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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I was having a talk with my senior resident.

Ok here's the setting: We work at a city hospital that serves Medicaid patients. These are poor, underserved patients who can't afford their own medical insurance and so have government insurance.

The thing is that most of these patients live on welfare, too. And when I say "on welfare," I mean that mom doesn't work because she has three kids and three kids pay enough welfare for mom to be able to support the family without working.

Here's the general life cycle in the Bronx.
1) 15-year-old girl gets pregnant, has baby.
2) 15-year-old girl, of course, cannot support baby and collects welfare.
3) Now 16-year-old girl drops out of school (or perhaps graduates high school) and in the process, manages to repeat the mistake and have another baby.
4) Now 19-year-old girl is working a minimum-wage job while grandma (aged 35 or so) is raising the two kids...and...manages to get pregnant AGAIN...
5) Now, with three kids, the welfare check is sufficient that she can maintain her three kids in a 2-bedroom apartment, and she stops working so she can raise her kids, because Grandma is at wit's end.
6) Now 25-26-year-old woman either fails to talk to her daughter about the birds and the bees or simply forbids her daughter to have sex. Which eventually results in...
7) 15-year-old girl gets pregnant, has a baby.

So here is my resident's plan. Quite simply, you are limited to three kids that you cannot support. Once you have that third kid, if you apply for government assistance, you are forced to undergo a tubal ligation/vasectomy. Both of these are reversible procedures so that if you do manage to pull your life back together, you can have (at government cost) the procedure reversed. Her reasoning is simple: "If you can't make a responsible choice and continue to spend my tax dollars on raising your kids, then I have to make the choice for you."

As horrible as it sounds, I honestly believe that these children are poorly raised by immature parents who were poorly raised themselves. As long as this cycle is allowed to continue unchecked, it will continue unchecked.

Here are my additions:
1) Sex ed is MANDATORY for all kids at age 10. Seem young? Most of my patients had coitarche (coit-ark-ee, meaning the onset of sexual activity) at age 12-13. No religious opt-outs, no exceptions, nothing. EVERYONE gets sex ed. Reading, writing, 'rithmetic, and reproductive planning. And condoms are provided FREE in schools. Birth control may be prescribed without parental consent and is available FREE to teenagers.

2) If you get pregnant and you are under 18, you have two choices: you may a) abort or b) give the baby up for ANONYMOUS adoption. Children may not raise children. If it's 11:58 PM on the evening of your 18th birthday and you have a kid...tough. Adoption. If you want a kid that badly, you can have another later.

Yes, it sounds harsh, but you have to look at it from the point of view of someone who has to take care of these children. I find them to be almost uniformly medically neglected. I have *NEVER* seen a parent actually fill a prescription for antibiotics that I have given, in spite of careful instruction and pep-talks into the importance of these. Parents expect us to GIVE them (because we do) over-the-counter drugs such as ibuprofen and acetaminophen (paracetamol, as they call it in the UK). They also expect the hospital to GIVE them passes on public transportation. And they call the EMS for their kid's coughs and colds because they know that EMS has to accept all pediatric patients, regardless of whether the complaint warrants EMS transport. And they have to pay ZERO copay for ED visits. I have seen so many children come in having asthma attacks and needing high-dose steroids (with cumulative toxicity) because their parents couldn't be arsed to fill and administer their preventative meds. I have seen obesity because more than 90% of a kid's diet is fast food because the parents can't be arsed to cook.

I beleive in government health care and I believe in the need for a social safety net, but there has to be some personal accountability in the system. The system as it is (at least in New York City) seems to reward people for abusing it. It's time that some pop-off valves were installed.

After all, I'm a working physician. I pay for my health insurance. If I go to the ED, I have a $50 copay and office visits have a $20 copay. Prescriptions have a copay from $10 to $30. I don't get over-the-counter drugs covered. And my insurance would LAUGH at me if I asked them for a MTA Metrocard. Why do unemployed people get better health insurance than I do?

At least I know where that third of my paycheck is going.

-Doc "The Conservatives aren't wrong about *everything*" Lightning


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Like i said, its not a lack of practicality or medical safety. Its just most doctors refuse. I've been told its to do with malpractice insurance, but I'm not actually sure why....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I don't know. I'll bother an OB/GYN about it.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:one of my friends from school had a mother who didnt believe in vaccinations, and my friend was really angry with her mother about it and said as soon as she turns 18, she was going to go and get as many vaccinations as she could make up for at that age.
i dont know if she ever did, but she was pretty determined at the time.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: becci

I really don't think any parent would want their child intentionally to catch measles, mumps or german measles as they are all very very nasty.


Believe it or not but I actually met a woman who intentionally exposed her children to measels in order to avoid the MMR injection since she thought that it would be 'safer'. I think my jaw just about hit the ground when she told me about it. I tried to tell her (with the upmost politeness) about the dangers of measels and the saftey of the MMR jab but she simply wouldn't listen. It was terrifying how her sense of danger was completed askew and how she just would not listen, even at the risk of her childrens health. It remains one of the very few times that anyone has sent shivers down my spine.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:I've had measles, mumps and rubella (german measles if I'm not mistaken) and had absolutely no problems....except when I was given penecillin for the measles (amoxycillin to be precise) I ended up in hospital and nearly died (due to severe allergy to amoyxyl)
I agree the MMR is a good thing. why risk exposing a child to a harmful disease that could have dangerous effects if there is no need? it does seem odd... but I'm starting to understand why parents who have heard scaremongering don't have the vaccine... no vaccine no chance of scaremongerers visions coming true vs no certainty the child will contract disease if other children are vaccinated.....warped logic but hey, parents fear constantly for their kids safety.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Nephtys


Nephtys

resident fridge magnet
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Total posts: 835
Posted:I'm not going to get into the welfare debate - though I do agree there should be changes to avoid the whole 3-baby-wellfare thing - but I have HUGE issues with the abortion/adoption before 18 suggestion. I think it's utterly unethical, and it is indeed reminiscent of laws in nazi germany and certain communist countries. Being forced to give up a baby (unmarried mothers here used to be severely pressurised to do so by society here as late as the 1950s and 60s) can be just as traumatic as an abortion, and a lot of the adopted children (now adults) I know have huge issues with not knowing who their biological parents are, however wonderful their adoptive parents are. It's not a simple 'no-one gets hurt' solution.

Here in Holland you can drink at 16, and vote and drive at 18. Though it varies from state to state, in a lot of places in the US you can drive at 16, vote at 18 and drink at 21. In some african societies you are not considered an adult until you are 30, but it is completely normal for girls to be married start having babies as young as 13. What i'm trying to say is, these age barriers are pretty arbitrary, and you will not when you turn 18 suddenly magically become a better parent than you were two minutes earlier.

Yep, some teen parents are utterly inept and that's a very sad thing for both parents and babies - but some teens do a wonderful job raising their children, and some 35-yr olds are absolutely horrible parents, are you going to start taking away their babies as well? Or maybe we could start removing obese kids from their families because their parents are not being responsible about their diet? Maybe we could make all pregnant women (and fathers, if they're around) take mandatory parenting-tests, and if they're not up to scratch, sorry, can't keep that baby! Should have learnt to be a better parent before you got pregnant!

All you can do is educate, educate, educate & provide contraception - sex ed (beyond just the mechanics - it should include talk on relationships, emotions, connection, other sexual acts aside from full intercourse, enjoyment of sex, etc.) but also bring home how hard it is to raise a child at any age, let alone when you're very young. There are some other good suggestions here on changing the entire mentality and approach towards sexuality and sexual responsibility. Here in the Netherlands there's been a slight increase in the STD infection rate after years of decrease, so there's now a huge public campaign (tv, radio & billboards) aimed at teens. All the ads/posters are about kids who have just found out they've got an STI, from recognisable situations (1st girlfriend/boyfriend, holiday fling etc.) the slogan of which is "who's stupid enough to f*ck without a condom anyway!?" - it's simple, pragmatic, non-moralising, offers a solution/method of prevention, lays responsibility with the kids in question, and it speaks teen language. I'd say it's a lot more effective than having this huge taboo surrounding sexuality, abstinence "sex is bad" campaigns, and making a huge deal about sex ed and teaching it separately to boys and girls. There's plenty of research showing that giving sex ed and access to contraception at a young age will not start kids having sex younger, but it will ensure they are better informed and protected when they do start.

From what Mike says, the problem seems to mainly be with the very poor, so maybe ensuring access to GOOD higher education for all who are willing to work for it (rather than just the rich and the very gifted (through scholarships)) would also help - offer a way out of the cycle of poverty so there's some kind of incentive to be more responsible about your life in general.


done ranting now smile


everyone's unique except me

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Nephtys

Yep, some teen parents are utterly inept and that's a very sad thing for both parents and babies - but some teens do a wonderful job raising their children, and some 35-yr olds are absolutely horrible parents, are you going to start taking away their babies as well?



But that's exactly what we do. Of course, it generally happens after the kid's been abused or neglected.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:Any word yet on why a teen can't have an IUD, Mike? I'm actually interested in the answer.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

Believe it or not but I actually met a woman who intentionally exposed her children to measels in order to avoid the MMR injection since she thought that it would be 'safer'.



offtopic
There was actually a south park episode about this. The kids took revenge by giving their parents cold sores/herpes.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Zauberdach


Zauberdach

Sometimes sword wofter
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 199
Posted:Written by: becci

As for taking things to the extreme... why not sterilise everyone at birth then when they want to have a child they have to sit the parenting exams and provide evidence of enough savings to support the child whatever happens...when they can do this the people who make all the rules unsterilise them...et voila.




Good. Like driving a car. From birth we have the capability to drive a car but we do not optain the right to do so until we've proven that we can handle it. Having a child is SO much more important than owning a car.

The critera for parenthood could include things like: a years mandatory drugs testing, a year looking after a pet, a years education in basic human biology including classes in basic child care.

Fathers would have jump through these hoops too.


IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.

"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:yeah, except the problwem with that is the'r standards are not everyones. (well, that's just one problem.....i can't think of everything).

for example....i would allow my kids to experiment with drugs....i'm not saying i'd take them if i was pregnant - cos i wouldn#t, but mandatory drug testing? no way.

and how would religion come in to all this? there are people who already want to control other people's bodies by stopping them having abortions...what about catholics who think birth control is a sin? hmmmmm, i think it's a very VERY bad idea.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Nephtys


Nephtys

resident fridge magnet
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Total posts: 835
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Written by: Nephtys

Yep, some teen parents are utterly inept and that's a very sad thing for both parents and babies - but some teens do a wonderful job raising their children, and some 35-yr olds are absolutely horrible parents, are you going to start taking away their babies as well?



But that's exactly what we do. Of course, it generally happens after the kid's been abused or neglected.



exactly... AFTER the kid's been abused or neglected - not taken away at birth on the assumption that someone is going to be a bad parent.


everyone's unique except me

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:well neither is right is it?

you can't assume someone is a bad parent before they've had the chance and you also can't wait until a child has been damaged.

al you can do is have checks in place to make sure you catch the bad parents before they do something stupid without stopping the good parents from going about their lives.

it's a hard job, very difficult to get the balance, but i belive that's why they have people trained to do it.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I dunno. I see parenting as being a fair sight more responsibility than driving, and regardless of whether you're mature enough to be doing that at 14, driving age is 16 in this country. Same with voting at 18.

My view is that children should not be raising children. The vast majority don't have the emotional maturity or resources to be doing so and if we aren't going to let them drive or vote, we shouldn't let them have the ultimate responsibility of being 100% responsible for another life.

I say give it all at 18. Drinking, voting, draft, etc. Driving in the US has to come earlier because in 99% of the country not having a license is tantamount to not having legs. But I maintain my belief that children should not be permitted to raise children.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:How about having it all after you pass a high school diploma, and if the religious nuts don't want the sex ed part of the diploma taught to their kids, then they have to provide all the services that the rest of society won't (ie. bugger off and live on a reservation).

Of course the richest fraction of a percent of the population that runs the show just loves stupid people, they use up so much stuff they don't need and make that fraction of a percent even richer, so there's no hope of reducing the number of stupid people in society.

"Kare ra saru desu" as a Japanese friend used to say.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:don't know why i'm posting this cause it won't prove anything, but i just completely disagree.



i can understand and agree with every point you're making, you re completely right, but i still totally disagree.



having a child is one of the most natural, basic things a human can do. i don't see how removing peoples biological ability to have children is ever justifiable - it's a god given right if you believe in that...and i just don't think any more messing with people's bodies is morally right - there's too much already but that just my opinion.



in other cultures where girls have babies young they work out fine, and that is often because there are social structures that are set up to cope with that sitaution. in that light, maybe the problem is not the young mothers, but society itself.



i think what is needed here is all the changes that well know need to happen with regards to eduaction etc, but i don't think you can ever justify an interim measure of streilising people at birth.



i know i haven't really backed this up properly, but it's just a feeling i have. i don't want kids, and at the moment i thnk it's likely that i will never want to have children (although i know it could change!), but i can't think of anything that would make mee feel so utterly violated as to have that ability taken from me 'in case' i'm not a good parent, or beacuse i'm caught up in circumstances beyond my control.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Tao, the name of the thread is misleading, though.

Sterilization would always be voluntary, but it would be mandatory for continued government support.

Basically, people can choose not to be sterilized by choosing to live responsibly.

Moving one's bowels is also a natural, basic thing. But we don't just let people do that whenever and wherever they like. The same should be true of any other "totally natural" function, such as having children. Indiscriminately having children you can't support is morally reprehensible and I think it's time something was done about it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:but in effect that is mandatory isn't it? if you're so poor you can't suuport yourself then what choice do you have?



sometimes having babies isn't about not being responsible. while i was in school i heard girls talking about the most ridiculous things like, you can't get pregnant first time or something.



this was coming from a relatively well off school, but they just didn't know]. i don't think that irresponsibility and lack of knowledge are the same thing at all.



there are also a lot of well off people who are awful and irresponsible parents. they wouldn't come under your system because they wouldn't need government support to keep having unwanted babies.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

but in effect that is mandatory isn't it? if you're so poor you can't suuport yourself then what choice do you have?



You have a choice to not have promiscuous unprotected sex.

Remember, as part of this program, mandatory sex ed works into it, as does free access to contraception.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:rubber up y'all.........you never know when it will rain;)

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:im appalled by some of what has been said here

i am a mother of 3
with my first 2 sons there father left me for someone else...
i worked my arse off every night dancing in a night club to support my boys while my sister and mum babysat and the kids were in bed and then i looked after my kids all day, i was 17 and 18 with my 1st 2 kids.

the thing im appalled at is fact being sterilized, forced to have an abortion or forced to give a child up for adoption can cause mental unstable problems for someone and im not on about the unaware kids im on about the ppl who have been made to do this...
life isnt about how much money you have, it isnt about all the luxeries in the world being a good parent is about love and warmth and good food.
i had my 3rd son after my abusive partner and his friend took advantage i will say no more, police did bugger all to help and i lived in denial... i was depressed and so my father looked after my elder 2 boys also fact i had to go into a refuge to escape my ex partner after i had my youngest son i didnt want them living in 1 small room with me... 2 years on i have my own flat, i have a job, a partner and my own company is just being set up which is a promotions company to raise money for the nspcc special investigations unit.. they deal with abused childrens cases

my eldest 2 boys chose to stay with my father and step mum and there daughters, they are at school and happy, i support them living there, it isnt cos i cant care for them it is cos i decided they were safer there whilst i delt with my ex partner and the place i was living, there father has since had a daughter jus 9 months younger than my middle son and twin daughters with his wife, he does not see any of his 3 other kids, he does not and has never supported them or bought them even a birthday card, me and amber his first daughters mum are best friends now and we make sure the kids have regular contact, i have regular contact with my 2 eldest boys.

taking children away from biological parents causes much undue stress for a lot of ppl, i agree with education needing to be more efficiant and condoms being more readily available but what happened to supporting young ppl who yes get themselves in these messes but with support and love they can get through it,
i get 70% of my child care paid for so i can work as that isnt cheap, i get some help through tax credits but if more parents are aware of this or that they can get free childcrae if they go to college as i am also doing then maybe more of them wouldnt be on benefits as beleive me benefits are almost impossible to live off, i dont get net and a fone line and a nice house a food on my table and chance to go out and meet ppl by living on benefits and i have no family living anywhere near me to help me with my youngest boy

it is wrong to say because u have seen these parents have kids jus to get benefits that all of us do it cos we dont
i thought my eldest 2 boys dad was gona stick around till i caught him in bed with amber and i never thought what my previous ex did was ever gona happen to me but it did and life goes on and u learn from mistakes with a little support and not being forced into doing stuff that could casue long term damage physically and mentally

and for the note its a touchy subject for me cos me and my bf so want another baby so bad yes my 4th but im not able to have that pleasure again.


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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Written by: Tao Star

but in effect that is mandatory isn't it? if you're so poor you can't suuport yourself then what choice do you have?



You have a choice to not have promiscuous unprotected sex.

Remember, as part of this program, mandatory sex ed works into it, as does free access to contraception.



in which case.....well, i agree a bit more.....but i dunno, i just feel really uncomfortable with the idea of sterilisation even if it's voluntary......i think that kind of thing could cause a lot of trauma at the time. i think even if i knew it was helping me.....you could cause some realy problems in terms of body image, lack of autonomy, ijust know i would feel really violated, even if it was a choice i made myself.

think how a lot of girls feel about having an abortion - i know it's not quite the same, but it's traumatic, and i don't think that messing with peoples bodies that lightly is a good idea, even if it's reversable. how likely are there to be problems with that kind of procedure?

are you thinking this would be more of a deterrent that isn't used that often, or would you see it happening to a lot of women?

and again...what about catholics say? would you just suggest they abstain?


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

and again...what about catholics say? would you just suggest they abstain?



Well, as long as I'm Supreme-Dictator-and-Grand-Poobah-for-Life, which is what would have to happen in order to institute such a program (incidentally...say good bye to Spam E-mail if that happens...spamming is punishable by permanent removal of all bodily hair...including eyebrows), some religions are going to just have to deal.

We don't let Jehova's witnesses refuse to transfuse their kids. There are certain things that simply aren't defensible, religious or not. And overrunning the system with kids born to irresponsibility is one of them.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:ok, well that answers that question oh Supreme-Dictator-and-Grand-Poobah-for-Life. ubblol

i think i see where we disagree, which is that, although i think religions have got it wrong, basically (sorry everyone!) i still think that they have a right to refuse any treatment as long as they are considered an adult wherever they live. so yeah, you should be able to give transfusions to children of Jehova's witnesses, but i would say that adult catholics should be able to have a say in weather they use contraception or not.

i disagree with them, and i think it's a really bad idea, but also, seeing as catholics don't believe in sex before mariage anyway they're probably a lot more responsible about having kids than a lot of people.

another question (sorry! i'm just interested to know how it would work!) what about accidents - condoms breaking....forgetting pills, that kind of thing....not all births are deliberate, what about rape? would you treat those cases the same (i.e. adoption or abortion)?


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Isn't that what the "Morning After" pill was designed for?

Dani_Babyboo: Just out of curiosity, why do you want another child if you have problems supporting the three you have already? What made you choose to have 2 kids at the age of 17+18?

(Note that this is not an accusatory tone of voice, I'm just kinda curious)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:true, but it doesn't always work out that way....my flatmate last year got pregnant and ended up having an abortion. she was a very down to earth girl, and not stupid at all, and yet she still got caught out. sometimes it just goes that way, and by that time it's too late. frown

also, when accidental pregnancy happens do you want 'i might lose my benefits' on top of the huge decision of do i keep it or not? it's a traumatic enough decision, and i really don't think that making it on the basis of money is a good ides. maybe a sensible one, but what about all the other things that go with becoming pregnant, like maternal instinct. some people belive that abortion is wrong on moral gounds...should they be forced to give a wanted child up for adoption? there's enough unwante children in the world without giving away one that the mother wanted to keep!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:i never siad i couldnt support my children cos i do support them...

2 of them live with my dad because of what i went through and we made the decision that they were safer there becasue of my ex but i support them, i buy them what they need when they need it and they get a regular income from me and my youngest son never wants for anything either....

i work, have a loving partner who im moving to be with and i have a business of my own which at the minute is not making money but when it takes off it will make a lot of money...

and me and my partner want another but i can not have anymore so pointless anyway.

and i got pregnant 1st time aged 16 because the condom split and it was new years eve we was both drunk, we had the 2nd cos he decided he wanted 2 close together altho he never stuck around, i was young and gullable and went along with it, yes in 1 way i wish i had waitied but i will never say i regret my boys cos i dont.


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

another question (sorry! i'm just interested to know how it would work!) what about accidents - condoms breaking....forgetting pills, that kind of thing....not all births are deliberate, what about rape? would you treat those cases the same (i.e. adoption or abortion)?



I still maintain that under no circumstances should children raise children. I wouldn't count rape toward the mandatory sterilization quota, though.

And as for adult catholics, they may have a say as to whether they are using contraception or not. But they may not recieve government assistance with raising their kids if they have more than three.

Folks, three "ooops"es is a lot of chances to learn your lesson.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Written by: Tao Star

another question (sorry! i'm just interested to know how it would work!) what about accidents - condoms breaking....forgetting pills, that kind of thing....not all births are deliberate, what about rape? would you treat those cases the same (i.e. adoption or abortion)?



I still maintain that under no circumstances should children raise children. I wouldn't count rape toward the mandatory sterilization quota, though.

And as for adult catholics, they may have a say as to whether they are using contraception or not. But they may not recieve government assistance with raising their kids if they have more than three.

Folks, three "ooops"es is a lot of chances to learn your lesson.

As for accidents, yes, they happen, they're unfortunate, and they're a risk of having sex. If I contract HIV because of a broken condom, the virus shows no mercy because it was an "accident." I choose not to have anal sex outside of a committed relationship.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:its not just anal sex you can get hiv from ???
theres many a way and accidents do happen
best way is be protected or make sure both partners get checked
i have checks every year accept recent because ive had the one partner and he has had only me.


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

Delete

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