• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Atomcraft: Basic atom theory and positions

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 123
[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:hello everyone!



I wrote this as a birthday present to everyone on the board, so I hope you like it.



sorry its a bit lateinnished but had some trouble uploading the images...



anyway, let the extreame geekery comence!



****************************************************************



basic atom craft



this essay is an attempt to describe clearly the basic movement principles when attempting to spin a stable atomic structure.



:P



i do not wish to get too bogged down in terminology, and therefore have invented my own for the most part. The main reason for this is that atoms are a paradime shift and are nearly impossible to explain in terms of weave ect without serious misunderstanding. instead i will describe the principles with a few invented terms and we can worry about what to call them later.



this is just an overview of the physical possibilities and postures, it is in no way describing any one trick or combination.



I am just a map.



ubbloco



Section I- Very Basic theory



how do we break up the atom into understandable chunks? lets start with the intersection. this is where the two planes of the atom cut each other. this intersection can be horizontal or vertical, or anything in-between but the position relative to the body changes its behaviour.





now, lets split again. what about movement in relation to the intersection?



you can move around the intersection, following the atoms rotational symmetry



or you can move over or across the intersection. these two principles are illustrated in the link below.



the basics





The difference between the horizontal and vertical atom is that the horizontal atom is easily moved over the intersection but not around the intersection. the reverse is true for the vertical atom.









The Atom Diagram



here



This is my atom model, it its useful for describing and thinking about atomic states. note that in these models the body rotates around the atom, but of course this translates directly into moving the atom around the body.



How the planes interact.



any atom can be in one of two states



Mesh



the poi travel in the same direction at the intersection.



Clash



the poi travel in the opposite direction at the intersection.



plane interactions



notice in the diagram of clash one hand is holding the tail of the arrow, behind the intersection, and the other hand is holding the head, next to the arrow.



these two interactions have been called butterfly and weave. but these terms are obsolete, as will bee seen in the next section.



a final set of variables for the model



there are three main variations for the hand positions.



hand positions



thease are basic in the extreame, but they are in fact the minium hand positions you must use to use atom. and its easier to model this way.



so now we can model the atom, we have its intersection, our movement relative to that, the planes interaction to each other and the position of our hands. so! how does it work?







Section II - Basic Application







Movement Around the Intersection (Vertical Atoms)



the vertical atom has two directions this depends on weather you are above or below the intersection, because (i think) you cant change that with vertical atoms.



vertical atoms



as you move around an atom the state changes from mesh to clash with every plane transition, every sector.



As you can see the differences in the directions are that in one the clash crosses and the mesh is open and the reverse is true for the other. atoms do like to balance.



you can transition two planes to stay in the same state, or you can transition 1 plane/hand and change the state. note also how all positions can be brought inside no matter the outside hand positions.





Movement over the Intersection (Horizontal Atoms)





like vertical atoms, horizontal has two directions, and two states, clash and mesh



below is a diagram showing the positions for each direction in the mesh state.



horisontal



note the difference, the vertical atoms go mesh open to mesh open, but horizontal ones go mesh open- inside- mesh crossed. these can all be turned, and an over the head open mesh atom forwards becomes a crossed mesh atom backwards, in other words twist your arms as you turn your body, then bring the atom inside again.







Section III- Conclusions confusions and carry outs



we can see now that atoms only have two directions, around and across the intersection, and these directions encompass both of the states of clash and mesh. I think is may be possible to traverse the intersection in a vertical atom, and likewise for the horizontal. but i haven't managed to model it yet.



Also not so far included in this model is the concept of time, the pois orbits in relation to each other, suffice to say that in mesh the poi may follow any time freely and clash the poi must be same time to pass each other (arashi calls this crane) or otherwise be woven by twisting and untwisting the wrists with the changes of direction. these are not massively theoretically complex but very hard to visualise in the imagination.



changes in direction are odd, although the atom is split into 4 parts, to change direction means to jump two parts at once, and to move one quadrant is to change the state of the atom and not its direction.



hyperloops are still in development within the model, but I am fairly certain that they act by swapping both planes through 90 degrees and thereby crossing the intersection, but maybe not. that's to go home with.



I hope you find this model helpful, by no means have i mapped everything about atoms, for instance half-in half-out positions are possible and unexplored here. It is an attempt to clarify and describe a very muddy and ill defined area. I am only a Map



happy birthday.



T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete Topic

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:Oooh! first response. lucky me.
how about
"Fabulous"
biggrin
weavesmiley


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

Azrelle_


Azrelle_

member
Location: Glasgow-ish

Total posts: 39
Posted:my head's sore...

Live life the fun way

Delete

spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Good thread - I've explored a lot of these positions, but you've introduced some good terminology and thought much more about the transitions than I bothered to wink

"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

Tir_na_nOg


journeyman
Location: Geographic Location

Total posts: 55
Posted:I have been wrecking my head for so so long without having anybody around to show me how to do atoms properly!!
(The diagrams are real insightful!)

Thou art a saviour to my sanity!!!!
Kudos to you Milhouse


Delete

TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Sweet dude! I was doing atoms with the left poi on an overhead plane and the right on the vertical, swinging backwards, split timed.
But now I can... experiment biggrin weavesmiley


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:tom, this post is quite lovely.

and this diagram is possibly my favourite poi diagram ever - it says everything i couldn't be bothered to work out for myself in a handy little pocket reference card sized space.

i still reckon there are only four dimensions in this universe though wink

hug2


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:dude, this is soooooooooo just what i needed. i'm printing this one out. thank you thank you thank you!!!

hug beerchug


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

Delete

PCPaul
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

newbie
Location: Portland, OR

Total posts: 4
Posted:MOST excellent! ubbidea We outta make this one a sticky.

New (useful) guides have gotten hard for me to find, what with the "moveless" and confusing nature of advanced poi spinnage, but this one is great.

I'm still developing my waistwrap variations, but now on to atoms! Geez and all this time I had been spinning one poi in the side planes and the other corkscrew, turning 'em around, switching them up, hoping that I was getting close to truly atomizing... eek

So hug thank you thank you HARD yo - this thread's extremely wicked. And those kinds of diagrams are always helpful - keep 'em coming everybody! Woo-haa! ubbloco


Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,

Thanks cole hug i knew youd like it beerchug

The thing about this is its just a system to make atoms more easy to think about. Ive not bothered to model everything I can think of, and the interactions between clash and mesh in turning horisontal atoms is an intresting avenue to build models with.

Im also trying to adress the clash mooition problem, and have added another dimension to the model, time.

time is intresting becuase it can be broken down, from its empty form, into two peices, split-time and same-time. wich of course are impossible to actually perform but make modeling so much easier.

the ex(t)ended model

in this model, the point at the ends represents where the poi head is at the particular time the model is cast. the two diffrent 'times' are easily pictured. also where the point is tells us how the poi are moving from one model to the next, becuase if they apear at the heads theyare going to move away from us, and at the tail they are coming toward us.

twotimes

with thease tools I am beggining to model the weave forms, tho its a little more difficult than this stuff, and I recon even inversions could get modled... ubbloco

having a booring day at work?

do some meaningfull doodles :P

T wave

p.s. thanks you all for the words of encouragement, I was dead nervose about this being usefull, ta!


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:clap

ubblove

hug2


thanx and happy birthday smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:biggrin stone biggrin

oh and thanks to arashi, who clicked in a lot of this stuff, but also inspired me with his vaugeness... wink

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)

Total posts: 625
Posted:Good job bro! There is some nice techy stuff in there and looks easy to understand!!! Still take me awhile to get most of it tho. Written by:
I am a slow learner

wink smile



Oi I agree with cole.... except about the dimension thing wink ubblol

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1128556851)


Delete

MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:So now... How does all this relate to the atomic weave? Am I doing it wrong or something? In all your examples the poi are in front of you and youre facing the corner of the intersection. When I do the atomic weave, one poi is doing circles in front and back of me while the other does circles on my sides like this .

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

Delete

ficklampa
BRONZE Member since Dec 2004

ficklampa

member
Location: sweden,stockholm.

Total posts: 81
Posted:does anyone hace instructive films on atoms?
cause...call me stupid but i dont really get it:P


the only thing worth dying for is life itself

Delete

LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:clap good effort!

Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

Delete

Delysid


newbie
Location: Lier

Total posts: 3
Posted:yeess! atoms sounds interesting, looks like
things i already started to do on my own,
only fact is, i usually swing like that trying to keep it up as long as possible, without really knowing where the poi 'll end up

one of the nicest ways i ever made atoms
was with two glowstick attached to one string
in one hand, waving them in totally different trajectories
I was somewhat intoxicated tho, and it only works
half if not less good when i'm sober,
they keep crashing into my arms then frown
but back to topic hass anyone got useful video's about this?

grtz


Delete

alphalight
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

alphalight

member
Location: south germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:ok this looks like a new dimension of poi a wave of inspiration after the slovenien enlighting ejc05 sunny

im also working on it but i cant put it in words footinmouth

so thanks u all for that and all the captain of pois to give us such a universe of how to move


peace and light

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo icon, thats right, thats atomic weave,

my model is a lot simpler than that drawing because it only shows one state at a time.

if you were to bring your green and red lines together you would get two intersections, with the body between them, i.e. opposite intersections.... infact the only intersection marked on that diagram is wrong...

I havent fully modeled 3 beat weave yet, I had quite an intresting day at work *shock* and Im not shure how it fits.... but ill put it up after if anyone is intrested.

in fact its a notty problem....

as for vids, errm no, the point of the model is that you can see how something is done that you cant do yet[/], I only ever saw arashi and northen adam do thease moves, and neither of them work to the scale of the full model.

which is why i did it, cos i been busting my head over thease too.

alphalight, you got a vid of arashi's workshop...?



T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:love the timing idea and the diagrams are genius biggrin

thanks

*wanders off to turn himself into a giant string ball


back

Delete

Cute Little Burning Ball
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Cute Little Burning Ball

member
Location: Here and There... mostly there...

Total posts: 101
Posted:hmmm... im with you ficklampa, i would really like to see some video from this. i guess its the lack of my english that doenst help me much to understand this thread (even with diagrams ubbcrying) or im just stupid.

Weekends don't count unless you spend them doing something completely pointless. - Calvin 'Calvin & Hobbes'

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:what I find really bizarre about atoms is that in doubles aussie style atoms have been a mainstay for as long as I can remember. In fact the crossing over buzzsaw and butterfly styles are something that sooo many people do with short doubles. Crazy its taken this long to make it to poi world smile

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:do those doubles moves transfer directly to poi josh?

i'm not sure i've ever seen any of this stuff done with doubles but i might have just been asleep wink

any chance of describing a few of the aussie two-stick atoms? ubbangel


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

ficklampa
BRONZE Member since Dec 2004

ficklampa

member
Location: sweden,stockholm.

Total posts: 81
Posted:.... confused

and feeling a bit ignored by the folks who actually understand this:P

not really the english that is my problem.
is an atom like...doing weave in diferent directions?
for example doing a weave on your side as you are doing it in front of you withouth having them clashing.


the only thing worth dying for is life itself

Delete

Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:yes and no...

it depends on how far apart your hands are..
if your hands are far apart and the poi intersect at the edge of their circles like this L then you have a box..
this is thread is about atoms whihc come together like X and so your hands are like they are in weave or ttn stuff.. the poi share the same center of spin...


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:hey flicka lampa,

an atom in this case is a move where one plane is at 90 degrees to the other. Normally the planes are in a line (well, thats the idea) but in this form, they make a cross, like a butterfly but with the x really pronounced.

the diagrans show the diffrent ways that this x acts as you move your hands around it, or you move the x around you.

Josh!

yeah, I remember doing this with staffs about 4+ years ago when I first started doing doubles, they dont even have to be short... I was trying to go from same time to butterfly smoothly and managed it by forcing everything 90 degrees, it was well smooth and painless (natural) but i abandoned it because it changed the auidence plane.... youth :rolleyes: beerchug

also a lot of other staff stuff is good for atomics, especially as the staff constantly move the cross, not just one arm at a time.

The irony about all this is ive come up with a heap of new moves and I cant practice them, cos i is injured. plenty time to catch up...

and for thoes who still dont understand dont click here cos this will highlight a major diffrence between flatland and atomic behaviours. ubbloco answers in a post to: 'the atom thread, stoners aveneue, geektown, lankashire, SCOTLAND'

where is monkey?

rev- is this what you ment about morphin atoms or are you talking about constant plane breaks, changing the atoms state infront of you, you turn it, not it turn you. ?

anyway, back to real life..... wink

t wave

p.s. Im feeling [censored] ace! everyone should be made to cycle for 30 mins twice a day five days a week. after two weeks, you think about going cycling on saturday too.... biggrin biggrin biggrin (Oh yeah! thats what I did before spinning! biggrin)



ubblol

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

PCPaul
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

newbie
Location: Portland, OR

Total posts: 4
Posted:Written by: linden rathen
*wanders off to turn himself into a giant string ball


Hehehehe... better that than a mafia-esque flaming chain-wrapped tangle! devil


Delete

Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:nx- I dunno.. to be honest I havent really read hardly any of your post... but when I was takling about morphing the atom, I was talking about right there infront of you.. your hands start floating through the different han positions as the atom keeps changing shape.. well depending on your context of changing shape.. but yeah it uses plane breaks, but I guess I never really though of it like breaks, since it flows so smoothly..

but I'll try and get around to this reading this post sometime this weekend, and I'll get back to you..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Delete

Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:He is really good man,




Non-Https Image Link




:R


POI THEO(R)IST

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yeah, he is the most amnazing spinner i ever didnt meet, but thats not an atom.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:But imagine the petals in quarterfoil anti-spin perpendicular. They seems to me crookedly smile

POI THEO(R)IST

Delete

Page: 123

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [atomcraft basic atom theory position*] we found the following similar topics.
1. Learn > Juggling > Juggling theory > siteswap tutorial 1 - basic theory *help/resource
2. Learn > Rope Dart > Throws > Basic pulls and throw's theory *help/resource
3. Learn > Meteor > Rotor with meteors > Slow motion close-up of hand positions *help/resource the basic rotor looks simple  though...
4. Forums > Atomcraft: Basic atom theory and positions [64 replies]
5. Learn > Hoop > Mini hoop > basic hoop throws *help/resource

     Show more..