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Forums > Social Discussion > 'Sport' juggling & the WJF

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:This was triggered by a discussion on this thread-



most objects juggled



which got heated at one point.



I've put this in 'social' because it wouldn't be especially on-topic in the above thread, and because I think it may be of interest as a social discussion thread.



----------------------------



I downloaded the second of the two vids of the event from the WJF site, as I'd read on a juggling forum that it had some exceptional juggling on it.



vids here-



http://www.thewjf.com/
br>


My feelings on watching it were-



it wasn't really what I expected- though the juggling was technically extremely high, it also seemed to be very 'samey'- certainly, and though this is obviously a matter of personal judgement- I wouldn't myself consider it to be 'exceptional' compared to many other vids I've downloaded.



There was definitly an emphasis on pirouettes smile which I guess is understandable given that they're an easy aspect of juggling to give a score to.



Nevertheless, personally I've never done a pirouette, and feel no inclination to start, and I think this applies to many other jugglers smile



I also found the presence of large sponsership type posters in the background to be (and this is just my feelings on it) ...well, ugly. I'm no big fan of trad sports, and I'm especially not a fan of the commercial stuff that goes along with championship events; personally, i think it'll be a shame if juggling goes the same way.



presumably, this vid may express what is meant by 'sport juggling', and therefore be a taste of what is to come if those pushing for juggling getting into the olympics or classed as a 'sport'.



If so, then I'm fine with that; but, I wouldn't be fine if, as some seem to do, this kind of juggling is considered to be 'proper' juggling, abd promoted to the general public as such.



Because, what I saw on the vid did not bear that much resemblance to what I, or many other jugglers I know, do.



It was a small sub-set of juggling skills, and it was focused very much towards those individuals who are good at learning difficult technical skills, and who are, to some extent, althletically inclined.



From what I've seen of juggling over the years, it often provides a refuge, and a lifelong hobby, for precisely the individuals who are turned off, or feel exluded from, althleticism, sports and the attitudes that generally go with trad sports.



And it is these people who have built up the juggling scene to the level it is today.



On the whole, they've supported and encouraged that minority of jugglers who are into the high-level technical stuff, so I think it's important for those technical jugglers who push for 'sport' status, to maintain and promote a similar respect for the 'hobbyist' jugglers and those who specialise in style over technique.



On the issue of whether juggling in the olympics is a good or bad thing, an issue that I've never really formed an opinion on, as it would have both pros and cons for juggling- I've now come to a conclusion.



Personally (and this is just my opinion), I'd rather that juggling did not appear in the olympics, or be promoted as a sport.



Whilst I realise that sport status would lead to more cash injection, and more 'normal' ( smile)people getting into it; I just think that juggling is doing fine as it is, that it provides a good alternative to trad sports, and that to lose its essence by becoming another sport is too big a price to pay.



I really think that it is of more value to society precisisly because it is an alternative to trad sports.



(I'll just emphaise that i'm not critisising the WJF or those into this kind of sport juggling, rather I'm saying that it constitutes one style of juggling (amongst many other, equally valid styles.



There was good stuff on the vid, for example the short clip of garfield himself doing five rings in a box (very low roof) and pulling off a pirouette).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:"Nevertheless, personally I've never done a pirouette, and feel no inclination to start, and I think this applies to many other jugglers " - You are not a man until you don a pink tutu and pirouette. Well, thats what I was told... umm

hug M.C. Mr O.W.D smile


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:I think they were lying to you UCOF... :rolleyes: ubblol

I wouldn't want juggling to become mainstream either... although I don't juggle. I guess the point is that I'm happy in my little group of spinners and jugglers. I don't want everyone to start juggling/spinning from a competitive viewpoint. While I might like to imagine circus skills being taught in schools, I think that there would always be a hint of competition with people who started out that way.

I also feel a great sense of community with spinners/jugglers and I'm not sure that would last if it became an olympic sport.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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GeoffonTour04
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

enthusiast
Location: Oxford

Total posts: 360
Posted:I prefer to see juggling as a performance art, not really something that can be measured. There are certain things you can note on, but style and aesthetics are the most important thing at the end of the day. And there's no way to measure 'most entertaining' really.

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:I don't quite understand how you could put juggling and competitiveness together.

There is just beginners, getting better then good jugglers surely? Really good juggler and just those whove been doing it for ten years?


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
There are certain things you can note on, but style and aesthetics are the most important thing at the end of the day. And there's no way to measure 'most entertaining' really.



If you look at things like competitive rhythm gymnastics or figure skating thats exactly what happens.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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GeoffonTour04
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

enthusiast
Location: Oxford

Total posts: 360
Posted:I suppose you could have it judged based on neatness, technicality & artisticness, but juggling's more of a fun thing, figure skating & gymnastics are a bit serious.

Having said that if people enjoy taking something performance related to a competitive level who are we to say it's wrong tongue


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Mint Sauce
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

veteran
Location: Lancs England

Total posts: 1453
Posted:hear hear

before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Red_RaveN
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

Neo - Hippie
Location: Sala, Slovakia

Total posts: 358
Posted:Juggling as a sport could IMO very well develop into something similar like gymnastics. As there really isn't much competitiveness among jugglers it would probably attract a new sort of people. very competitive people. Who would probably misinterpret the basic ideas behind juggling and only focus on the competitions. Which would be bad.

Smile.. It confuses people..:)

Wonders never cease as long as you never cease to wonder.

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Competitivty can manifest itself in many ways,





Getting through auditions for a company like Cirque du Soleil is just as competitive as trials for a professional football club.



While sports like football and figure skating are competitive when played by dedicated pros, most people who want a kickabout or go ice skating just want to have a bit of fun. Like most spinners.

EDITED_BY: dream (1135598209)


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Juggling isn't a completely non-competitive activity- when someone pulled off a 7 ball cascade, others were inspired to go for 9.

And, even more so, there's a lot of competiting against yourself- putting in the work to be able to do more balls or smoother tricks, than you could last year.

But, like I said above, juggling is, for many, a haven and an alternative to conventional sports activities- the majority of jugglers, juggle for reasons other than competitiveness.

If a minority of jugglers wish to set up 'sport' juggling based on a small number of juggling techniques that can be judged by a panel, then that's fine by me.

It's just if, in doing so, they feel the need to disparage the non-sport based juggling, then I object to that.

There's also the matter of public perception- running and setting up a sport requires extensive marketing, and they will basically be presenting to the public an image of what juggling is. I'm not sure that those who are into sport based juggling are going to be presenting an objective view of what juggling is.

I think they need to make clear that what they are promoting is 'Sport Juggling', rather than creating the erroneous impression that this is what juggling is about.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:I think Cirque du Soleil and events like the olympics are by far the exception in the juggling world rather than the norm and it would be a shame if people came to think of it as a super complex sport or a form of high art.



I think the core charms of juggling are the facts that it is on the whole; socal, inclusive and uncompetitive.



I think trying to turn it into a sport is a bad idea.


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I don't mind. If geeky jugglers want to get sponsored and improve the visibility of the sport I don't mind. I like it when people can do what they love for a living, rather than a hobby.

It would increase the awareness of juggling and get more people interested, which probably means more work for professional performers, which I don't mind one bit.

Just so long as the sports jugglers don't start acting like superior arrogant idiots who diss performance orientated jugglers, like OWD stated.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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hexagonic


hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1687
Posted:I'm undecided on this subject. confused

Personally, I've always liked juggling because it's something I can do by myself, and I think a lot of jugglers probably feel the same. For me it was always something that I didn't have to be in a team to do.

I was always pretty much a loner (and very shy) when I was younger, and so ostracized to a certain extent by my school peers. This lead me towards doing things by myself and therefore practising things like juggling/unicycling, ie. things I could do by myself. No doubt quite a few people I'm friends with/other jugglers feel the same way as I do, loners when younger, bullied when younger, have feelings of fitting in with the juggling crowd, etc etc.

Where does this fit in with sports juggling? Well, i think the more people are introduced to it, the more people will become jugglers and the crowd might start to include team players and people who are more competitive.

Now, that might not be such a bad thing, but I feel that if juggling does become more competitve and be all about competitions, it might put off people like myself getting in with the juggling crowd.

In short, I'm quite happy with juggling being full of people who are quite quiet, shy, loners, don't fit with the team sports/corporate culture etc. Once it's more competitive it'll be difficult for it to backtrack into days like these.


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:Written by: Hexagonic

In short, I'm quite happy with juggling being full of people who are quite quiet, shy, loners, don't fit with the team sports/corporate culture etc. Once it's more competitive it'll be difficult for it to backtrack into days like these.



I think those type of jugglers will be seen as having "failed" somehow by not being of "competitive" standard.

Of course they will probably not care what other people think of them. Or perhaps they do care which is why they are loners in the first place? hmmm.... perhaps those who truely don't care are those most ingrained with society?

....


whatever... ubbloco


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
I think those type of jugglers will be seen as having "failed" somehow by not being of "competitive" standard.



only in the exact same way that people who play a game of football with a few mates in the park instead of having a spin are seen as failed premier league players.

Or someone who plays a game of chess with a friend is a failed grandmaster.

Drunken kareoke becomes a barrage of failed pop stars

And everyone who went to school but didnt end up getting a PhD is a failed academic.

I honestly cant think I've ever met anyone with that kind of outlook.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:I think anyone who took Chess really seriously, anyone who trained really hard and was really obsessed with singing, anyone who studies their subject endlessly and who doesn't become a grandmaster, pop star or academic is perceived as having failed. These are seen as the summit of achievement within these skills.

In juggling at the moment there isn't really such a summit of achievement. You can become a professional performer but that is generally considered a different type of skill. You just become a good juggler.

That could change with the introduction of sports juggling. "Society" does not understand juggling, generally. It only knows what it is told. If it is told that being an olympic juggler is to be the best then that is what people shall expect good jugglers to be like. If being an olympic juggler is to be competitive in a certain style...

This is the thought that occured to me.

Of course the people who matter won't think like this...


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Your comments about obsession and taking things seriously are ambiguous... If you mean people taking up anything as a profession then to a certain extent i agree with you.

In any profession under the capitalist system there is a degree of judgement in terms of success/failure in an economic sense. Not matter how hard you try at a profession if you cannot succeed in providing a sufficient income to house and feed yourself and any dependents you have then you will have been judged to have failed. And this is just as true for performers as anyone else.

On the other hand when you're discussing people who juggle/play sports for a hobby, then it tends to be a creative, social, fun experience. These people aren't judged as somehow having failed in life because they don't play to a world class standard. But to even think about them in that respect fails to comprehend that we're talking about - people's hobbies - part-time things they do for fun. Much the same as why most people spin/juggle.

As for non-competitive performers being dismissed by society as faliures, would a gymnast or acrobat who is touring with Cirque du Soleil be deemed a failure because they aren't at the olympics (which is requires a higher level of technical skill)? Of course not.

But do events like the Olympics, watched by a couple of billion people boost public awareness of arts such as figure skating? And has this increased exposure led to both higher audiences at performance based ice-shows and young people taking up ice skating as a hobby. The answer is yes.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:we are both talking in ambiguities expressing our very subjective opinions. There is no right or wrong answers here, just opinions smile

The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Written by: Zauberdachs

we are both talking in ambiguities expressing our very subjective opinions. There is no right or wrong answers here, just opinions smile



what kind of pussy hippy talk is that? Get with the argueing! wink


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:I can't be bothered.

It's not like we are talking about anything that can be meaningfully argued, like is x staff totally rubbish or is x move possible.

I'm bored of people just "blah, blah, blah listen to my opinion blah ignore that the person has already said what you've just said a few posts previously blah blah."


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I think somebody needs to become a geeky spinner that only cares about new moves and visits hop for that reason solely. Then when there isn't any, goes and posts total verbal crap whereever the mood takes her. Like me! ubbangel wink hug

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:smile

I can always count on you wink


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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Tom_Shill
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

Tom_Shill

enthusiast
Location: Brighton

Total posts: 213
Posted:I think the main problem would be the exclusivity of competitive sports. They are never supportive of people without natural talent. Take my personal self-indulgent sob-story for instance. I've always enjoyed a kickabout but I have very limited natural ability at football and was left out a lot. So I joined a kids' training group and I was left out there. All deeply scaring stuff I'm sure you'll aggree. Anyway this summer a friend challenged me to learn to juggle in light of my lack of hand-eye coordination. So, after a couple of weeks I managed to nail a really sloppy 3 ball cascade. When I came to Uni I cautiously went along to the circus skills society with my super-basic ability and was immediately accepted, encouraged and helped to develop tricks etc. It was the same with spinning. I'd never spun before but I started at the first meeting and couldn't do anything but the atmosphere was so positive that I made some sock poi and learned to weave for the following week. Again I was encouraged and helped along. And I think that's the difference between the two cultures. Sports types have an attitude of "if that's all you can do you're not doing it near me" and jugglers/spiners are more like "hey it's great that you want to learn/know the basics, have you tried this? maybe that'd be easier if you did it this way". It's a lot more accepting and encouraging, and it'd be a shame to have that corrupted by commercial sports types.
EDITED_BY: Tom_Shill (1136323612)


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:some good points made well here already smile

i totally agree that 'sport juggling' is one very small aspect of juggling and is defined solely by the wjf at the moment.

i'm not against juggling becoming a competitive sport at all but i don't fully agree with the way it is being handled by the wjf.

my two main gripe points are that the sponsorship is not being kept in-industry and that the rules and scoring system are reminiscent of the horribly complex gymnastics and figure skating scoring systems (that only serve to further alienate laypeople that might tune in to watch) and there are.

i'd personally like to see juggling approach its competitive side like skating, bmx and snowboarding have.

the approaches of competitions like the arctic challenge and to a lesser extent the x games and gravity games show that artistic hobbies can be turned into friendly competitor/exhibition sports without losing the ethos already instilled in those involved.


as an aside, there is an interesting discussion on the juggling newsgroup about 'sport juggling' (started off as a discussion of scoring but widened up quite a bit): linkee


cole. x
juggle


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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