Forums > Social Discussion > genetic engineering
Login/Join to Participateenthusiast
302 posts
Location: good ol@ devon. cullompton to be precise
302 posts
Location: good ol@ devon. cullompton to be precise
Posted:
so, im doing an essay on pros and cons for g.e. what are your views on the matter?
so, im doing an essay on pros and cons for g.e. what are your views on the matter?
ive learned
life is tough... but im tougher
enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Posted:
Ah. That's not what IVF is. IVF usually results in just one baby. Glad you clarified.
Ah. That's not what IVF is. IVF usually results in just one baby. Glad you clarified.
"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Amber, I disagree with statements like âthere have been thousands of cases of GM crops cross breeding with natural species and producing 'super-strains' (although people try and keep this quiet!)â because they arenât true. But I mostly agree with what you say, though perhaps differently.
There is a high environmental risk problem with âoutcrossingâ with a cross pollinating plants like canola. Canola in particularly has many brassica relatives growing as weeds in the cropping regions. There is a big difference b/t a mutant and a hybrid. Indeed, some of our greatest athletics have hybrid vigour.
Gelfing, I donât think the gene expressed is already known, you also bring a lot of unknown over as well as the desired trait. GM is different to traditional plant breeding because you are banging DNA from say a fish into a tomato. Though I think there is at least one example where this has occurred naturally. Terminator gene technology was to stop farmers keeping Monsanto patented seed and conjured up images of Frankenstein plants.
Vanzie, we are already growing GM crops like soybean, corn, canola etc. And many people are wearing GM cotton clothing.
(Edit
) Lightning, I agree with what you say about the horse etc., but I wonder if genetic engineering is a form of genetic modification (or visa versa) as in my fish/tomato example?
Certainly agree that the "Consequences of our mucking with biology are well known"
EDITED_BY: Stone (1112225176)
Amber, I disagree with statements like âthere have been thousands of cases of GM crops cross breeding with natural species and producing 'super-strains' (although people try and keep this quiet!)â because they arenât true. But I mostly agree with what you say, though perhaps differently.
There is a high environmental risk problem with âoutcrossingâ with a cross pollinating plants like canola. Canola in particularly has many brassica relatives growing as weeds in the cropping regions. There is a big difference b/t a mutant and a hybrid. Indeed, some of our greatest athletics have hybrid vigour.
Gelfing, I donât think the gene expressed is already known, you also bring a lot of unknown over as well as the desired trait. GM is different to traditional plant breeding because you are banging DNA from say a fish into a tomato. Though I think there is at least one example where this has occurred naturally. Terminator gene technology was to stop farmers keeping Monsanto patented seed and conjured up images of Frankenstein plants.
Vanzie, we are already growing GM crops like soybean, corn, canola etc. And many people are wearing GM cotton clothing.
(Edit
) Lightning, I agree with what you say about the horse etc., but I wonder if genetic engineering is a form of genetic modification (or visa versa) as in my fish/tomato example? Certainly agree that the "Consequences of our mucking with biology are well known"
EDITED_BY: Stone (1112225176)
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
er... I am not sure what I said that this responds to... (?)
and rest assured I know all that...
anyway - not being snarky here - just genuinely confused
Written by: Stone
Vanzie, we are already growing GM crops like soybean, corn, canola etc. And many people are wearing GM cotton clothing.
er... I am not sure what I said that this responds to... (?)
and rest assured I know all that...
anyway - not being snarky here - just genuinely confused
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
err how can traditional evolution get a fish gene into a tomato?
also - the argument that the way that a gene is expressed is already known before the farm trials is a crock, and is based on bebunked theory. Its been known for decades that 1 gene does not equal 1 protein, and that the same gene in different parts of an organism can often produce several different proteins. So it is *not* possible to predict the outcome of genetic modification before testing the product organism.
Additionally that argument could only be possible in a purely theoretical sense, in that the method used to insert the gene into the target string is *very* random, such that the vast majority of strings that have the gene implanted become unviable. There are many examples of GM products that have entered the free market which have subsequently been shown (by another organisation, not the patent owner) to have had all sorts of [censored] stuck in its genome, because the parent company only analysed the target section of the string, not the whole thing. Later it was shown that the genome had reversed copies of the target gene further up the sequence. This is very bad and the product in question had been on the market for years before this was found out.
You cant seperate the agenda of the GM company and its 'regulatory' body from the outcome of the technology. Sorry if the company is unethical/negligent (and they are) and the regulatory body is unethical / negligent (and they are) then the technology is unsafe, any other discussion of safe GM is science fiction.
I could go on and on and on about this, but I wont.
So yeah, Suitable GM is science fiction and whats going on here is simply money hungry companies trying to find new ways to further screw over the world.
Josh
err how can traditional evolution get a fish gene into a tomato?
also - the argument that the way that a gene is expressed is already known before the farm trials is a crock, and is based on bebunked theory. Its been known for decades that 1 gene does not equal 1 protein, and that the same gene in different parts of an organism can often produce several different proteins. So it is *not* possible to predict the outcome of genetic modification before testing the product organism.
Additionally that argument could only be possible in a purely theoretical sense, in that the method used to insert the gene into the target string is *very* random, such that the vast majority of strings that have the gene implanted become unviable. There are many examples of GM products that have entered the free market which have subsequently been shown (by another organisation, not the patent owner) to have had all sorts of [censored] stuck in its genome, because the parent company only analysed the target section of the string, not the whole thing. Later it was shown that the genome had reversed copies of the target gene further up the sequence. This is very bad and the product in question had been on the market for years before this was found out.
You cant seperate the agenda of the GM company and its 'regulatory' body from the outcome of the technology. Sorry if the company is unethical/negligent (and they are) and the regulatory body is unethical / negligent (and they are) then the technology is unsafe, any other discussion of safe GM is science fiction.
I could go on and on and on about this, but I wont.
So yeah, Suitable GM is science fiction and whats going on here is simply money hungry companies trying to find new ways to further screw over the world.
Josh
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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
And what's the deal with Hopsitals? I mean, people aren't SUPPOSED to live if they're very sick or bleeding. The human body is NOT designed for it. If we keep infringing on God's will by repairing all of these sick and injured people with bandages and casts won't we have streets full of Frankenpeople?
And what's the deal with Hopsitals? I mean, people aren't SUPPOSED to live if they're very sick or bleeding. The human body is NOT designed for it. If we keep infringing on God's will by repairing all of these sick and injured people with bandages and casts won't we have streets full of Frankenpeople?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Posted:
NYC - You are the wind beneath my wings!
NYC - You are the wind beneath my wings!
"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations
SILVER Member
c",
199 posts
Location: Ireland
c",
199 posts
Location: Ireland
Posted:
With regard to GM... Mankind stands on the brink of unimaginable prosperity and power but verges on irreversible degeneration and destruction.
It is our choice which we choose as a step in either direction is all that is needed.
With regard to GM... Mankind stands on the brink of unimaginable prosperity and power but verges on irreversible degeneration and destruction.
It is our choice which we choose as a step in either direction is all that is needed.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
GM is just like any other technology its two edged. a sword can either take a life or save a life (its called a parry :P) any technology can be turned to a bad result.
as for predicting the out come of gene splicing ill go with josh on this one - we can only guess what will happen - ok we're getting pretty good but we have no where NEAR the computational power to predict the out come of even changing one or two bits of DNA (ok im not a biologist but it follows a similar system as chaos theory its very random)
but GM is the way forward - some of the things that can be done with stem cells and gm-engineering are amazing. and while sadly a large proportion of the companies developing GM crops do act badly i cant imagine they intend to *censored* the world - they wanna make cash but they still gotta make a good product at the end of it all. outside of making franken-corn medically there is massive amounts being done but we're far from finished - after mapping all of the DNA sequence we've gotta move onto RNA which is even more varied (RNA are the carry proteins that can affect the outcome of a process as much as the DNA)
- basically with any luck we'll survive the killer franken - corn we normally do. and we have been gene-erring for years thats what breeding is we've just taken it another step.
GM is just like any other technology its two edged. a sword can either take a life or save a life (its called a parry :P) any technology can be turned to a bad result.
as for predicting the out come of gene splicing ill go with josh on this one - we can only guess what will happen - ok we're getting pretty good but we have no where NEAR the computational power to predict the out come of even changing one or two bits of DNA (ok im not a biologist but it follows a similar system as chaos theory its very random)
but GM is the way forward - some of the things that can be done with stem cells and gm-engineering are amazing. and while sadly a large proportion of the companies developing GM crops do act badly i cant imagine they intend to *censored* the world - they wanna make cash but they still gotta make a good product at the end of it all. outside of making franken-corn medically there is massive amounts being done but we're far from finished - after mapping all of the DNA sequence we've gotta move onto RNA which is even more varied (RNA are the carry proteins that can affect the outcome of a process as much as the DNA)
- basically with any luck we'll survive the killer franken - corn we normally do. and we have been gene-erring for years thats what breeding is we've just taken it another step.
back
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Oops Lightning, I think I got a bit confused with genetic engineering and genetic modification (have edited last reply).
Hi Vanize it just seemed like you were discussing something futuristic "that we have to be wise about using", when GMO are already widespread. Like in Australia some States have a monitorum on GM canola, but no one seems to say anything about all the GM cotton grown. Admittedly the cotton is mostly for fibre; not sure if they still feed cotton waste to animals.
Josh, I trying to remember the example where GM has occurred naturally. I agree that âall sorts of junk are also carried acrossâ. But can you suggest a few examples where these GM products have entered the free market and have been detrimental?
Unfortunately, some companies have been negligent in their approach to GMOs grrr. But there are still the public funded, Government backed breeding programs in Aust. that have more integrity. So perhaps, itâs more complicated that just pointing the finger at âmoney hungry companies trying to find new ways to further screw over the worldâ. Certainly CSIRO and the Waite Institute (Adelaide) are more interested in public good with projects like incorporating disease resistance to reduce pesticide use etc.
Oops
Lightning, I think I got a bit confused with genetic engineering and genetic modification (have edited last reply). Hi Vanize it just seemed like you were discussing something futuristic "that we have to be wise about using", when GMO are already widespread. Like in Australia some States have a monitorum on GM canola, but no one seems to say anything about all the GM cotton grown. Admittedly the cotton is mostly for fibre; not sure if they still feed cotton waste to animals.
Josh, I trying to remember the example where GM has occurred naturally. I agree that âall sorts of junk are also carried acrossâ. But can you suggest a few examples where these GM products have entered the free market and have been detrimental?
Unfortunately, some companies have been negligent in their approach to GMOs grrr. But there are still the public funded, Government backed breeding programs in Aust. that have more integrity. So perhaps, itâs more complicated that just pointing the finger at âmoney hungry companies trying to find new ways to further screw over the worldâ. Certainly CSIRO and the Waite Institute (Adelaide) are more interested in public good with projects like incorporating disease resistance to reduce pesticide use etc.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
ah... I get it now - I am perfectly aware there are GM crops and such, and frankly I don't have much of a problem with them and they aren't really what I mean by the future and genetic engineering, though they are certainly the first step in that direction.
someday we will take the evolution of the human species directly into our own hands. it will start small and with lack of confidence, first with trying to eliminate genetic disorders. some things will backfire on us as we learn the ropes. slowly we will gain confidence as we learn how all the different variables interact, and genetic engineering will go from research to art form (but probably never the exact science we hope for).
while natural selection does indeed still apply to the human race, it is in a less obvious and arguably less effective form than it applies to species not human or protected by humans (domesticated plants and animals are in this "protected" group for example). Humans are currently running a risk of allowing genetic disorders to become endemic because our technology lets us compensate and/or cover them now when in the past obvious carriers of genetic traits would have had difficulty reproducing due to various factors which are no longer significant.
Is it coincidence that we begin to learn how gentics work and how to manipulate them at just the time our technology makes genetic disorders a sort of threat?
Absolutely not. we have learned so much about genetics precisely because of these genetic conditions. We naturally want to fix things that are disavantageous too.
Therefor (and this leap of logic may not be obvious to all) I beleive that genetic engineering is not only something we should do, but something we are supposed to do.
As they say - you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I beleive Gaia has led us to the water of knowledge that is GE, and now it is up to us to drink of it (but not drown in it). Some will say the water is poisoned. maybe it is, but are we to just sit and wonder about that, or do we take a wee sip and see if it can help quench our thirst without making us ill?
ah... I get it now - I am perfectly aware there are GM crops and such, and frankly I don't have much of a problem with them and they aren't really what I mean by the future and genetic engineering, though they are certainly the first step in that direction.
someday we will take the evolution of the human species directly into our own hands. it will start small and with lack of confidence, first with trying to eliminate genetic disorders. some things will backfire on us as we learn the ropes. slowly we will gain confidence as we learn how all the different variables interact, and genetic engineering will go from research to art form (but probably never the exact science we hope for).
while natural selection does indeed still apply to the human race, it is in a less obvious and arguably less effective form than it applies to species not human or protected by humans (domesticated plants and animals are in this "protected" group for example). Humans are currently running a risk of allowing genetic disorders to become endemic because our technology lets us compensate and/or cover them now when in the past obvious carriers of genetic traits would have had difficulty reproducing due to various factors which are no longer significant.
Is it coincidence that we begin to learn how gentics work and how to manipulate them at just the time our technology makes genetic disorders a sort of threat?
Absolutely not. we have learned so much about genetics precisely because of these genetic conditions. We naturally want to fix things that are disavantageous too.
Therefor (and this leap of logic may not be obvious to all) I beleive that genetic engineering is not only something we should do, but something we are supposed to do.
As they say - you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I beleive Gaia has led us to the water of knowledge that is GE, and now it is up to us to drink of it (but not drown in it). Some will say the water is poisoned. maybe it is, but are we to just sit and wonder about that, or do we take a wee sip and see if it can help quench our thirst without making us ill?
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Getting to the other side 
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
Some of that is already being done. There are plenty of couples that are opting not to have a particular baby because it has some sort of defect. I even read about such a couple sueing some doctors because they failed to properly disclose deformities in utero that their child had. They would have aborted their baby boy had the doctors told them he was going to be deformed. They are suing for negligence because the doctor didn't notice the deformities.
Some of that is already being done. There are plenty of couples that are opting not to have a particular baby because it has some sort of defect. I even read about such a couple sueing some doctors because they failed to properly disclose deformities in utero that their child had. They would have aborted their baby boy had the doctors told them he was going to be deformed. They are suing for negligence because the doctor didn't notice the deformities.
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
yeah - but there is a difference between genetic selection and genetic engineering...
yeah - but there is a difference between genetic selection and genetic engineering...
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
You raise some good points about the future vanize
GE has always seemed inevitable to me. Itâs like itâs part our genetic program to reach beyond the boundaries, in a similar way to our conquests into space. As a strength itâs possibly also a weakness. I think we have reached the point where our conquests have just about ruined the planet because have little concern for anything but ourselves.
You raise some good points about the future vanize
GE has always seemed inevitable to me. Itâs like itâs part our genetic program to reach beyond the boundaries, in a similar way to our conquests into space. As a strength itâs possibly also a weakness. I think we have reached the point where our conquests have just about ruined the planet because have little concern for anything but ourselves.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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