Forums > Social Discussion > lets talk about women and their eggs and breeding

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The_Magnesium_Master


journeyman
Location: Brisbane, Queensland,

Total posts: 97
Posted:This should stir up some interesting replies.

Recently I have been thinking that not only does a woman only shed around 450 eggs in her reproductive years, and only about half when she can afford to breed, but that these eggs must deteriorate while they wait their turn to leave the ovary aswell.

Would this result in a long term decay of the genetics of those who are way down the line in a series of people who have delayed their breeding untill their late 30 s or longer for many generations.

So considering this, what do you all think is the optimum age to breed, assuming economic and lifestyle factors did not matter, and assuming the availability of a partner to breed with aswell.


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:ubblol just curious as to where your getting the "long term decay of the genetics" from

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:ubblol nice way of putting it.
Biologically speaking, I think the optimum "age to breed" for human females is between 17-23 years of age, as their bodies can recover quicker, etc blah blah.
however, realistically speaking, the optimum time to breed is a) when both parents are ready to make that commitment and b) when the female feels she is mature enough and responsible enough and has the means to care for a child.
smile


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: The_Magnesium_Master


Would this result in a long term decay of the genetics of those who are way down the line in a series of people who have delayed their breeding untill their late 30 s or longer for many generations.



Not really no. You don't loose genes as you get older and genes in eggs or sperm of a very old person would be selected from the same set as they would have beed when that person was very young.

AFIK, genetically, it doesn't matter what age you are. As Jo said, there are many other factors that should be thought about.

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The_Magnesium_Master


journeyman
Location: Brisbane, Queensland,

Total posts: 97
Posted:If I remember correctly ovarian eggs are not produced in adults, and probably even after birth or a few months thereafter (dont quote me on that , its a fare while ago).

It would therefor follow that they acumulate damage with age, and that this must be heritable. sperm are produced continually, but they are only as good as the one they got coppied from.



If the amount of damage acrued is not linear but is disproportionally higher in older eggs eg 10 units of damage in a 20 year old egg but 100 units in a 40 year old egg, then over several generations more genetic decay should occur by breeding slowly off the stale eggs than breeding more rapidly with the fresh ones. eg 120 years of breeding at 20 =60 units vs 300 units for 3 generations of 40 year olds.



If the amount of decay is directly proportional to the age of the eggs I guese it would not matter.



Mabey damage is reparable up to a certain amount, then beyond that point the trend is to webbed feet and 2 heads, before that and the offspring are true to type indefinitly. Or is breeding always going to be like re copying a photocopy of itself until we are are all unrecognisable as humans.



Hopefully someone here knows cos I'm too lazy to look that up at the moment.


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:you're right, us women have our eggs inside us from birth, and everything we do from drink, to drugs, to smoking damages our unborn children we have inside us.

Men on the other hand, are continually producing sperm.

Although it's important to make sure our eggs are safe, it's also important to think about the future of the child, not just the pregancy and optimum time of conception.

It's a totally unique thing to each woman, my friend had her baby at 19 and is a great mother, however my mum didnt have me til she was 35.


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sunbeam
SILVER Member since Nov 2001

sunbeam

old hand
Location: Madrid, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1032
Posted:its true that men are continually producing sperm but drinking drugs and smoking also affect mens fertility

i agree with what jo says, about the future of the child. Also that it is an individual thing and you cant (even theoretically) just ignore economic or lifestyle factors because they are not going to go away

I just think women should have children when theyve lived a bit, and have stuff to teach them, and some good stories to tell them.


"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

sunny

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jemima (jem)
SILVER Member since Dec 2002

jemima (jem)

Pooh-Bah
Location: london, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1750
Posted:I don't know too much about the bioligical facts but yes its never good to abuse your body as it can cause birth defects, I don't think it relates too much or as much just being older. It will only be your general health that might cause problems.

Jo: 23??! help I've only a year left wink wink winkubblol

Eva: Yes I agree its good to have lived to tell storys and be responisble about the future of the child, they don't stay tiny for long ubbrollsmile
You have to be a role model to them too.

I guess you must consider too if you are at an age where you will be able to support the child until they leave home.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4199839.stm


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Jem I'm 25 and I'm not planning on having kids til i'm settled down and have a house- which by the looks of things won't be for a loooong time!!! hug
P.S- dogs are way more fun than kids anyway wink


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jemima (jem)
SILVER Member since Dec 2002

jemima (jem)

Pooh-Bah
Location: london, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1750
Posted:Me too hun me too hug

Because we are sensible ladiescool


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:biggrin

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:We're LAY-DEES! We like handkerchiefs and parasols and .....Sh*t. ubblol
By the way sym, I bet you're relieved. Also, can we get a puppy? Can we? Can we!! biggrin ubblol


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DrBoo
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

DrBoo

I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom

Total posts: 453
Posted:Apologies that this is slightly offtopic but can I butt in to this thread to make a sort-of related plea?
I've recently been told that there is an insanely desperate shortage of donor eggs and sperm in the UK (apparently as a result of the loosening in anonymity rules) leaving many many couples without the chance of having a child that is biologically part of that couple. 2 clinics have shut down recently, and apparently there is only one donor for all of Oxfordshire (although I've not verified this latter point as fact).
The fact that usually women are born with 450 eggs, even if they're all not able to become viable embryos, it just struck me that this is still lots, compared to some women who have none that are viable.
I for one, plan to donate some of the spare ones I have kicking about (although I may wait and use the ones I want first...).
There are some lovely people on this site, and I just want to say that it would be wonderful if any of you feel able to donate a very special gift to a couple.

Just wanted to plea. Thanks.

But also, I agree, the optimum age is not necessarily bilogical, which I think, Jo, you hinted at in your first post. But biologically, I thought it was meant to 18-26, this article refers to it as 25-35. But this one (hmmm...the Mail) reckon doctors say it starts at 20.

There's always a line, or cut off point. But it must vary depending on the individual mustn't it? i.e. some women who start periods later etc, may be "biologically optimal" for childbirth later than someone who hits puberty earlier?


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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...

Total posts: 1107
Posted:There is a decline in the quality of the egg as you age, apparently the better ones get shed first, when biologically you're all go for spawning. How 'decline' is defined in terms of genetics I don't know, but it's the reason why you're at a higher risk of chromosonal abnormality (like Down's Syndrome) as you get older.

Apparently men produce better quality sperm when there's a risk of competition and theirs has to get to the egg first, but their two lower brains (bless 'em) can't tell the difference between real and fictional, so if you want a better chance of conceiving, whatch an 'alternative' video first.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux, Ireland

Total posts: 403
Posted:How much competition?
Annabel Chong levels?


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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted: Written by: The_Magnesium_Master


This should stir up some interesting replies.

Recently I have been thinking that not only does a woman only shed around 450 eggs in her reproductive years, and only about half when she can afford to breed, but that these eggs must deteriorate while they wait their turn to leave the ovary aswell.

Would this result in a long term decay of the genetics of those who are way down the line in a series of people who have delayed their breeding untill their late 30 s or longer for many generations.



the eggs may deteriorate but i wouldn't have thought that the DNA itself could deteriorate, can it? Because otherwise wouldn't we kind of deteroriate with it? or is that actually what happens when we age?? your dna falls apart so your hair colour changes etc...? anybody know??


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if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Egg harvest is a very unpleasant process, whether for your own use or not. The body is normally made to superovulate and the pain is intense.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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jemima (jem)
SILVER Member since Dec 2002

jemima (jem)

Pooh-Bah
Location: london, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1750
Posted: Written by: NOn


the eggs may deteriorate but i wouldn't have thought that the DNA itself could deteriorate, can it? Because otherwise wouldn't we kind of deteroriate with it? or is that actually what happens when we age?? your dna falls apart so your hair colour changes etc...? anybody know??



Hormones levels I think change when we age, menopause and all that. Tis why some people have HRT insn't it ?


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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:so presumably your DNA is still intact, which is why cloning is supposed to work... reckon therefore that you couldn't say the DNA itself deteoriates, so babies shouldn't mutate if they come from older mothers smile

it must have more to do with the health of the womens body overall... I wonder if this pregnant 63 year old at the moment is having HRT....


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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jemima (jem)
SILVER Member since Dec 2002

jemima (jem)

Pooh-Bah
Location: london, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1750
Posted:Grr I want to do my biology a level again rolleyes

I know mutagens change our DNA...........


Dammit I'm buying a biology book mad I want to know the answers smile


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moonwalker_1982


newbie


Total posts: 2
Posted:shi t you're a dumbarse motherfukker, where do you come up with this shi t? and how do you classify yourself as a scientist?? Maybe scientology with the rest of those crackpot retards is the closest you will get to being a "scientist" just because you think of things that are on the track of scientific doesn't make you a scientist, it makes you an idiot for thinking you are.

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arsn


arsn

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Location: Behind the couch...

Total posts: 1903
Posted:This book might help...

Non-Https Image Link


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jemima (jem)
SILVER Member since Dec 2002

jemima (jem)

Pooh-Bah
Location: london, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1750
Posted: Written by: moonwalker_1982



shi t you're a dumbarse motherfukker, where do you come up with this shi t? and how do you classify yourself as a scientist?? Maybe scientology with the rest of those crackpot retards is the closest you will get to being a "scientist" just because you think of things that are on the track of scientific doesn't make you a scientist, it makes you an idiot for thinking you are.





who said they were a scientist?


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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand

Total posts: 1799
Posted:i tried turning the pages but nothing happened.

the book didnt help at all frown

yeah the older women are when they conceive the more degraded the eggs are, and consequently, the more chance of abnormalities occuring....

magnesium is great for cramps, and for destressing. go the parasympathetic!


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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KatP
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

KatP

Muddy fingernails
Location: Way oop norf, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 505
Posted:Depends on what you mean by 'deteriorate'.

The DNA contained within egg cells doesn't deteriorate. Women are born with a set number in their ovaries, which are then allowed to mature - usually at the rate of 1 per month. The DNA within the eggs was copied when the egg formed.

DNA contains structures called telomeres - kind of like little extra bits of DNA - at each end. Their function is to protect the ends of the DNA from being damaged. Each time a piece of DNA is copied, some of the telomeres are lost, so every time a cell replicates, the DNA in it and the 'daughter' cell have fewer telomeres, so less protection from damage and increased risk of problems. This is why cloning of adult species results in a relatievly short life span before problems occur.

Haven't specifically studied production of egg cells, so not sure how this impacts, but suspect eggs produced later in the 'egg production process' may be more susceptible to damage. Tjis would explain why 'better' eggs are used up first - first produced = first in the queue so to speak. Guessing on that point, but makes sense.

I have no use for any of my eggs, so anyone who wants them can have them. Although I have no particular wish to be contacted by genetic offspring in the future, so have so far refrained from donating. They recently changed legislation on donating in the UK aswell, think this has made it rather more awkward.


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say_cheese
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

say_cheese

Brown
Location: Behind You!, United Kingdom

Total posts: 288
Posted:As some have said women are born with a set number of cells (oocytes). There are around 1 million in women when they are born. The generation of "eggs" starts very early. Usualy just after the ovaries of the fetus have developed. These cells then begin to differnciate ....im wont go in to the details ..... but they enter the first stages of meiosis...this is the important bit....unlike other cells in the body these will stop in the early stages of meiosis just after there has been crossing over of the chromatids...by stop i mean to say the cells are in a state as if suspended animation....they can as we know remain like this for many years. As for Genectic degredation of DNA there are many systems in place that ensure all cells have the correct DNA and that any mutations or anomalies are repaired almost as soon as the occur.

anyhoo thats my 2 cents......

smile


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Asena
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

Asena

What a Bummer
Location: Shatfield, Hertfordshire, Unit...

Total posts: 3224
Posted:Go heddwyn, thats all I have to say on this matter wink

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say_cheese
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

say_cheese

Brown
Location: Behind You!, United Kingdom

Total posts: 288
Posted:Yeah Go Heddwyn!

i knew this degree would come in handy for something someday

ubblol


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