Discuss:

How 'words' and 'meanings' became 'text' and 'signifiers'



 Written by: coleman



mistur - one phrase i have never heard a native english speaker use is "poi juggler" smile

cole. x





Which is why you never find poi spinners at juggling conventions wink


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:i never learnt that in school, i can remember doing maybe six sheets about nouns, verbs and adjectives, but i didnt understand it then.

you should be an english teacher newgabe wink


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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[noodles]
[noodles]

*Property of Pigeon Wigeon*
Location: Locked In Pigeons Chimney
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 893
Posted:Gotta love the english language. I was born here and lived here all my life and I still can't understand all that noun, verb, adjective, etc that all you guys are talking about.

My thoughts on spin/swing thing.

Swinging involves a pendulam motion. Like a swing in a park. It goes forward up to a point then goes backward to a point.

Spinning involves rotations i.e full circles. Thus when I play with a staff or poi they are going in full circles (mostly) so I'm spinning.


Could somebody stop the room please... I'd like to get off

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Dragosani
Dragosani

sunset seadragon
Location: some little fluffy clouds
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2005
Total posts: 679
Posted:How about poislinging (as in gunslinging)?

Neon: my girlfriend once referred to me playing poi as:" when he's fooling around with his flaming tampons"... biggrin


A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world. - Oscar Wilde
Jointly owned by FreyaJ, Birgit and Aurinko

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