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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Anyone else seen it yet? I'd love to hear what other people think. Here's a review from a scientific perspective:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm


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maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted:I'm gonna hold my hands up now, last year when i was living in a nice cosy flat i didn't really pay climate change much attention, i was conveniently ignorant. The few bits and bobs i heard about on the news didn't really make a massive impact on me.

However, now that I'm living in a caravan on the beach, I've really notice the fact that the weather is becoming a hell of a lot more extreme.

Also after watching a programme on the polar ice caps a couple of weeks ago, i was shocked at the statistics given out.

The fact that some places could be completely submersed in a few years is frankly quite shocking.

I also think that something needs to be done to raise public awareness on the subject.

I've thought about it while reading that review,and when i watched the documentary on it a few weeks ago, but other than that-if I'm 100% honest, i havn't really thought about it in between

Which is bizarre as it makes me think a lot when i do hear about it.

ho hum........


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daize
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

daize

member
Location: Falmouth, Cornwall

Total posts: 175
Posted:It doesn't mention anything about the catastrophic consiquences if the Atlantic belt's temperature were to drop too low.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I dont agree with the geologist. I think his interpretation is misguided, because in Australia climate change is a reality.

I used to live in the country but all the lakes and streams dried up, so I moved back to Melbourne a couple of years ago. Australia is preparing for environmental refugees as many of the low-lying Pacific islands are expected to be swamped as sea levels to rise due to global warming.

I found the following paper: The Natural Pattern of Climate Change: Can it be Predicted? by Robert M. Carter and Id suggest he seems to have a beef with funding and other issues.





smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Posted:Global warming and its link to carbon dioxide is basically fact. I've seen photos, statistics and various other evidence that all agrees. Unfortunately there are some scientists who will deny that it's happening, just so that oil companies and the like will support them.

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:When Radarsat was launched to do an Antarctic survey, there was mass interest in finding out how much the ice caps had shrunk. When the results came in that they hadn't, somehow the idea that there was less of them still continued.

A few years ago when marine biologists found extensive bleaching of coral on the Great Barrier Reef there was a stink about how global warming was killing our wildlife etc. Last year when they went back to survey the bleaching, they found it had vanished, but *that* seemed to escape everyone's notice.

It's one of those things where people are going to carry on believing what they want to. The negatives are widely publicised but the follow-ups get ignored. Head and brick wall interface.

I wish I still had the energy to get annoyed by "experts" with purely anecdotal evidence.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Eera, I'll follow up. Do you have any more up to date information on Radarsat than this article August 2000? Where it was concluded that it's time that we took notice of global warning and made plans for a future warmer world."



From the Australian Bureau of Meteorology.



Australia's climate is changing "I expect climate change to affect all Australians. It is the Bureau's responsibility to provide decision makers and the general public with accurate observations and information about our changing climate." Dr. Geoff Love, Director of the Australian Bureau of Meteorology.



Australia and the globe are experiencing rapid climate change. Since the middle of the 20th century, Australian temperatures have, on average, risen by about 1C with an increase in the frequency of heatwaves and a decrease in the numbers of frosts and cold days. Rainfall patterns have also changed - the northwest has seen an increase in rainfall over the last 50 years while much of eastern Australia and the far southwest have experienced a decline.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:More up to date information:



Radar altimetry confirms global warming is affecting polar glaciers 17-Mar-2006



Using satellite data collected between 1996 and 2005 by ESAs remote sensing satellites ERS-1 and ERS-2, ESAs Envisat and Canadas Radarsat-1, they found Greenlands southern glaciers are now dumping twice as much ice yearly into the Atlantic as they did in 1996, accounting for nearly 17 percent of the estimated 2.54 millimetre annual rise in global sea levels.







Unfortunately, the Truth is often inconvenient for some.



ubbangel


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted: Written by: Stone


Unfortunately, the Truth is often inconvenient for some.




ditto


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:hmmmmm *checks what hight above sea level my house is* nah, i'm pretty sure i'm safe, as long as i can keep the homeless out. umm

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by:


http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm



That's certainly a completly unbiased report. rolleyes


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: PsyRush



Global warming and its link to carbon dioxide is basically fact. I've seen photos, statistics and various other evidence that all agrees. Unfortunately there are some scientists who will deny that it's happening, just so that oil companies and the like will support them.





And this is certainly a completely unbiased analysis of that report. rolleyes



I take it then that no one has actually seen the movie yet?


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astar2


member


Total posts: 37
Posted:heh this conversation shows how pointless it is to try to discuss anything that involves concrete facts like the fact that the ice caps are largely gone, and they were just a few years ago, mostly their.

Christ, why don't you just spent 10 minutes and look up some satellite photos, or some ground photos. I know people who work on coast guard ships that regulary go to the arctic, and they have seen radical changes in their own life time.

The enuits of canada are unable to survive in a traditional manner anymore (the ones who actually try to) because their's no damn ice up their anymore, and the eco system is completly apeshit.

This conversation really makes me think back to the book 1984

2+2=5 eh?

I agree the evidence that we are causeing global warming is tenous, but please don't try to claim that it's not happening, unless you want to appear as in invalid.


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:no, 2+2= whatever you say.

and yes, if skifields that have been skiable year round for over 100 years suddenly are starting to get dry patches i would say the climate is changing.

how much of an effect CO2 emmisions and other human activities are having is debatable, but change is certain.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:astar2 the problem is, as Mr Majestik said, not whether there is a change but if we are causing it and exactly what that change is and what it will do.

while you have anecdotal evidence of loss of ice in the arctic there is equal evidence of some glaciers growing click

in all honesty very few experts can say what will happen climate wise over the next 50 ~ 100 years. The earth has gone through a massive range of temperatures even recently (see the Medieval warm period here or [url = http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031020055353.htm]
not [/url])

the current rise in temperatures may be a brief blip or the beggining of the end, and sadly with so much money at stake for both sides of the camp its unlikely that we'll know who has really been telling the truth or was even close to the truth until the events do or do not occur. the amount of data for both camps is phenominal with a sad amount of in-fighting with in the scientists its hard to see whos right

(oh and you'll never get scientists to all agree on anything)


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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:I did see the movie and have mixed feelings about it.

Overall, I thought the case made for the impact of our society on the ecosystem was pretty compelling, although truth be told it was nothing that I hadn't heard before. The one thing that I hadn't heard before was the statistic that while evidence that humanity is having an impact on the climate of the planet has been presented in peer-reviewed science journals, such evidence is disputed not in peer-reviewed science journals, but in the non-science 'mainstream' press. That in itself is pretty telling.

For example, the editorial that Patriarch linked to was written by a fellow at this organization. The fact that this group is so unspecific about who their clients are and what their agenda is makes them suspect to me. A pro-environment group would be all about promoting their message and their accomplishments -- they'd be zealots about it, in fact. How do we know that Mr. Harris didn't write his article at the behest of one of the "private corporations" that his company works for? An oil or petrochemical company, perhaps? The fact that their logo is a tree does not assuage my doubts about their intentions.

While it's true that evidence for both sides of the argument can be found, when what's at stake is the ecosystem upon which all life on Earth depends, I think erring on the side of caution (conservation) is the preferable course.

Leaving aside the question of warming and climate change, the fact is the resources we currently exploit to support our civilization are finite. We know that a "peak oil" crisis is coming -- the oil companies even know that. When the rainforests are gone, they're gone. Parts of the world are already beginning to face water crises -- even taking global warming out of the equation, existing water supplies are threatened by pollution and toxic contamination of aquifers and rivers -- and the use of fresh water in industry (such as coal mining operations that use water to slurry the coal to processing areas, as just one example). The fact is, even if there is no global warming, even if climate change has nothing do with human activity, our current way of living is not sustainable.

Okay, sorry. I didn't mean to go on like that when I started this post.

Back to the subject of the film -- what bothered me about it was the bits of Gore's biography thrown in -- that had nothing whatsoever to do with the ecological theme of the movie. By the end of the movie I was wondering if we'd just seen an Al Gore campaign piece (even though he says he's not running again). That's not what I went to see.

Anyway that's my 5 cents.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:_khan_ i agree with you - if nothing else we're running out of resources and energy in general is one of them ...

its sad that people have to have a reason to do things or save things - no one really likes the fumes from cars etc - yet we put up with them for convience - other ways of producing power that dont involove giving out co2 would be better (assuming they dont give out something worse) but because we have co2 we stay with it.... humans are so lazy (he says sitting in bed redface)


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hobgob
SILVER Member since Jun 2006

hobgob

Member
Location: Morley, Leeds

Total posts: 55
Posted:Ah the old Climate change problem... always guaranteed to cause a stir.

There is no denying that the climate is changing and that we (as humans) have a part in it.

But it does irritate me when people start stating things are facts and giving definate causes and effects, especially when there are unknown quantities which greatly effect what people are saying.

For instance, in the Carbon cycle there is a vast amount of Carbon (not sure of the exact amount but I belive it to be millions of tons) that is totaly unaccounted for, scientist don't know where it goes or what it does, it just disapeers and turns up again later - as CO2 is a greenhouse gas surely this would effect the climate? you'd think so but it doesn't get mentioned too often.

And apearing on the BBC website today: Arctis sea level dropping..... so parts of the seas are dropping? doesn't quite add up to the global rise in sea levels.

And how about one side of the arctic ice sheet is actually getting thicker? you don't see that one much as it doesn't fit in with the scary 'Global Warming' picture.

All these 'little' things should highlight that when you hear a scientist lecturing on Global Warming, it's more than likely he doesn't know everything and as such his 'facts' should really be taken as 'theories'.

In conclusion: (in other words I've just finished ranting and reread what I've typed and will now clarify it so that people don't shout at me (too much))

The climate is changing (and always has been throughout the history of the earth so it's possible what we are experiencing is just normal environmental behaviour)

Humans definatley have a part in it (although no-one knows how big a part and all the scientific figures are estimates as they have nothing to compare them to)

'Cleaner' renewable energy is definatley better than fossil fuels etc as it does less damage to the ecosystem and environment (have a look at the clear skies website for more information.)

Hob

ubbidea


life is like a roadtrip.... The idea is not to arrive at your destination in a pristine showroom model, but rather to slide in sideways in a battered jalopy hanging out the window screaming "wow what a ride..."

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: Mr Majestik



no, 2+2= whatever you say.



and yes, if skifields that have been skiable year round for over 100 years suddenly are starting to get dry patches i would say the climate is changing.



how much of an effect CO2 emmisions and other human activities are having is debatable, but change is certain.





are we blaming ethopia on co2 emissions too wink



now i haven't seen the movie,so take this with a grain of salt, but just from the conversation-is this like when people left the day after tomorrow and believed that this all would happen in 24hrs rolleyes just in "factual" terms


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:woot for the day after tomorrow.... umm

then again i remember reading about the supposed super cyclones that they have in it - where freezing air from the upper atmosphere is brought down ... but i cant remember where.... frown

found it here i have no idea how good a model this is or anything but its an interesting read


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:a http://www.csicop.org/scienceandmedia/blockbuster/


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I haven't seen the film but I did ask this ouija board 'does global warming exist' and it said yes...



And since that's more scientific than some of those above posts, I'd say we should trust it.



ubblol


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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daize
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

daize

member
Location: Falmouth, Cornwall

Total posts: 175
Posted:It said no to me tongue

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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:lol even the oujia board argues with itself....

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:Didn't do squat for me. How am I meant to work this damn thing?

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Mine just sits there and doesn't say anything. I tried shaking it like the magic 8 ball, but I'm still not getting an answer.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:
i love how staatistics and numbers have no relevance whatsoever about reality, and truth, whatever it is, can be framed into whatever you choose to believe. don't ever believe a number given to you with a message behind it.

i do know this much. about 1.5 years ago i read an article in a large reputable newspaper which talked about how the pentagon is spending a lot of money resesrching and planning for scenarios of climate change, including martial law and large scale food distribution, as well as prison camp management. okay, fine, any excuse to be prepared is a good excuse when you have billions to spend on pointlessness. key in the article was the quote by GEORGE BUSH stating that "we'll just have to adjust to the coming changes" referring to the fact that soon the climate will have changed enough to turn our midwest states into a dust bowl and that the breadbasket would be crippled leaving us needing to import our staple crops, etc. the rest is lost in my brain.

after that day i've seen the spin and counter spin all as distractive discourse, the juice came from the man himself. who cares why at this point, it's too late! if we can at least prepare then we will make it through okay.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:You guys can't even get the ouija board to work?

The spirits must hate you.

ubblol


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: _khan_


While it's true that evidence for both sides of the argument can be found, when what's at stake is the ecosystem upon which all life on Earth depends, I think erring on the side of caution (conservation) is the preferable course.




+1 khan.

If you were in a space suit, or underwater using scuba equipment, you wouldn't go pumping pollution into your oxygen supply, scraping it against rocks and generally stabbing it a bit. It might be fine, but really, you don't know how it works or how to fix it, so best not to mess with it.

But then the level of responsibility in todays society is tiny. And governments and people both encorage less responsibility, so we're all going to get what's coming to us. Or our kids are, and their kids etc.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I hope some are reassured that not everyone has their head buried in the sand, or ouija board.

The Victorian (Australia) Government's Greenhouse web site

The Victorian Government is committed to playing its part in national and international efforts to address the threat of climate change. This web site provides information about the comprehensive suite of actions led by the Victorian Government to address climate change.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Greenhouse gases 'under-reported' 22jun06

"MANY countries may be grossly underestimating the quantity of greenhouse gases they emit according to a new method of monitoring output, scientists said today.

The new "top-down" system measures the actual amount of gases such as carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere, compared with the traditional "bottom-up" method which estimates what is likely to be produced on the ground.

The findings, still the subject of scientific debate, could destabilise the European Union's fledgling carbon trading system and have implications for the Kyoto Treaty."


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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