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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Resolve: Some people are less ethical within their closest relationship.
Resolve: Some people confuse "legal honesty" with "ethically truthfulness"

[See how nice I made it for the 'skimmers'... now they don't even need to read the below crap! wink ]

I know there have been a few 'ethics' discussions and a few 'relationships' discussions but I think that some have been missing the point that it's essentially the same thing. Many relationship problems arise from one partner abandoning ethics and acting selfishly.

Please note that this has nothing to do with any relationships that I am in or have had. It's actually based on the contrast between those relationships and some of the relationships that I see others having. Of course, we all have those friends with completely dysfunctional relationships. I had neighbors two floors down that yelled whenever they'd have any minor disagreement. I then had an eye opening realization:

A large number of people will distinguish between "legally" and "ethically" when making decisions within their relationships.

How many times have you heard (or said) stuff like this:

"I never lied, I just left out a portion of the story"
OK, LEGALLY, that's true. You never lied. But ETHICALLY you have purposely and directly mislead someone.

"I never said that I'd be there, I said that I'd PROBABLY be there" (when, in fact, you had no intent of being there)
Again, LEGALLY that would stand up in court, but ETHICALLY you purposely deceived someone to get your way. Most, if not all, ethical discrepancies occur when someone is being selfish.

"I said I was going to the library and I did. I just left out the fact that I went to the library for 5 minutes and spend the rest of the 3 hours at the strip club"
Legally sound, ethically unsound.

"Hey, you never ASKED me specifically if I [slept withthat guy/was at the bar all night/went home early/took all of your money/saw you drop your passport/etc]."
Heh, again... legally true, ethically deceptive.

Some people seem to speak in technicallities and legal-ese to 'get away' with ethical crimes. People reading back transcripts of conversation like evidence in a trial. "Your Honor, my client stated that she did not check her messages so she could then use the phrase "I did not get your message" without it being an actual lie"

Look at most sitcom plots involving married couples. Many of the major plots come from one spouse trying to deceive the other...
A few which use that as a MAJOR plot device are:
Everybody loves Raymond
King of Queens
Whatever that god awful show with Jim Bellushi is
The Simpsons (We all love the show but it's usually funny because Homer is being destructively selfish)
Pretty much ever "Teen" show on TV (OC, One Tree Hill, etc.)
So many more... even such classics as "I love Lucy" is usually Lucy trying to trick Ricky into getting what she wants at his expense and failing.

Now I'm not criticizing these people entirely. Because most of them are truly good people in other areas of their lives. But why would someone who would take the time to return a wallet they found on the street or protest human rights injustices not give the same ethical respect to their significant other?

Are there people out there like me who think a relationship is a partnership? Does anyone else view their partner as a teammate? Or are most couples just content being competitive and fighting over every bone?

I understand that there is compromise in all relationships. But how can one claim to be an ethical person when one bases relationships on manipulation and control? I remember in High School my very first relationship was horribly based on manipulation and deception. I vowed never to have a relationship like that again. It made me feel horrible about myself.

I've seen so many posts on HoP (and everywhere else in the planet of course) where relationships turn into "Guys vs. Girls"... "Oh here's how to control men" "Oh here's how you can get what you want from your girlfriend" "Oh here's how you can trick your spouse into..."

It might be 'legal' to manipulate and deceive, but it sure isn't ethical.

Am I one of the few that thinks that?
Am I one of the few that actually acts on ethical thoughts as opposed to "what I could probably get away with" in a relationship?

We're a community that spends hours spinning little balls on the end of strings. Yet it seems that some aren't putting the same amount of time and effort into nurturing those that are most dear to us. I'm sorry if this sounds preachy but it just never seemed that difficult for two adults to have an honest and sincere relationship, I'm curious as to why so many people chose not to.

Or, is this like most things where 98% of the people have legally honest AND ethically honest relationships but you only hear about the other 2%? smile


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Bullet 1: I don't think people confuse what legal honesty and ethical truthfulness are so much as they just think legal honesty is all they need in their relationships. Thus, they don't understand, in many cases, that they should be ethically truthful in their closest relationships, and perhaps don't even belive that they or anyone should be!

Bullet 2: I belive less than 2% of people have ethically honest relationships.

New Question 1: Is there a justification for sticking to legal rather than ethical honesty in relationships with people you don't like and arn't close to, if they make ethical honesty displeasant?

Post:


No, I'd bet less than 2% of people have ethically honest relationships. Far less, even. And I've met people who even seem to think its how life should be???!

I've turned people away because I was honest, in relationships. And they didn't like what I said. (And in many cases wondered why I would say it, altho not, thank god for my sanity, in all.)

My disclaimer is that honesty is not best in 100% of situations. People will take the fact that I say this and misuse it till they're blue in the face, but there are situations where it doesn't benefit anyone. Not many, but they exist, and I've had to accept this.

On the other hand, the kind of legal/ethical carping you're actually using in your example is a bunch of bullshit and people should just confess and get over themselves. Not that people seem to want to take responsibility for their actions, or, as they see it, "lose", but I agree, they SHOULD.

And now I'm going to bring this around full circle and make some statements which are going to confuse you all and cause you to yell at me (and yeah, I'm sure I deserve it). I can't stand that kind of [censored] in romantic relationships or close friendships. Seeing it in more distant relationships causes me to keep them distant. But I reguarly engage in such practices with my family, albeit none of the actual argueing and mostly just the not telling them stuff at all or telling them clipped bits of stuff and purposefully leaving a lot out. I don't live with them, I'm not close to them, and in at least 99% of cases I'm not actually trying to deceive them for any other reason than to avoid spending three or ten hours of my life that I'll never get back arguing about why I'm doing something. But is there justification even in doing it in distant cases, or is it always a bad thing?

(Sorry to add to your questions nyc!)


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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pricklyleaf
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1365
Posted:I really hope and think it would be more than 2%. Few relationships would survive on long-term, serious dishonesty.

I've fairly recently come out of a dishonest 'relationship'. This guy seemed very sweet and shy, the kind of guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, my friend who knows him thinks the same. He, at least with his friends, is very attentive and caring.

But when it came to me, he failed to tell me one 'slightly' vital piece of information, until two months after I started seeing him, and only after me bullying him to tell me what it was he wanted to tell me. That being he already has a girlfriend, who he is in an open relationship with. Needless to say I finished it there and then.

So I would say from first hand, that some people definately loose their morals when it comes to those they should be holding in the most respect. This guy, who will be there for his friends no matter what, was just going to finish it with me, without telling me why.

The reason he left it so late, was because he was scared of hurting me, and in the short-term, being dishonest, and leading me on further by trying to make up for his dishonesty with kindness, was what he saw the best way to do things, but of course, the long-term eventually caught up.

After this experience, I would be very reluctant to date someone who seems shy and nice, because I would seriously doubt as to whether they would have the strength to tell me and communicate if something was wrong. The guy makes a good friend, but a rubbish boyfriend.

In my opinion, I believe honesty is the best policy, things have a habit of catching up with you in the long term. (Unless its does my bum look big in this). But thats the problem. Where do you draw the line? The problem with lies is that they have a habit of escaltaing out of control, and different people have very different tolerance levels of whats acceptable.

I personally hate even telling white lies. Unfortunaltly occasionally they seem to just leak out of my mouth before I'm even aware of whats happened, and I seriously try to minimise the frequency of this occuring. And if someones got a new haircut that makes them look awful, then the diplomatic truth is always a good way to go. It looks different wink


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Kyrian


(Sorry to add to your questions nyc!)



I guess it's not 'legally' hijacking a discussion if you hijack the thread before it actually becomes a discussion right? It's just ETHICALLY hijacking the thread. ubblol

To respond while redirecting... I think it makes sense that we are less ethical with those people whom we do not enjoy being around. If there's a family member or coworker that we do not enjoy being around I'd suspect that people would be more likely to do anything to get out of seeing them. It's the fact that people are being unethical with significant others that they have chosen to spend the rest of their lives with.

In an ideal world we'd be ethical with everyone. But in the real world I'd hope we'd at least be ethical with those we love most.


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Good reply NYC. And good redirect. World, consider my question answered.

And personally I find it amazing what relationships survive, not just dishonesty but even abuse. It might not actually be what it looks like on the surface... and even so, many many relationships end. Some of them end well, with no dishonesty, but its not the norm. And I think some of the problem is that people who are supposed to be significant others just arn't significant enough to the person....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:I find myself ethically honest with my Significant Other and my Friends, and "Legally" honest with my parents, sister and teachers. A la:

"Yes Sir, my essay is in my room, I will go and get it after this lesson to hand it in" - The fact that the essay is not, in fact, finished doesn't ever arise wink

But again, I don't see why people lie in relationships. If you have to lie then there is a problem with either you or your partner that it would be better to work out quickly, before more lies build up. If you can't be honest with your lover, then who the hell can you be honest with? Again and again and again, relationships fail because of a lack of communication. Just look at how Othello turned out...

In most situations where you might be tempted to lie in a relationship, it can generally be solved by 5 minutes of serious talking over, which will garner you more respect and love than all the dissembling in the world.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I am with you on this one NYC...

One reason is because some want it all - at the same time and are not mature enough to tell their partner (and yes I see a girlfriend as a partner and team-mate, too) what they want and do because they ffear not to get accepted... Some simply can't stand up and to themselves... shrug that's yet to be learned...

My personal conclusion to this is to specifically ASK girls: Do you have a boyfriend? And: Tell me your "dirty" secrets - no worries it's allright...

Thanks for this thread btw, I too guess this needed to be said smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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norde


norde

member
Location: Bangor, Norn Iron

Total posts: 39
Posted: Written by: FireTom





My personal conclusion to this is to specifically ASK girls: Do you have a boyfriend? And: Tell me your "dirty" secrets - no worries it's allright...



Thanks for this thread btw, I too guess this needed to be said smile





don't forget to tell her your 'dirty' secrets as well wink



much better to get this out sooner than later or it can tear you apart, fester and ultimately destroy any trust and respect you have for each other



legally/ethically - doesn't really matter how you label it, i think most off us know the difference between right and wrong when it effects an others feelings, etc



then again, some people just don't have a conscious confused


Love me when i least deserve it... cause that is when i need it the most

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:ditto

hug

Morning smile

(christ, slightly pointless post... will think about this and post later)


Getting to the other side smile

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm My dirty secrets? As what? My sexual preferences, my past? That I haven't been with a woman in 10 months (due to a strange long distance mindf**k relationship)?

See there is a balance to be found between "smartly advertising" yourself and "eat or die"...

IMO there are certain things that need to get clarified: One is "what is this going to be?" A friendship? An affair? A relationship?

This greatly determins the next approach, doesn't it?

But then again, who can tell from the start what it's going to be in the future? Things develop, friendships can turn into affairs/ relationships...

Best (IMHO) is to be(come) FRIENDS in the first place. Anything else has to grow and evolve from this basis... If you can't be friends - how can you be lovers? (except for the obvious)... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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norde


norde

member
Location: Bangor, Norn Iron

Total posts: 39
Posted: Written by: FireTom


That I haven't been with a woman in 10 months (due to a strange long distance mindf**k relationship)?



i understand that one alright - it takes time, took me best part of two years to get my confidence and faith in relationships/women back after a long term relationship... don't push it - i also think its good to dip to toe in the water (so to speak), get your confidence back... get into the swing of a relationship again albeit if it is only a 1-2 week fling....before you maybe enter into a new, more meaningful relationship. Thats the path i took and its turned out to all good

 Written by: FireTom


umm My dirty secrets? As what? My sexual preferences, my past?



really only you can answer this, if there are certain things about your past that would upset/bother you if the shoe was on the other foot, then you can be pretty sure its information you should be sharing with her..... you can't expect her to reveal all and yet you wanting to be only partially giving ? can you ?

if you tell her later she could see this as deception, and BANG. there goes your trust.... we all know were that leaves us

 Written by: FireTom


See there is a balance to be found between "smartly advertising" yourself and "eat or die"...

IMO there are certain things that need to get clarified: One is "what is this going to be?" A friendship? An affair? A relationship?

This greatly determins the next approach, doesn't it?

But then again, who can tell from the start what it's going to be in the future? Things develop, friendships can turn into affairs/ relationships...



i know exactly where your coming from with this one.... i've been in a very similar situation myself.
Its a tough one..... but i think you gotta follow your gut instinct - i was in a situation with a friend were i was unsure as to what direction it was taking. BUT there were certain things about myself/past i felt she really needed to know before the friendship possibly took on a new meaning... (sheesssshhhh... this is hard to put into words, so i hope u get were im comin from)
It eat me up for days/weeks as to weather or not i was able to share this information about myself... this is were true friendship and trust really comes into it and if thats not there to start with then should you really be thinking about a relationship with this person ?

again you can take a different outlook to this, are you looking a 'bit of fun' or a 'serious relationship' with that person........ but then again your 'bit of fun' might turn out to be your soul mate.... then WTF do you do ??? you've maybe already spent months of turmoil about sharing your past, and you can be sure at this stage its gonna be harder to share that info.

its a tough call....... but follow your heart.
I decided to tell all when we were still friends, and i felt sooo much better for it even then.... since then the friendship has blossomed ubblove into a relationship and its fantastic that we both had shared our troubled past - personally if i hadn't got it off my chest b4 then i know i wouldn't be sleeping well and it would never be out of my thoughts... and me and the old 'stress' thing don't get on to well angry

 Written by: FireTom


Best (IMHO) is to be(come) FRIENDS in the first place. Anything else has to grow and evolve from this basis... If you can't be friends - how can you be lovers? (except for the obvious)... wink



^^^^ ditto

go with your instincts - listen to that little voice in your head....... oooopppsss or is it only me that hears the voices

please don't see the above as preaching.. im just tryin to share mypast experiences with you... hopefully you can get something from this - me i think i just earned a few more greay hairs (and lost a few) working out what was best for me

thats my rambling done... hope you can make sense of it (or at least some) biggrin

take it easy bro, all will work itself out


Love me when i least deserve it... cause that is when i need it the most

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:*gg* don't mind the advice my friend hug but pls do not project on me smile ubblol

If I'm attracted to a woman, I show it. If the interest is vice versa - perfect, let's have lunch, talk and see. I exclusively go by instinct now, have learned some painful lessons in the past... smile

"Dirty" is in the eye of the beholder... "nasty", too. Personally I'm not easy to be shocked anymore, as I've seen and experienced quite a bit already... Lies always come around the next corner and the only one who really feels like s**t afterwards is the one who lied, or was hiding something really important.

Having said this: What is "really important"?

Doesn't it depend on the level of relationship that both aim for? Sometimes people feel a lot more confident in telling a perfect stranger their darkest secrets, than to someone they are interested in. Yeah this might be stupid, but this is the way it is.

People want to show themselves in the best candlelight possible - disregarding that the pushup only causes disappointment when it comes to the bare facts... rolleyes Important is to find out "What this is" in the first place... and then to go from there. To lie about whether or not someone is in a(nother) relationship, or has serious STD's - that is pretty stupid and only demonstrates the level of maturity.

And bottom line (once more) is: If you can't be yourself, being with someone else, why bother at all? Unless you want to be this image and the other is not interested in anything else... but make sure you verified! umm

Many relationships are fake and to most it's a trial and error game until they are past their twens. Then either be this fassade for the rest of your life or bothered of making something up all the time...

My personal advice? Don't fake it - be yourself and "proud" of it. There is nothing wrong, but lying about ones self... shrug at least IMHO

I personally like to be as open and honest as possible - and not only in the beginning. I do not want to brush myself up, but WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get)... I didn't even replace the tooth someone extracted in a cowardly fight... if she can't get beyond the missing tooth in my smile, she won't be able to face the other scars that I carry a bit deeper inside... shrug

And further: A friend visiting a friend in Bali. Porn is illegal there and he therefore asked his friend to bring him a magazine from Europe. After his wife left the room, the friend discretely handed him the mag in a brown paperbag-envelope. Instead of hiding it immediately, he was surprisingly opening it up and browsing through the pages even when his wife came back into the room. Her reaction was as if nothing special is going on, but sitting next beside him husband and browsing along. Noticing the amazed expression on the visitors face, she turned to him and simply said: "Well that's how men are." shrug

Besides all I find this pretty mature reaction and could only compliment both upon it cool

As to refer in this context to one example NYC initially stated: If you're fond of going to the stripclub - tell her. As much as she should be able to tell you that she's dreaming of a threesome.... (for example) rolleyes

In a relationship there should be an atmosphere of trust and not an atmosfear of suspicion... If both hide their true story, they both get mad in their heads and screw up the relationship any which way, sooner or later... and then better soon, before there are children suffering from this...

Not preaching - just my personal opinion, based on rendered experience... wink hug

Sorry that my post gained length and may have bothered the audience redface


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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norde


norde

member
Location: Bangor, Norn Iron

Total posts: 39
Posted:nicely put beerchug

Love me when i least deserve it... cause that is when i need it the most

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razza
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

member
Location: Helensburgh

Total posts: 43
Posted:did u guys hear what happned over my way in australia if not heres the story
a group of about 5- 10 lebeanease gusy about 18-25 years of aged attacked to surflife savers then the whole next week there was a phone msg goign round to all aussie people say " everyone get ur mates and go to cronulla on saturday t oshow these wogs wat were r made of" so of course everyone went and started abusing WOGs and anyone of ethnic background. the riot squad were called in and heaps of people got arrseted that nite all the 16 - 25 YEAR old wogs got together and started rioting thru cronulla that nite and smashed car houses shops


Horsepower is how fast u hit a tree. Tourqe is how far the tree goes with u

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:huh? umm and that is relevant to this thread how?

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:*Picks up & dusts off the thread*

Seriously guys, this thread was very interesting to read. Please come back.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:*waits for more input from Rozi* wink

Any more fe/males interested in disposing their comments, story, intentions?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted: Written by: FireTom



*waits for more input from Rozi* wink







Seeing as you asked nicely wink



My personal opinion is that once you move past the whole "honesty" thing, to a stage where it is automatic to be straightforward with the one you are seeing, you begin to explore a whole other level of complexity. Which is a good thing, but sometimes a painful thing.



You find out about your own inner conflicts. You dosciver how to be honest with yourself about what you feel and what you want. Its kinda a nice stage.



biggrin


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I think so, too Rozi... because looking deep(er) into the mirror, you start to see the one who is behind the mask... try it sometimes and look into the eyes... a little deeper and a little deeper... you'll be amazed...

Look at every thought that's coming up, where it came from and where it goes to...

Honesty is one thing - autenticity in every moment sometimes a different... much like the gap between theory and practical... wink

Thanks for mentioning that smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I dunno. I don't really think of myself as having much of a mask.

What you see is what you get.

I think that's what honesty is. Especially when you're dealing with partners and yourself.


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted: Written by: NYC


I dunno. I don't really think of myself as having much of a mask.

What you see is what you get.





Then you are a very lucky man, with a very lucky woman.

Its not so much about a mask, it is more about blind spots to your own character, or even your own desires. I have lots of little areas of "ow" which I am not necessarily aware of until they happen.

I am finding it hard to give a non-contentious example that explains what I mean. Basically it is about the things you think you want, vs what you really need. Not so black and white.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think the accuracy of my introspection is one of my more useful qualities. The origins of it aren't always pretty but I think I got lucky in transitioning some challenging years early on into learning experiences.

I think I find the knowledge of myself one of the most grounding forces in my life.

The negative side of that is when I start thinking too much and miss the rainbows because I was thinking of the physics of refration.


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:biggrin Sucks to be intelligent wink

I know there are limits to the accuracy of my introspection, however by knowing I have a chance of fixing. My biggest problem is around what I "ought" to do overriding what I feel. I do things as a duty which sometimes I just don't want to do. And sometimes that is a good thing (like when it is about being nice to people) and sometimes it is a bad thing (when it is about denying my feelings and pushing them down).


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yes I was more referring to a physical than to a psychological "mask"... rolleyes but thanks for pinpointing at the necessity for clarification...

The physical mask is ones face, the psychological is a makeup... much as in smiling when someone in fact feels down, or the (false) answer "PERFECT!" when being asked: "How are you?"...

Do you dare to be authentic, even though it's none of your opposites concern/ it's not important at the given moment?

See, psychological speaking the mind finds myriads of loopholes for "lies" - especially if it's intelligent...

The ability to lie at others is only reflecting the ability to lie at oneself - wich is foolish...

However one might face the experience that the body itself is altering and surpressing natural functions (such as farting) without ones conscious intervention when encountering someone who the mind and soul is attracted to... it does it by itself (as one might notice after the encounter), not the mind consciously...

Would you classify this as unethical/ dishonesty, too?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Rozi


My biggest problem is around what I "ought" to do overriding what I feel.



Why is there a such a disconnect between what you ought to do and what you feel?

I mean, we all make sacrifices but sacrifices shouldn't make us miserable.


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: Rozi


My biggest problem is around what I "ought" to do overriding what I feel.



Why is there a such a disconnect between what you ought to do and what you feel?




Maybe its a cultural difference, maybe its a gender difference, maybe its just a me thing. I could say that it is because I am a good girl with a small "l" liberal, semi-protestant upbringing. Or like I said, maybe it is just me.

Do you remember when you were a kid, you were told to play nice? To be friends with everyone, including people you didn't like? To respond ethically and with dignity to any and every attack? To not resort to the underhand? To behave responsibly?

All these things are great things. Things I would bring my own children up to do. But what happens when you just don't want to be friends with someone? Or when you want to shout out loud and angry at something someone has done?

I find it very hard to do these things. I haven't shouted in anger in so long that I have no idea what my voice sounds like when I do (people who know me well, know that I get very precise, polite and quiet when I am really angry).

You know what, sometimes it is good to act on that honest emotion and shout. To stop being good and to be honest in your reactions as well as your words.

The simplicity of your life and world view is both beguiling and confronting sometimes, Mr NYC. I wish I had your certainty at times. But I also like living in my grey areas. hug


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I don't act exactly like "me" in all circumstances either.

For one thing I have very different standards for "work" and "not-work." Work includes but is not limited to paid employment, and the issue there is single-minded focus on jobs when they have to be done. What gets weird about this is how I basically cut through a lot of attempts at humor or "friendliness" when they are sidetracking what I/we are supposed to be doing... wheras anyone who knows me in other circumstances knows I am totally distractable and in fact have a hard time finishing my sentences without interjecting unrelated ones in the middle first....

And for another I can get overwhelmed easily at times and this makes me shy and touchy and generally just very strange compared to normal....

So what you see changes with and without reason... but it makes me seem very different to what I would think of as my natural personality, all based on distance as the differences with people I am close to gradually approach zero regardless of the situation so there must be something mildly dishonest about it in some fashion....

or?


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Rozi



Do you remember when you were a kid, you were told to play nice? To be friends with everyone, including people you didn't like? To respond ethically and with dignity to any and every attack? To not resort to the underhand? To behave responsibly?

The simplicity of your life and world view is both beguiling and confronting sometimes, Mr NYC. I wish I had your certainty at times. But I also like living in my grey areas. hug



Well I looked up "beguiling" in the dictionary and got two different definitions:

adj 1: highly attractive and able to arouse hope or desire;

2: misleading by means of pleasant or alluring methods;

I'll assume that you meant the first. smile

As for 'pressures put on me as a kid'... I certainly wasn't pressured to be friends with everyone. I live in New York, I couldn't even shake hands with 'everyone'. When I think of 'being raised' I think of my mom attempting to instil a sense of balance. There were times to be honest and times to be polite. There were times to stand up for yourself and times to pick other battles.

Everything is grey, I understand.

I think what's difference is the fact that we're talking about a significant other.

I can't see "doing what I ought to do" as very far from "doing what I want" in a relationship. If there was then I'd wonder why there was such a difference.

If making your significant other happy doesn't make you happy too then there's a disconnect.

And if you're doing something that makes you miserable and your significant other doesn't accomodate that then there's a disconnect as well.

I don't do things in a relationship because I 'ought' to. I mean, I guess I would if it came down to that, but most of the things I do because I enjoy doing them.

If you do things for loved ones because you 'ought' to then you start to resent them and that becomes a spiral which can lead to passive agressiveness and misery.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:hug I think we have gone as far into psycho-analysing me as I would care to go in this thread, hun. It begins to give the impression that I am not a well-adjusted human being. I have my issues, definitely. I admit to them and try to work them out. But generally I do quite well in the world.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well somehow for a kid different ethics apply - being told so and doing it is not the same (at least it wasn`t for me)...ubblol

Whereas (apart from some social foundations of interaction) to obediently follow "the rules" IMO deminishes progress in adjusting a few regulations that are worth reconsidering...

And it somehow boils down to live with the fact that every (human) being acts more or less only according to its background and predispositions... in any environment everyone will form habits according to it. shrug

Having said this - ever came to mind that in a way we might only reflect the social patterns formed by our originating family - i.e. our parents "principle"...?

hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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norde


norde

member
Location: Bangor, Norn Iron

Total posts: 39
Posted:this has been an interesting thread, and is always good to hear others thoughts/points of view....



sooo many variables in this - culture/upbringing/age/past experiences/current circumstance, etc, etc



so how do we do the right thing ?

who should we put first - ourselves or our partners ?

our partner may have also had bad experiences making them cautious, we may also need to concider this





when do we put our trust in people we think we know ?

open up, be true to ourselves and others - albeit at the risk of being hurt again





i don't know if there is a right or wrong answer anymore confused every circumstance comes with its own complexities



is this just me? help



if i am at ease in my own mind then for that current time in my life i think im doing the right thing

treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.







ultimately it is gratifying to have that special someone to share the experiences of everyday life - its certainly a rocky road, but hopefully one day i'll reach the pinnacle







peace, love and understanding grouphug









Love me when i least deserve it... cause that is when i need it the most

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