• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Simplified Spelling....diskuhs

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12
Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:
see heer


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete Topic

jungleboy


jungleboy

member
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 40
Posted:He he... i like the idear! My speling is reely bad and this wood make life much eesier. Beter stil we cood just make up wot we wont and hav no rools. Then nowun wood larf at me wen i rite things like - I like twerling fiyer on a peece of chane.

Delete

Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:would make things easier for people who learn English!

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Against it. Unfortunately, the university semester is over, so I don't have acess to the online lecture notes to quote for you, but we actually covered this in linguistics.

Basically, as it says in the article. It's not feasible. There are just so many sounds in the English language that to have a different symbol for every one of them would just be highly difficult. Has anyone seen the phoenetic alphabet? Where the symbols (still arbitrary in design) describe not the sound, but the physical way in which we create the sound. You really don't want to to spell that way, by thinking about the position of your tongue when you say it.

Also, with things like word meaning, and related words, if we start spelling words in simplified spelling, we will lose the connections between related words. For example, we know words begining in "circ" refer to the shape that as only one singular and smooth side. It distinguished from other words begining with "sir".

It wouldn't necessarily make it easier for those learning English as a foreign language because of the above reasons.

Furthermore, simplified spelling is somewhat of a myth anyway. Sure, "creation" sounds like "kreashon" but that is exclusive to the English language. We may use the same characters as German, Spanish, French, etc, but we don't pronounce the letters in the same way. "ce" in Romanian is different to Spanish (Castillian) is different to Italian is different to English. The sounds relating to the letters we see is arbitrary, therefore simplified spelling is really just changing from one arbitrary thing to another.

That is not to say I am against evolution of language and spelling. But sudden and forced change is another thing and I think that forced changes to a language are very unlikely to work.

I honestly don't think it will solve too much.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted:.... it makes me sad.

I'm sorry, but I keep feeling a strange sense of failure at the thoughts of the education system in place these days that would come up with such things and the students who encourage it.

I understand, I have very little room to speak on this matter. I originally went to a pre-engineering high school and left that after deciding that both mechanical and civil engineering were filled with too much red tape and regulations to truly enjoy designing. So, I went to art. I'm considered to be a rather grand failure and a quitter by my high school's standards. However, are we really encouraging a failure of basic education to the point that we feel the need to entirely rework the English language to accomodate this?

However, this all is a truly old argument for me (compromising our educational system, language, or any other standard to make things easier for poor students). I really believe it is a cop-out, for lack of a better term, for teachers and the education system to pass students who perform poorly. Perhaps this is because the vast majority of educators who I have had the extreme pleasure of studying under, were all creative and dedicated to their students to an excessive degree. I've been rather spoiled in this aspect.

I am for the evolution of language and of thought in general. In fact, I've been rather fascinated by communication arts (who else has heard the infamous NOVA, "No va" joke about the failed sales of the Chevy Nova with Spanish speaking nations?) However, according to the article, this change is meant to make it easier to learn the English language and to learn to read and write.

And I do have to agree with the logic of it won't help solve much. Understanding a language has a lot to do with familiarity with the phonetics for both the written and spoken parts of the language, but, without a sound comprehension of what the sounds actually mean or how they go together appropriately, it doesn't mean anything.

*deep breath*
*calms down*

Sorry. Like I said, it's rather a pet peeve of mine. I had this same problem in two different classes at school. A lot of students in both my History of Graphic Design and my Science of Light classes bickered and complained about why they had to take those classes. History of Graphic Design is a requied class for graphic design students (in my eyes, you have to know where the field has been to know where it's going). Science of Light is a required course for animation students (a fellow GD student and myself were in there as an elective course, who both couldn't understand why animation students could not see the importance of understanding fully how light reacts and behaves with objects in the environment).

*steps away from soapbox*


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Delete

Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:you could change the pronunciation then so that words are actually said like they're written wink

I wasn't actually too serious, I do believe it wouldn't work, but if it did that would make things a lot easier. Or at least get people to stop laughing at foreigners mispronouncing a word that sounds different from one with a similar combination of letters tongue


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:didn't this aready happen...?

analog, anesthesia, archeology, catalog, center, color, curb, defense, dialog, donut, encyclopedia, favorite, gage, gray, hauler, honor, humor, jewelry, maneuver, meter, mold, mustache, nite, omelet, pajamas, program, specialty, tire, vise...

wink tongue


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I don't recognise some of those words! Some I can recognise, but others I had no idea the spelling had even changed! like, "mold" is that "mould"? like the green stuff?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

_Aime_
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

_Aime_

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hastings

Total posts: 4172
Posted:"Simplified Spelling....diskuhs"

It's taken 2 hours for me to click what the latter word actually was rolleyes

Since leaving school and enrolling in an art college my writing practice has literally gone out the window due to the curriclum..it means spelling is so much harder, as I'm out of practice, and keeping handwriting neat and eligable (some of my words are written backwards sometimes ubblol) is extremely hard..

Having said that I'm completely against making English spelt phonetically.
The whole thing looks similar to abbriviated 'text' speak, which irritates me beyond belief. It has a way that it is spelt..so I (try to) spell it how it is spelt, not what I think it sounds like..
That's the way is it shrug
Words evolve and change individually through time, yet a complete overhaul, in my opinion, would cause confusion for those practising English, and those learning it...


Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i got the list from here rouge.

the reason i was being flippant is just cos i have nothing more of value to add - i agree with everything rouge said in her first post smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I like our English spellings. I like being pedantic when people spell things wrong. I like being able to help Sym spell stuff (he's got dyslexia). mainly because I'm good at spelling and it makes me feel big and clever. biggrin

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Delete

Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted:It's quite infuriating because it seems that people, including really intelligent people use txt tlk as a means of rebelling against the established sense of what it means to be intelligent - i.e. well read, gramatically articulate and have an extensive vocabulary.



I agree that idea that language and communication aren't the same thing and that one doesn't have to have the literary skills of a poet laureat or the vocabulary of the most cunning linguist to be intelligent.



But establishing text talk as something to aspire to smacks of a sense of resignation by the board of education. That they feel like leveling the playing field in order to get pupils interested in certain subjects instead of making an effort to teach them proper english before giving them the choice to use it or not...



Just imagine how impenetrable Legal Documents, which are the epitome of tedium to read, write and decipher would be if they were written in text talk...


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Delete

Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Neon, if there was a way it would work it would be unintelligible for now, but people would get used to it.



Speaking out of experience, we've had a big argument about a reform of writing in Germany, partly to make it easier for children (especially 2nd generation migrants and those with reading/writing difficulties). Some words that were spelt differently from all others with the same word stem were changed, and there were changes to exceptions in capitalisation and all that.

The result was that there were so many new exceptions to make amends for everyone involved in planning it that it's not much of a difference now. But then, we've always spelt most things the way they are pronounced...



The only big change was in punctuation, which in my opinion, by allowing more variety, has made things less clear.



But in the end, most people who moaned really loudly have shut up now, and life goes on wink



Also, historically speaking, people have ALWAYS changed spelling and pronunciation, it's just that now it can't happen "naturally" but needs to be done by law. I don't see a problem with changing some words, even if I think British English looks prettier and classier than the American version, in school I appreciated that we were allowed to use either and not be too worried about missing out a silent "ue" after a g and getting a bad mark for it.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:First of all...sorry Aimee, that made me laugh though! hug

Next, beyond this being stupidly impossible for all the reasons listed, it would have to take dialect into account.

I had a text book once that was written in Texas. The grammar in it was completely foreign.

Now, knowing that there are about as many dialects to the American-English as there are townships here it would make this nearly impossible. The word 'new' alone would be pronounced Nuh, Noo and Neh..as a start.

Quite frankly, as someone who has taught elementary school, the kids didn't have issues nearly as much as most adults I know do.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I dunno. I definately think that English spelling is so nonsensical as to be humorous. Our language is absurdly hard for foreigners to pronounce (Spanish has exactly five vowel sounds, we have lord-knows-how-many) and it's so hard to spell that the letters really don't even stand for sounds anymore. It's more like Chinese characters. I mean, "phlegm."

People are opposed to the change because they're accustomed to having their spelling a certain way. But ultimately I think it's an idiotic system that we have and we should change it.

Unfortunately, we won't. We won't for the same reason that we're still using English units of measurement and QWERTY keyboards. Tradition.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

astar2


member


Total posts: 37
Posted:I bellyfeel ingsoc newspeak. Simplied spelling should crimestop thought crime.



double plus good.



http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/

EDITED_BY: astar2 (1152201798)


Delete

say_cheese
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

say_cheese

Brown
Location: Behind You!

Total posts: 288
Posted:I agree that our way of spelling is very hard for foreigners to pronounce, In other languges (Gujarati to name one) words are spelt as the are spoken. This makes it easy for anyone reading it pronounce the words.
But im sure tradition however will ensure that our kooky way of spelling is kept!

rolleyes


Official Nutella Fan Club

Go Nutella!

Delete

Pink...?
BRONZE Member since Apr 2002

Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There

Total posts: 6140
Posted:I'm with Rouge on this one,

Also Pele brings up a very good point. I know in England we have so many different accents and dialects, it would be impossible to spell words how they sound for everyone. At least with how the language is spelt at the moment we can read it how it is said in our own accent/dialect.


Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

Delete

Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted:Thing is this is SORT OF how it is in China - Mandarin, Cantonese and Hak Ka are all actually regional dialects but different enough from each other to be classed as actual languages. But the written language for all these dialects are EXACTLY the same... and they cope very well with that system...

Once you start phoneticising every dialect it's just gonna get confusing!


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Delete

AnDien


newbie


Total posts: 6
Posted:Dumbing down a language is.. stupid. Why are there so many stupid kids out there who can't read? Well, they wouldn't happen to be the kind of kids who become 13 year-old alcholic drug-abusers, would they? Surely they don't come from families with no father figure and a single mother who works all day to support them, right?

The only thing we need is for people, both children and adult, to take some responsibility. To be honest, if some delinquent child doesn't want to cooperate in school, and his/her parents aren't disciplining him/her so s/he can learn how to read and write properly, screw them. I hate assholes who get everything handed to them on a silver platter, who are showered with resources, and just simply don't take the opportunity in front of their eyes.


Delete

NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:i can't read that at all, those examples they gave, it's too hard, it all depends what you're used to i guess. Living in wales means i know how to pronounce (welsh) words without vowels even though i can't speak welsh, other people can't. then i look at gaelic and i have no idea how to sound a bh together...

I don't think english is too hard, it is already seems to have one of the least strict grammatical structures, which i have been told by many people learning english as a second language is the hardest part for them to learn. In the same way i found it hard to understand the grammatical elements of learning german in school because i had hardly any understanding of what the english equivalent would be. Although i did have a very good and scary teacher in primary school who drummed in the things like too, to, two, there, their, they're and also that 7 x 8 is 56. if it wasn't for her i'm not sure i would've known what a noun was...

Simplifying spelling is just going to make it more difficult for people to learn... especially those learning it as a second language. And probably english speakers will become even more lazy and retarded when it comes to learning other languages, because they will seem far too complex.


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

Delete

NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:from the article >

"Lurning English reqierz roet memory rather than lojic, he sed."

what's roet?? i have absoluely no clue....


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

Delete

say_cheese
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

say_cheese

Brown
Location: Behind You!

Total posts: 288
Posted:Found this while mooching around Clicky Clicky



EDIT:



This ones good too, from the same site Click ME

EDITED_BY: say_cheese (1152264407)


Official Nutella Fan Club

Go Nutella!

Delete

maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin


cunning lunguist




Theres always one in there somewhere Dave! ubblol

But yes i agree 100% with Miss Rouge Dragon! biggrin


Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: AnDien


Dumbing down a language is.. stupid. Why are there so many stupid kids out there who can't read?



Who's dumbing down? And are all Spaniards stupid? They have a phonetic language. So do the Israelis. And Portugese. And Hindi. And Japanese. If making a language phonetic is "dumbing it down" then you'd better assemble quite an army because a whole bunch of countries could take serious offense to what you just said! eek

Learning English is HARD. I have three degrees and I still make the occasional spelling mistake. I was in my 4th year of medical school before I finally got the spelling of "maintenance" down pat. My written Spanish, on the other hand, is about an 8th-grade level and I almost never make a spelling mistake. Why? The language is completely phonetic other than words it's borrowed from...you guessed it...English.

If I had to pick an international language, I'd go with Spanish.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: AnDien


Dumbing down a language is.. stupid. Why are there so many stupid kids out there who can't read?



Who's dumbing down? And are all Spaniards stupid? They have a phonetic language. So do the Israelis. And Portugese. And Hindi. And Japanese. If making a language phonetic is "dumbing it down" then you'd better assemble quite an army because a whole bunch of countries could take serious offense to what you just said! eek



i think you misinterpreted that quote mike.

a language that develops phonetically is great.

but forcibly turning a language into a phonetic form is a simplification that will result in a reduction of the language's nuances and complexities which in turn reduces the number of explicit ways in which one can express an idea.

phonetic languages tend to end up having phrases that can be used to express more than one idea depending on context.

this seems fine when it comes to everday communication but presents a problem when it comes to situations that require expicit, unambiguous definitions (e.g. law).


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

Firetramp


Firetramp

old hand
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight

Total posts: 896
Posted:I fully agree with Rouge.

Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.

Delete

Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted:I would agree with picking Spanish over English any day (who doesn't love having a simple formula for verb conjugation and being able to tell EXACTLY where the appropriate stress goes on a word?)

However, the subject at hand really seems to about not only the change itself, but the actual process of the change. No one is saying that other languages are dumb. However, we are saying that forcing an entire language to suddenly and abruptly change to a simplified format, rather than allowing the language to naturally evolve along it's own accord, is what's stupid.

Well, at least, that's what a lot of other people are saying. Me, I just don't like cutting corners to make things easy when it won't help as much in the long haul (like I said, reading/hearing vs. understanding/listening).

Like I said, I love Spanish. A friend of mine used to speak so beautifully, but so utterly demonically. Something about his voice combined with the syllable set he was working with in a poem. I like the pace and sound combinations that arise from well-spoken Spanish. However, this doesn't mean I think blugeoning another language to make it similar is the way to go.


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: coleman


this seems fine when it comes to everday communication but presents a problem when it comes to situations that require expicit, unambiguous definitions (e.g. law).


cole. x



Law? Unambiguous? wink

Now... Spelling is what it is. However, why not change spellings to get rid of some of the more absurd letter combinations? Like...for example... "phlegm" (my favorite). Should be "Flem."


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

astar2


member


Total posts: 37
Posted:from phlegm to flem, like sulphur to sulfur, one of my least faviroute american lead butcherings of a word.

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Spanish and Japanese are written phoenetically because of the nature of the languages. Japanese only has 5 vowel sounds, as does Spanish. Therefore they have the capcity to be written phoenetically, however because English has a lot more than 5 (sorry, going to work soon and no time to look up my notes) and therefore lacks the capacity to be written phoenetically. As I said earlier, to write English as it sounded, would require writing it using the phoenetic alphabet, or to completely change the language to one where it was spoken using a much leser amount of vowel sounds.

Not to mention the horrible decision someone would have to make about which dialect of English becomes the basis for new spelling. And I believe there is enough elitism in the dialects of English as it is without something like this being forced onto the population.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Page: 12

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [simplified spelling diskuh*] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > How many board members does it take... [32 replies]
2. Forums > Simplified Spelling....diskuhs [49 replies]
3. Forums > Spelling really dosent matter! lol [29 replies]
4. Learn > Diabolo > Basics > Basic tosses and trapeese *help/resource trapeese tricks  i doubt that im spelling trapeese correctly but im too lazy...
5. Forums > You can go to the ball..... [86 replies]

     Show more..