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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > How many beats can you weave?

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ChrisGore
newbie
Location: CapeTown
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2006
Total posts: 8
Posted:I have been trying to see how many beats I can get in the weave, not that the lay audience notice the difference much but it is lank cool to do.
With my normal poi I can get to a 7/8 beat weave, but with fire I can only get to a successfull 5 beat weave.
I heard a rumor of someone doing a 13 beat weave with normal poi, which is way cool but hard to believe.
So I ask other poi enthusiasts and fire junkies...how many beats can you fit into your weave?

Chris


To spin or not to spin,
that is a stupid question.

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:not this again ubblol

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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yoni
yoni

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bideford and Bath
Member Since: 4th Jun 2005
Total posts: 3099
Posted:basically, how bendy are your arms?

UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."

Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump

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xavhan
member

Member Since: 30th Jun 2005
Total posts: 26
Posted:I can do an infinite weave!

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:even simpler, how many lockouts/isolations can you do?

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:how many beats do you know?

personnally i like to weave latin and hip hop..

sorry.


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:i've never seen any higher than a nine beat with feet planted (excluding lockouts etc. but if you do them you're not weaving are ya?)

9 beat = twist at elbows, wrists and fingers

this thread has lots of clever stuff from clever people.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:HAHAHAAHAHA!

thanks simian.. you know that's the second time some of the things in that thread (citing a thread coutns as citing everything in it right?) has been referenced in less than a week.. one day, I'm goin to make a vid of that with feet planted.. just to drop -that part- of the controversy.. I mean, if it won't die, the least I can do is fix it..


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ChrisGore
newbie
Location: CapeTown
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2006
Total posts: 8
Posted:There are different styles of the weave to get more beats,
I'm talking about the feet planted, no 180 turn weave.

The one way I saw to do a 5 beat was with a wrap, or another way that spins under the arm. However as far as I know you have to wrap to get higher than a 5 beat. Does anyone know how to get a higher beat without wraping?


To spin or not to spin,
that is a stupid question.

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Drudwyn
Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni
Member Since: 27th Aug 2005
Total posts: 632
Posted:Same thing as usual Chris, do a search! There's a hyperlink next to your name at the top of the forum. Sorry dude...

Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:14.
or so.


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:you people must be doing stuff i would not recognise as a weave

to quote simian 9 is the most that i think is anatomicaly posibal


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:Written by: Mint Sauce




you people must be doing stuff i would not recognise as a weave



to quote simian 9 is the most that i think is anatomicaly posibal





maybe this will finally clear up "turning", but i count 180 degrees of shoulder movement as a "turn" for every purpose i've ever encountered. i can turn lots of crap with my feet planted -- the clavical is the unbreakable bond between your poi, not the feet. "the jedi louise" didn't even count as a 9 to my standards. show me something >7 that doesn't wrap fingers (which i consider a tangle) and i'll almost certainly be able to show you 180 degrees of shoulder movement. there's just not enough joints in the arm...


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:dut.

9 is cake without anything funky.. infcluding twisting fingers.. you just have to realize that once your arms twist 7 you run out of room.. one hand is as high as the other wrist... but you can still witsw if you turn the higher hand back down towards the elbow.. its the only way to continue twisting at that point.. and isnt' wrap or anything funky like that.. it sounds more awkward than it is.. basically I say that anyone doing a 7 is capable of doign 9 because the difference between 7 and 9 is less than the difference between the 3 and the 5.. and way less than a 5 and a 7..

as far as going beyond 9... you have two options.. either you accept the principles underwhich a giant/longarm weave works.. or you don't... and there's really nothing wrong with either side of that debate.. it just measn that one group tops out at 9 and the other tops out at 11..

physically you can;t go beyond either of those without either a) thruwrapping or b)resorting two links (which is just a thruwrap on the string as for as this is concerned)

I have a feeling the latter is what xav is refering to (since he always plays with links), but it doesnt yield an infinite weave..



but is any of this even necessary? or are we just talking about limits here.. because regardless, noone spins this crap.. haha..


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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:i had a bunch of crap typed up and lost it. frown



if a waistwrap counts as a turn, the inverse equivalent does too. "offset inverse" is hott, but not part of the base weave sequence. a weave spirals conically outward by definition, before and after it begins to tangle. you can't cheat by "bending it back" toward the body. you either hit fingers or chains unless your shoulder dislocates or you're a contortionist once you get past 7. but i'm fully open to seeing vids of some of that any time! biggrin



-- dut



edit: sorry, someone's got to be the hardass or this will never end. wink

EDITED_BY: Dut (1142305181)


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Loewan
Loewan

and behold!
Location: Liverpool
Member Since: 11th Aug 2005
Total posts: 464
Posted:I haven't had any modifications done to my arms yet so I can only do 5. tongue

Why let your body be a temple? When it can be a theme park?

Wii Console Number: 3294 0297 7824 7498

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:Hypothetically...

If tangling the chain to add beats to weaves doesnt really count, then would it count if our arms had no bones and we could, in effect, tangle them in the same manner?


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Since we're casting spells, wouldn't it just be easier to make our arms gaseous and have them pass through each other? Would that count too ICoN? wink

I can do a one beat weave but only when nobody's looking.

biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Dut - why does twisting fingers count as wrapping, but twisting your elbows and wrists doesn't?

 Written by: ChrisGore

The one way I saw to do a 5 beat was with a wrap, or another way that spins under the arm. However as far as I know you have to wrap to get higher than a 5 beat. Does anyone know how to get a higher beat without wraping?



erm... did you read my post?

 Written by: simian

9 beat = twist at elbows, wrists and fingers



"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by: shen shui

14.
or so.



not saying i don't beleive you or anything, but...

video please biggrin


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:dut-



go to that other thread that was linked in here.. go to the vid of the 11bt motions.. scratch the last part, just focus on the 9 middle beats.. that is step by step how to do 9 without being a controtionist nor anything funky.. when you twist back down the arm you arnt crossing the strings or anything... you have to remember that the poi spin in disjuncted planes when we weave.. so when you do seven and then twist to nice it isnt cheating, nor does it dislocate... its just twisting... and so long as your twisting your arms and nothing else it doesnt matter..


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Ange_GSC
Ange_GSC

HOP's glowstick ambassador!!
Location: Bay Area, California
Member Since: 16th Aug 2005
Total posts: 128
Posted:lol, just 5 for me....I'm so special

missegyptology: "I just remember beingall off balance and unicycling really fast down to campus and the arabic was all blurred on the page"

^When Linz pulls an all nighter before Arabic class^

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted: Written by: Rev



dut-



go to that other thread that was linked in here.. go to the vid of the 11bt motions.. scratch the last part, just focus on the 9 middle beats.. that is step by step how to do 9 without being a controtionist nor anything funky.. when you twist back down the arm you arnt crossing the strings or anything... you have to remember that the poi spin in disjuncted planes when we weave.. so when you do seven and then twist to nice it isnt cheating, nor does it dislocate... its just twisting... and so long as your twisting your arms and nothing else it doesnt matter..





you mean this one??

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...ll/fpart/2/vc/1
br>


dude. haha. why don't YOU go to that other thread that's linked and read the second page, where I got into all this "7beat" limit stuff the first time with no argument from you. both your vids involve at least 360 degrees of the "beats" on each side being put in by your feet turning, not by your arms twisting.



 Written by: Rev



see the first bit.. fixed point rotation... either you accept it.. or you dont... you obviously don't... so the point is moot to you.. however.. there are some out there that believe in the efficacy of fxed point rotation ie. a longarm (giant) 3bt weave.. the whole premise of whihc is to turn the shoudlers.. so that one may actually weave using the fixed points (ala shoulders)..







i don't accept fixed point roation for the naming of moves "the X beat weave". if you accept infinite shoulder rotation, you can add infinite circles to either side that don't have to be taken out on the opposite side, which makes having a numbered move name pointless... your shoulder turned weaves are at some point not actually woven, they're "turned through". if i accept your naming convention, everyone can do infinite beat corkscrews by spinning around in circles. and that's just silly.



simian : because i'm being a hardass and there are people who wouldn't get it otherwise. "THE 9 beat" can involve finger wrapping, but it's kinda sketchy to me why you can allow one finger to wrap legally but not all 5 individually. wink i'm just applying body constraints onto poi principles. if your body has less constraints, have fun taking advantage of that, right? maybe someone out there is double jointed and can get 11+ out of spirals out through their fingers. it's not going to involve turning shoulders like everyone has been advocating so far tho. *shrug* that's my take on it.

EDITED_BY: Dut (1142361300)


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:you missed my point dut. I wasnt arguing for 11.. I was arguing for 9 and 9 doesnt invovle shoulder turning..

I refered you to that because if you exclude the shoulder turning, you are left with 9 bts.. 9bts of pure arm twisting, no finger looping, no wrapping, no hocus pocus..


as far as the infinite turning goes... that just goes to show that you completely misunderstood exactly what a fixed point rotation is.. there isnt anything higher than a 3bt giant weave.. but there is a giant 3bt weave.. and there's a reason for how those mechanics apply.. I refuse to go back into that argument because its as pointless now as it was then.. I just want to highlight that your comments show that you misunderstood the point, regardless of whether you want to accept it or not..


I'm sorry dut.. normally we tend to communicate pretty well.. but I see this disucssion as dissolving into a futile banter.. the 9bt I point you to meets the sepcifications you keep claiming it doesnt.. one day, I'll see you at the palace, and all will be clear.. until then.. peace...


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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:k, so to humour you guys i'm agreeing it's possible, but what you video'ed clearly shows you leaving your hands in the same "degree" and turning your body around 360 degrees at least once in each direction. the jedi louise used the same thing only with feet planted for a "9" which i didn't trust at the time either. i'm thinking of the math involved and do not think i'm missing any points to say that's not a base weave. if someone has the right diameter/length ratio to make 9/11/etc beats without turning their shoulders, i'm perfectly willing to believe it when i see it, but for now, all i see is vids and explanations of people turning and trying to claim it's more named beats.



if i'm not misunderstanding, you're saying that a giant 3 beat can "legally" move the shoulders like a regular 3 beat moves the hands. and that's up to 180 degrees. in the original thread, i said anything over 90 should be considered a turn, but i've actually understood more and changed it to 180 in my mind. this means you CAN get your 3 beat giant off and have it count, but if you try a giant 5 (which you agree is "impossible"), you have to move shoulders >180 degrees. so that makes it a turn. this is exactly what i said here. if you're allowed to move shoulders more than 180 degrees, you might as well keep going infinitely and call a turning corkscrew "infinite beat". i've always understood infinite chases of any "degree" to be possible if you allow turning, so you have to define some cutoff, and 180 is it, according to both our statements, right? 9 is the likely non-contortionist limit? and 7 is the limit without shoulders (or fingers)?



honestly, i still see between 90 and 180 degrees of shoulder twist as a type of inversion since you've got planes facing opposite directions, but it's either lose that distinction or lose the giant weave, i guess and i can't quite argue that move purely as an inversion yet. smile



look real close at those vids with a mind to turning -- note how your "11 beat motions" only goes up to 3rd "degree" before tangling? doesn't that tell you it's only a 7 with turns? see how in the "imperfect" vid you spin 180 degrees in and 360 degrees out on both sides? you're possibly going in with 11 circles and coming out with 9, (tho it looks more like 9 and 7, which would match the motions vid). i dunno man. even though it's all semantics, i think i've still got solid proof on this one. and i'll still (jokingly) say if you can get 9 without fingers, your ligaments are cheating. :P


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Rev
Rev

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Posted:dut-

what I only turn my shoulders for the 11th beat...





where do you keep getting that I'm doing it at 9? I go to the 4th degree and then turn?!?


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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted: Written by: Dut


"THE 9 beat" can involve finger wrapping, but it's kinda sketchy to me why you can allow one finger to wrap legally but not all 5 individually. wink



I'm not going to get into the whole turning thing, but unless I'm understanding this wrong, wrapping 5 fingers individually wouldn't add any beats unless you switched the poi from finger to finger.
That's why I'd say that wrapping fingers makes an extra beat - it's not turning and it's not tangling, but it is an extra place for body parts to cross and twist around each other.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted: Written by: Rev



dut-

what I only turn my shoulders for the 11th beat...



where do you keep getting that I'm doing it at 9? I go to the 4th degree and then turn?!?





you going to freakfest? wink funny how talking about poi leads one around in circles. lol. it's impossible to tell at that speed how far down it's wrapping, but if you say it's not chain, awesome job. we'll have to agree to disagree on whether that much shoulder movement counts as turning i think, but i've got it sorted why i was thinking in terms of 90 degrees... you get 90 degrees on each side. after that i called it "pre-unwinding" and "winding into" a turn between moves. think why your answer for this thread should be the same in degrees as for TTN, and know you can't get 5 there for the same reason you can't get 5 without turning a weave. if you use that kind of unwinding, your "weave plane" faces away from itself in the same weave half! and your weave takes up a full circle instead of a single plane. that's not inversion to you? if you can do that at the end of a 3bt instead of a 7/9 do you not consider it a turn? confused the planes of a weave are 90 degrees apart, not 450. i don't know how else to explain it. do you at least get where i'm going with the shoulder cut-off?



((if this slow grinding through all the possibilities isn't giving anyone hints, i'm gonna quit now. ubbloco))


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Rev
Rev

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Posted:but I thought the point was that you were claiming that I wasnt getting the 4th?

I've already conceded that 5 is a matter of opinon and I wanst going to argue.. but 9 only invvles 4 and that's very doable..

I should be at freakfest.. but I can't say for sure.. we can resolve it then if I make it.... wink


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"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted: Written by: Rev


but I thought the point was that you were claiming that I wasnt getting the 4th?

I've already conceded that 5 is a matter of opinon and I wanst going to argue.. but 9 only invvles 4 and that's very doable..

I should be at freakfest.. but I can't say for sure.. we can resolve it then if I make it.... wink



well. i conceded that 9 was possible with fingers too. lol. i was purposefully neglecting wrapping below the wrist to work out what happens above the shoulders. which should definitely have the same definition whether you're 3/5/7/or 9 beating below them, and which i've only given my self more questions about and more patterns to practice by thinking on for so long. my definition of weave historically started with the shoulders and worked down toward the poi heads. if you want a weave to start at the feet, i'm gonna want to have a better definition of "inversion" to go along with it. lol. but that's the essence of my conflictedness, i hope. wink

-- dut


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ChrisGore
newbie
Location: CapeTown
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2006
Total posts: 8
Posted:wow...
you guys gave me alot to think about, and even more to practice. I never realised that there was so much controvercy around 'beats'. I guess that there will have to be an 'international poi spinning convention' where everyone can show what they are meaning and what they are actually capable of...it will probably last for five or six years at the least ubblol
I can see it depends on how many planes that you are moving to, and what methods, to gain the extra 'beats'.
Thanks for all the input

--Chris


To spin or not to spin,
that is a stupid question.

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